45 replies to this topic

[Thunder Child]

Okay, so with the new ECM discussion raging on, I've decided it's prudent to repost a thread I made a while back, because people seem to be confused about what C3 ACTUALLY DOES.

So, here it is.

Most of us have heard the complaint at least once. "LRMs wouldn't be so bad if PGI hadn't given us free C3"

People seem to assume that C3 was some magic box that allowed LRMs to be fired indirectly, but this is not the case. LRMs have ALWAYS (well, since The Battletech Compendium at least) had the ability to fire indirectly, with the aid of a spotter.

What C3 ACTUALLY did, was allow Inner Sphere mechs to compete on a nearly even footing with Clan mechs, in terms of weapon ranges.
Yes, they payed a tonnage Tax (5 tons for a Master Unit, 1 ton for a Slave Unit), but it allowed them to fire Long Range Shots as though they were Short Range shots, provided a member of the C3 Unit was within Short Range.
Now, in TT, this meant that the Weapon Skill Modifier was reduced from +4 to +0. I realize that MWO is based on "Skill" rather than random numbers, which is why if C3 were to be implemented in MWO it would have to function slightly differently.

I propose that C3 provide the same Buffs as a Clan Targeting computer, with each unit in range increasing the TC Tier by 1, provided they can link to a Master unit. The Master unit would be capped at TC V, with each Slave starting at TC I, and stacking up to TC IV.

TL:DR. Please stop blaming the poor C3 unit for LRMs. It was designed to buff all weapons, and would balance IS against Clans nicely if PGI ever decided to implement it.

Edited by Thunder Child, 16 July 2015 - 12:18 PM.

[stjobe]

Yep. A C3 network did one thing and one thing only: Let its members fire at a target with the range modifier of the closest C3 member (that had LoS to the target).

Every other modifier was taken from the firing unit (movement and terrain modifiers), and of course LoS and max range was still from the firing unit.

Edited by stjobe, 16 July 2015 - 12:25 PM.

[ShadowWolf Kell]

The information sharing is already innate. They should add in C3 in all it's glory and swap the information sharing to apply only to lances running a C3 Master/Slave combo.

[Thunder Child]

ShadowWolf Kell, on 16 July 2015 - 12:25 PM, said:

The information sharing is already innate. They should add in C3 in all it's glory and swap the information sharing to apply only to lances running a C3 Master/Slave combo.

Target sharing was a feature of Basic Sensors, and should remain as such. C3 was developed to enhance the basic targeting functions (hence the huge tonnage costs) of Inner Sphere mechs, so that they could compete with Clan Mechs. The logical implementation is to give IS the capabilities on Clan Targeting Computers, since CoF is not a thing in MWO. Would be very useful in CW and Group queues. Not quite so much in Pugs, but I know my Atlas would always run a C3 Master.

Edited by Thunder Child, 16 July 2015 - 12:31 PM.

[Rushmoar]

ShadowWolf Kell, on 16 July 2015 - 12:25 PM, said:

The information sharing is already innate. They should add in C3 in all it's glory and swap the information sharing to apply only to lances running a C3 Master/Slave combo.

I would like to see only the C3 Slave come in but just call it "C3." The master unit can be the Command Console. Right now the Command Console is pretty weak. Let it share info for the entire team. Give it a reason to also protect the mechs that equip the Command Console as well.

Thunder Child, on 16 July 2015 - 12:30 PM, said:

Target sharing was a feature of Basic Sensors, and should remain as such. C3 was developed to enhance the basic targeting functions (hence the huge tonnage costs) of Inner Sphere mechs, so that they could compete with Clan Mechs. The logical implementation is to give IS the capabilities on Clan Targeting Computers, since CoF is not a thing in MWO. Would be very useful in CW and Group queues. Not quite so much in Pugs, but I know my Atlas would always run a C3 Master.

Well I would ask the question why does everything have to be an exact translation from Table Top. Table Top (turn base game) and MWO (real time game) are two separate entities. Armor and ammo values are different, we have a Speed Tweak feature in game, and different heat (ghost heat) values. Plus jump Jets need a revamp to help the bigger mechs.

Lets just try to introduce things or mechanics that will help game play be more interesting and fun even if it isn't exactly like it was in TT or lore.

Edited by Rushmoar, 16 July 2015 - 01:22 PM.

