158 replies to this topic

[Anjian]

GonaDie, on 20 July 2015 - 08:57 AM, said:

''A thinking man's shooter''

CoD kids don't want to think, they want to shoot.

As simple as that.

Thinking Man's Shooter can be successful. But the entire concept is hijacked by World of Tanks, and to a lesser extent, War Thunder.

[ShinobiHunter]

N0MAD, on 20 July 2015 - 03:37 PM, said:

Wot may disagree with you and what is the WoT population?

I haven't a clue, but I'm it's a small percentage compared to CS:GO and CoD. And tanks are much more popular in western culture than mechs...

[Atlai]

Spr1ggan, on 19 July 2015 - 06:15 PM, said:

Wasn't Armored Core kinda popular?

Armored Core, despite being ridiculously unrealistic, is actually my second favorite mech series ever (the first being BT). They were very popular a few years ago, but the recent releases have been... ok, at best. Its the same studio that makes Dark Souls, so they have a level of difficulty that makes it hard for non-hardcore gamers to enjoy.

InspectorG, on 19 July 2015 - 06:34 PM, said:

Moreso in Japan? If i remember right?

Yeah, they are actually still very popular over there from what I can tell.

Moldur, on 19 July 2015 - 06:42 PM, said:

There hasn't been a really good one for awhile. That's about it.

... yup... dont get me wrong, ACv and VD were good. But nowhere near the first few or ACFA.

The missions unfortunately suffer from being really short and more often than not bland. But still in For Answer you honestly feel like a god, which is exhilarating.

[Anjian]

Flash Frame, on 20 July 2015 - 08:21 AM, said:

The problem is the western market doesn't see Mecha in the same way as the Eastern Japanese market.

Mecha has a HUGE fanbase in Japan because of Gundam, Macross, and various other amazing mecha that's been literally part of their culture for quite some time now. From Gigantor and AstroBoy, on up to current Super Sentai, Kamen Rider, and various other anime and manga and drama's.

Here in the west, we've always been more about the personal soldier, the lone guy who can fight. Think of who our hero's were in the 80's... Rambo-esque, macho guys who could mow down entire groups of enemy's by shouldering a machine gun and going to town.

That's a far cry from focusing on the pilot of a machine that does it for them. Westerner's tend towards the Rambo-esque... hince why FPS games are so popular. 1 guy can take on practically an entire army. That's a much stronger power fantasy than getting in a giant robot and stomping around.

Don't get me wrong, both are power fantasy's. and I absolutely LOVE mecha, hell my absolute favorite gundam series is Mobile Suit Gundam: 08th MS team. Which is very gritty, very "Real Robot" talking about logistics, and resupply and making sure this old GM is operational [IE a lot of what IS mechwarriors have to think about with their old inherited machines.]

But to the average westerner, that's just not that interesting.

Japanese mecha is backed by a powerful lore, with excellent written narratives and stories (Char Aznable and so on). These stories are constantly expressed in anime, manga and light novels. Their attention to detail is amazing.

For example, quite frequently in any Gundam series, we see the mechs do a lot of things in between fighting. They are helping in reconstruction, building bases, repairing space colonies, even directing deck traffic in and out of carrier ships. They got a genuine vision behind them, what a world with real mechs ought to be and how they affect our world beyond warfare.

Another example of vision is the Patlabor series. Think of a future semi-cyberpunk world. Think of the police in that world. But instead of police cars and guns, they are armed with mechs. If they are not coping with crime, they use those mechs to deal with situations of emergency.

Of course, Eastern literature has a deep profound influence in the shaping the literature behind anime and manga. Its not hard to see the fingerprints of Romance of the Three Kingdoms in Gundam, Legend of the Galactic Heroes, etc,.

Another profound influence to mecha anime and manga is the state of mind in Japan in 1945, when it was inevitable that they would lose the war. At that time, they felt they were surrounded by overwhelming forces, their civilization about to be destroyed. That feeling of desperation, to be invaded by overwhelming forces, and only a miracle can save them, keeps getting recycled and repackaged as key themes in many mecha anime as well as fantasy (Knights of Sidonia, Attack on Titan, Fafnir in the Azure). Everytime the Survey Corp heads out, or the Knights fly off from Sidonia to face the Gauna, they suffer casualty rates worst than Red Shirts. (A movie example of this theme is Edge of Tomorrow --- its based from a Japanese light novel, All You need is Kill).

Then there is also the fact that there is one important Westerner that had a profound indirect but powerful influence in the mindcraft of Japanese mecha --- Gerry Anderson and series like the Thunderbirds. This led to those secret bases that hides and maintains those giant robots, elite teams of youngsters piloting them, the geniuns scientists running the operation and constantly upgrading those mechs.

The Western side of mecha related storytelling, if there is any at all besides Battletech, is to frame it around space opera, wherein contrast, Japanese mecha narratives rarely leave the Solar System at all. That is not exactly a bad idea at all, and space opera produces good entertainment. But the narrative form is often published only in books, not comics, movies and TV series, where they might have a wider audience. Couple that with the enormous cost of producing a live action TV series, while in Japan you can get a lot of exposure with relatively inexpensive to produce anime, you will see why in the West, many good stories just stay in books, but in Japan, many niche light novels and manga are turned into anime, which not only has a big audience in Japan but is rapidly growing around the world.

Plus in Japan, you have a toy industry that likes to rapidly exploit mecha into sellable toys and model kits, which they are huge success. That's why they keep on making Gundam series, and beyond that, successful mecha anime and game series are often turned to figures and models (Armored Core, Macross, Evangelion, etc,.) The money in the toy industry also helps fuel that mecha interest and corporate powers to ensure that continuing interest (Bandai, etc,.) And for that I am pretty sure you heard of the Transformers.

[Strum Wealh]

SaltBeef, on 19 July 2015 - 07:14 PM, said:

We need a Picture of that Wolf Hottie in her Ceremonial Wolf outfit! You know the one that welcomed Phelan Kell into the Wolf Clan. Hubba Hubba Wink wink!

SaltBeef, on 19 July 2015 - 07:25 PM, said:

I am Serious add an infantry section too this game, cha ching! Toad, infantry, pirates, mercs, special forces infiltration teams, just a different game mode attatch it to the game. Vehicles, storylines from lore and Wolf Ceremonial uniforms MmmmmmmmmhhhhMmmmnmmmmmh!

Leiska, on 20 July 2015 - 05:58 PM, said:

Is there something special about Clan Wolf uniforms?

"Dressed in a tight-fitting body suit of white leather that left her arms and legs bare, she might have been an apparition. Silver studded the costume, and long leather thongs hung down like a loincloth. Knee-length Mech Warrior boots of polished silver encased her lower legs, and gauntlets of fine steel mesh covered her hands and arms to the elbow. A short cloak of white wolf-fur fell from her shoulders to midback. A silver wolf's-head clasp with ruby eyes fastened the cloak at her throat.
Though Phelan thought he recognized her form and stance, he could not be certain because the woman wore a mask. It reminded him of nothing so much as the fierce visage of his Wolfhound BattleMech. Worked with the greatest of skill, the white enameled mask took the form of a wolf's head." - description of the ceremonial outfit that Ranna Kerensky wore during Phelan Kell's adoption ceremony into Clan Wolf, from the epilogue of Lethal Heritage

"The mercenary half-expected Ranna to leave his side, but she remained in place as another stepped forward. Obviously a woman, this one's costume matched Ranna's in all but color, yet flattered her figure equally. Where Ranna wore white, this MechWarrior wore black, including the abbreviated cloak of wolf-fur. Red hair cascaded onto her shoulders and Phelan saw a scarlet hourglass symbol on the abdomen of her leather clothing." - description of the ceremonial outfit that Natasha Kerensky wore during Phelan Kell's adoption ceremony into Clan Wolf, from the epilogue of Lethal Heritage

Basically, the Clan Wolf ceremonial uniform consists of a sleeveless leather bodysuit, knee-high boots, elbow-length gloves, a wolf-fur half-cape, a leather loincloth, and a wolf's-head mask.
I'm not sure why SaltBeef seems to have such an interest in it, but to each their own, I suppose.