[Cyborne Elemental]

C3 might be a good balancing factor vs Clan Targeting computers.. IF
We had convergence as part of the core weapon mechanic.

Really no point in even bringing up C3-M/S without talking about convergence and other targeting factors that influence the accuracy of weapons.

So many things would have to be done to make C3 function like it should, and if its not going to be done right then don't do it at all.

[Thunder Child]

Mister D, on 16 July 2015 - 01:10 PM, said:

C3 might be a good balancing factor vs Clan Targeting computers.. IF
We had convergence as part of the core weapon mechanic.

Really no point in even bringing up C3-M/S without talking about convergence and other targeting factors that influence the accuracy of weapons.

So many things would have to be done to make C3 function like it should, and if its not going to be done right then don't do it at all.

While I agree, if we were to keep C3 true to Lore, there is no reason C3 couldn't be implemented in a completely different fashion to how it was ever meant to be. Just look at the rest of the game.....
Which is why I suggested it being the Inner Sphere version of Targeting Computers. It would buff teamwork (cause Teamwork OP), still have NO EFFECT on LRMs, and remove yet another point of contention between IS an Clan.

[Ashvins]

Thunder Child, on 16 July 2015 - 12:17 PM, said:

Okay, so with the new ECM discussion raging on, I've decided it's prudent to repost a thread I made a while back, because people seem to be confused about what C3 ACTUALLY DOES.

So, here it is.

Most of us have heard the complaint at least once. "LRMs wouldn't be so bad if PGI hadn't given us free C3"

People seem to assume that C3 was some magic box that allowed LRMs to be fired indirectly, but this is not the case. LRMs have ALWAYS (well, since The Battletech Compendium at least) had the ability to fire indirectly, with the aid of a spotter.

What C3 ACTUALLY did, was allow Inner Sphere mechs to compete on a nearly even footing with Clan mechs, in terms of weapon ranges.
Yes, they payed a tonnage Tax (5 tons for a Master Unit, 1 ton for a Slave Unit), but it allowed them to fire Long Range Shots as though they were Short Range shots, provided a member of the C3 Unit was within Short Range.
Now, in TT, this meant that the Weapon Skill Modifier was reduced from +4 to +0. I realize that MWO is based on "Skill" rather than random numbers, which is why if C3 were to be implemented in MWO it would have to function slightly differently.

I propose that C3 provide the same Buffs as a Clan Targeting computer, with each unit in range increasing the TC Tier by 1, provided they can link to a Master unit. The Master unit would be capped at TC V, with each Slave starting at TC I, and stacking up to TC IV.

TL:DR. Please stop blaming the poor C3 unit for LRMs. It was designed to buff all weapons, and would balance IS against Clans nicely if PGI ever decided to implement it.

You are totally WRONG !!!

C3 computers allowed sharing of target data. Yes that means if you could not see it you could not shoot it without a C3 computer. Research what you are talking about before spouting off again please. C3 info.

[Thunder Child]

Ashvins, on 16 July 2015 - 03:03 PM, said:

You are totally WRONG !!!

C3 computers allowed sharing of target data. Yes that means if you could not see it you could not shoot it without a C3 computer. Research what you are talking about before spouting off again please. C3 info.

Don't have a digital copy of my Battletech Compendium, but I am in fact correct.
Sarna says that C3 cannot share with C3i, not that you cannot share without C3. C3 is an ADVANCED targeting and sharing system, that augments the target acquisition and information sharing of BASIC Sensors. Sarna is also a Wiki and tends to get edited from time to time by people that misinterpret the meanings of things.

But in the Rule Sets, C3 is used for modifying combat results.

Edited by Thunder Child, 16 July 2015 - 03:18 PM.

[Scout Derek]

Could work, would though have to tweet them like mad men to get them noticed on this equipment.

On top of that we, however, May not be impressed with the results should it come into the game.

It is a good idea, but still kind of shaky since pgi has implemented some things to be different than what they were back then.

[Ashvins]

Direct from Battletech Master rules.
http://i713.photobucket.com/albums/ww132/leladrin/BT%20los%20rule_zps0zfgxjy5.jpg

No LOS not attack as per the BT rules. So you do have a version of C3 computer given for free to all mechs. Allowing indirect fire of LRM's. Arrow IV and Long Tom Thunder LRM ect were indirect fire but they attacked a Hex not a mech.