[SaltBeef]

Fit chicks in tight leather outfits man!! Hello McFLY!!!, KNOCK KNOCK HELLO!!!

[Anjian]

Mason West, on 20 July 2015 - 06:43 PM, said:

Armored Core, despite being ridiculously unrealistic, is actually my second favorite mech series ever (the first being BT). They were very popular a few years ago, but the recent releases have been... ok, at best. Its the same studio that makes Dark Souls, so they have a level of difficulty that makes it hard for non-hardcore gamers to enjoy.

Yeah, they are actually still very popular over there from what I can tell.

... yup... dont get me wrong, ACv and VD were good. But nowhere near the first few or ACFA.

The missions unfortunately suffer from being really short and more often than not bland. But still in For Answer you honestly feel like a god, which is exhilarating.

Dark Souls is literally Armored Core turned into a human being. The entire Armored Core style, its darkness, the faceless dark god like protagonist --- are all reflected in Dark Souls.

AC4 and AC4A are my best ever mech games from a single player perspective. These two particular games are directed by the same guy who directed Dark Souls and Bloodbourne.

ACV and ACVD are directed by a different person, the same person who directed Chromehounds. In some ways, ACV and ACVD is CH2 and CH3, and that rubbed AC fans the wrong way. But I greatly enjoyed these two series both from a single player and online perspective where they had a real Community Warfare system going. This person now works with Square Enix to produce the next Front Mission game. That is another series I enjoyed, though the core of it, is based on turn based strategy (the final attempt to turn Front Mission into a simulator action game didn't work but they seem to want to try it again; Square Enix owns this franchise.)

There are other games that are not obviously mech games, but they incorporate major mech elements. For example the series Lost Planet. On the surface it is a first person shooter, but there are also a whole bunch of mechs and exoskeletons to choose from. In some ways, Lost Planet is the spiritual ancestor of Titanfall. Another is Xenoblade Chronicles. I have not played the first one, but the second appears to incorporate mechs even though its basically an RPG. This reminds me of its fabled ancestor, Xenogears, which is also an RPG with mech elements.

[Damocles]

Strum Wealh, on 20 July 2015 - 07:20 PM, said:

Basically, the Clan Wolf ceremonial uniform consists of a sleeveless leather bodysuit, knee-high boots, elbow-length gloves, a wolf-fur half-cape, a leather loincloth, and a wolf's-head mask.
I'm not sure why SaltBeef seems to have such an interest in it, but to each their own, I suppose.

sleeveless and legless....so either (probably given 1980s) leotard but also more modernly booty-shortish leather suit and knee high boots.....

sounds awful.

[Atlai]

Anjian, on 20 July 2015 - 07:28 PM, said:

Dark Souls is literally Armored Core turned into a human being. The entire Armored Core style, its darkness, the faceless dark god like protagonist --- are all reflected in Dark Souls.

AC4 and AC4A are my best ever mech games from a single player perspective. These two particular games are directed by the same guy who directed Dark Souls and Bloodbourne.

ACV and ACVD are directed by a different person, the same person who directed Chromehounds. In some ways, ACV and ACVD is CH2 and CH3, and that rubbed AC fans the wrong way. But I greatly enjoyed these two series both from a single player and online perspective where they had a real Community Warfare system going. This person now works with Square Enix to produce the next Front Mission game. That is another series I enjoyed, though the core of it, is based on turn based strategy (the final attempt to turn Front Mission into a simulator action game didn't work but they seem to want to try it again; Square Enix owns this franchise.)

There are other games that are not obviously mech games, but they incorporate major mech elements. For example the series Lost Planet. On the surface it is a first person shooter, but there are also a whole bunch of mechs and exoskeletons to choose from. In some ways, Lost Planet is the spiritual ancestor of Titanfall. Another is Xenoblade Chronicles. I have not played the first one, but the second appears to incorporate mechs even though its basically an RPG. This reminds me of its fabled ancestor, Xenogears, which is also an RPG with mech elements.

And that is why I love Dark Souls. I played Armored Core first so I was kinda ready for the challenge DS and Bloodborne presented.

Same here for ACVD, I literally play through that game every year at least once. I have done this since its release year.

I didn't mind personally ACV-VD, but that was only once I got over the fact I was no longer a NEXT.

Oh god I remember Xenogears, I'm actually currently re-playing Xenosaga, which is another series that I love. Saga has decent mech, but it is much more space opera with regards to people, rather than mechs. Although it does have some good mechs.

Lost planet was... cool? I guess. I liked it.

[SaltBeef]

http://www.bing.com/...0S1g&ajaxhist=0

[Brody319]

I think a large number of mech games haven't been built to last. Mechwarrior Online is one of the exceptions and has lasted.

[Lily from animove]

Kristov Kerensky, on 20 July 2015 - 04:42 PM, said:

This is wrong, there were never 1 million MW players on the Zone, the MOST popular game on the Zone was Asheron's Call, with 15,000 players, per MicroSoft. The 1 million players was taken from another quote, which was the number of people who USED the Zone total, which is why MS shut the thing down, it was a money pit and that's all.

Mecha titles of any sort have never been popular in the US, PC or console, doesn't matter, they just aren't, and the reasons why have been touched on multiple times in this thread. BattleTech related titles don't do well anywhere, they never have, Japan being no exception as the Japanese prefer the more organic and sexy mecha types from Gundam, Macross and the like, the Mechs of BattleTech are too ugly, too boxy, and not sexy at all.

WE obviously love the genre, some of us having been playing it since the 80s with TT and every single PC and console game ever created for the BTech genre, but we have to remember, it's a VERY small niche market, always has been, always will be.

MW2 titles, never hit 10k players in any of the leagues, MW3 and MW4 barely hit 10k players in their leagues. Quake games were topping hundreds of thousands at the same time. More people bought, and this isn't a joke, Deer Hunter than bought all the MW titles combined.

I was amazed when PGI announced MWO, I never thought I'd see another MW title in my lifetime outside of the mods like MW:LL. It wasn't ever a popular game, and only MW2 ever really made a serious profit for it's publisher. Be happy we have MWO, we need to do whatever we can to make it succeed, because if it fails, we won't see another MW title.

lol, the MW 2 and 3 + 4 days, rarely anyone in germany had a internet connection to play online. since it was pay per time/data rate. So hardly anyone really played online then. And when internet went cheap, there was no successor to those games, thats why MW titles never went really popular amongst online gameplay. There is missing a title for around 2004 - 2006 that would have kept the MW playerbase up.

And when i had a internet conneciton MW 3 already didn't run properly anymore on Windows XP. and MW4, the Mechs were too ugly to bother with.

[Anjian]

Back when I was playing MW4 and its sequels, I can't remember anytime more than a few dozen people in the lobby, which was generally like 2x more than the people in the Heavy Gear 2 lobby. Back then there was no randomization, no matchmaking, and the player base was small enough that you can recognize the names of the good players, and join the team with them. So naturally all the good players know who the good players is. This is what you would "stacking". Suffice to say the results can be horrible to those on the other side of it, and stacking is the reason why modern matchmaking algorithms are invented. As expected, the lobby over time, grew smaller and smaller though it never died --- but at some point, I did stop when the day came that EVE Online turned from beta and officially opened its doors. After that I never played a mech game until Chromehounds.