There are NO RULES for LRM indirect fire until the Battle Tech Compendium which allows it but with negatives to hit for using a spotter, and all terrain modifiers. Otherwise doable but not with the accuracy we enjoy in MWO. C3 removed the spotter penalty and terrain penalty's giving you what we have in MWO atm.

Edited by Ashvins, 16 July 2015 - 04:10 PM.

[Thunder Child]

As per Battletech Master Rules, Pg 85.



And as per the C3 rules on page 135, also of the Battletech Master Rules.



Your move.

Edited by Thunder Child, 16 July 2015 - 03:54 PM.

[MauttyKoray]

For the TL;DR crowd or those that still don't understand. It basically allowed Mech's to improve their accuracy with long range shots by using all the C3 units in a network to improve the targeting computer's calculations.

[Ashvins]

Damm Photo bucket messing up and lost my post because of it. (I found the indirect fire rules for lrm's) Anyway, LRM indirect fire had a penalty for it (None in MWO) not a big one mind you but it did have one. add in the spotter's movement & terrain penalties and it was a bad situation. Only done if you had ammo to burn. In MWO we have none of those penalties. If the spotter and the LRM boat had to go through the process of locking the target and LRM's spread like an LBX in MWO for indirect fire then it would be close to as intended in BT.

As it is, indirect fire LRM's have a big advantage compared to BT rules. And as your fine finding of rules state C3 master=Tag Slave =normal IDF rules.

Problem is MWO does not use those IDF rules in any way. IDF in MWO is just like you had LOS. Hence the Problem with LRM's in MWO IMO.

I'll drop my "C3" comments at this point and focus on the lack of IDF adjustments to LRM's instead.

But from when I first started playing BT (back when there was only the boxed set) there was no indirect fire at all. And by the time the Compendium came out (1994 or so IIRC) I had moved to computer gaming altogether. Forgive me for getting old Don't recommend it for anyone save maybe your enemies.

[Thunder Child]

All good. Now we are on the same page. I agree that LRMs need a rework, as the current implementation is either OP, or completely negated. Personally, I like the idea of having a targeting system similar to most FPS Grenade throwing systems, where you point at the sky and lob. LRMs could then be buffed to be effective Direct Fire Weapons, without being the Hammer of God.

But that isn't the discussion point of this particular thread. This is about C3, how we don't have it, and how we could implement it instead.

[Strum Wealh]

Thunder Child, on 16 July 2015 - 03:52 PM, said:

As per Battletech Master Rules, Pg 85.



And as per the C3 rules on page 135, also of the Battletech Master Rules.



Your move.

Additionally, there is page 39 of TechManual:

"BattleMechs are also not islands unto themselves. They can share sensor data to some extent, allowing greater sensory performance than a single ’Mech can achieve. The specialized equipment of a C3 system takes this to new heights with direct battlefield applications, but all BattleMechs can at least receive basic sensory data from a unit mate."

[Thunder Child]

Strum Wealh, on 16 July 2015 - 04:46 PM, said:

Additionally, there is page 39 of TechManual:

"BattleMechs are also not islands unto themselves. They can share sensor data to some extent, allowing greater sensory performance than a single ’Mech can achieve. The specialized equipment of a C3 system takes this to new heights with direct battlefield applications, but all BattleMechs can at least receive basic sensory data from a unit mate."

Thankyou for that Strum Wealh. Now that I know which book that is from, I shall have to acquire it for future reference.

[LordNothing]

i like the way it was done in MWLL, as much as the tt players disagree with it.

[Thunder Child]

Could you explain how it worked in MWLL? I am intensely curious.

[Trev Firestorm]

Ashvins, on 16 July 2015 - 03:43 PM, said:

Direct from Battletech Master rules.
http://i713.photobucket.com/albums/ww132/leladrin/BT%20los%20rule_zps0zfgxjy5.jpg

No LOS not attack as per the BT rules. So you do have a version of C3 computer given for free to all mechs. Allowing indirect fire of LRM's. Arrow IV and Long Tom Thunder LRM ect were indirect fire but they attacked a Hex not a mech.

There are NO RULES for LRM indirect fire until the Battle Tech Compendium which allows it but with negatives to hit for using a spotter, and all terrain modifiers. Otherwise doable but not with the accuracy we enjoy in MWO. C3 removed the spotter penalty and terrain penalty's giving you what we have in MWO atm.

Not sure about now but at one point I'm pretty sure we had a spread penalty on IDF lrms.