Strangely enough, there were Japanese players in the MW4 lobbies. While mecha is a popular genre in Japan, there is however the lack of a proper online PvP game on it, particularly on the PC. Some of those players I still remember from my Heavy Gear 2 days --- the Japanese would come at a specific time, because their Internet then was metered, and was only limited at certain times of the night (Midnight to 3). They would come and leave like clockwork. Again, why are Japanese playing Heavy Gear? Because at that time, they didn't have an online mech game, and Heavy Gear looked close enough to what they are accustomed to. Its not surprising many of the HG players were sporting names from Gundam series. Given that I was able to recognize some of these players moving to MW4, it shows just how small the player base was. But the fact that these players bridged the time gap between Heavy Gear 2 and Mechwarrior 4, also showed how persistant they are.

When I first launched into the Chromehounds community warfare, there was probably at least 250,000 to 350,000 players. It was an XBox exclusive, made by the guys who developed Armored Core, and it was supposed to be the game that can spearhead the XBox 360 market acceptance in Japan. I wasn't in Japan but I did buy my XBox 360 just to play it. The XBox 360 didn't really take off despite exclusive titles for it, including a Tales and a Star Ocean game, but there was a significant number of Japanese players who bought the game and the XBox. Since there was no splinter in the game servers, the US squads can battle the Japanese squads, and there are quite a number of them, and they were good. Sadly without recurring updates, the game started from a peak and gradually and slowly went downhill from there.

ACV and ACVD, besides the single player game, I also joined the online part for deathmatches, the community warfare (the squads with their loud anime inspired logos) but best of all, the coop, helping other players succeed their missions, especially the boss ones, and randomly encounter the special online bosses. Kind of like an RPG raid party, but with mechs. And the bosses are usuall some super giant mech that can kill you in one shot and take a lot of punishment, one of the missions are against Aegis like missile cruisers. A lot of those special coops against the bosses turned out to be complete wipes but once in a while you succeed and its very satisfying. (I hate you Exusia).

Got to say, after all these years, I have never given up the search for the perfect mech game.

Edited by Anjian, 21 July 2015 - 01:47 AM.

[Hit the Deck]

Anjian, on 21 July 2015 - 01:43 AM, said:

...
Strangely enough, there were Japanese players in the MW4 lobbies. While mecha is a popular genre in Japan, there is however the lack of a proper online PvP game on it, particularly on the PC. Some of those players I still remember from my Heavy Gear 2 days --- the Japanese would come at a specific time, because their Internet then was metered, and was only limited at certain times of the night (Midnight to 3). They would come and leave like clockwork. Again, why are Japanese playing Heavy Gear? Because at that time, they didn't have an online mech game, and Heavy Gear looked close enough to what they are accustomed to. Its not surprising many of the HG players were sporting names from Gundam series. Given that I was able to recognize some of these players moving to MW4, it shows just how small the player base was. But the fact that these players bridged the time gap between Heavy Gear 2 and Mechwarrior 4, also showed how persistant they are.
....

I one read that MechWarrior was actually popular in Japan at one time. Dunno about now.

[Anjian]

Mechs have gradually fallen out of favor in Japan, even in anime and manga, and it been that way gradually since the Internet age. Moe, harems, Naruto, Bleach, One Piece, RPGs, fantasy themes, these for the most part have taken over. That has also shown in the weakening of the mech franchises over there.

[Hit the Deck]

Hit the Deck, on 21 July 2015 - 01:51 AM, said:

I one read that MechWarrior was actually popular in Japan at one time. Dunno about now.

"Have a following" might be more appropriate than "popular". It was either MechWarrior, BattleTech, or both. Also we have a Japanese sub-forum here, maybe PGI knows. It sucks that ping from Japan to NA or EU servers is usually not that great.

Edited by Hit the Deck, 21 July 2015 - 02:04 AM.

[GeistHrafn]

As the majority of this thread isn't about MWO, moving to off-topic sub-forum.
Carry on!

[Tank]

To be popular you need to make mec... *no I refuse do desecrate holy title* - robots to be related to anime. You can literally pour waeboos over such products, even if it's got outdated mechanics, design and everything else.

This how The Devil and bane of Battletech still breaths doing nothing but copyright claims for over 20 years! Apple had a good teacher...

MWO is a niche product for a Battletech fans. I know PGI waters it down for broader audience, so the game could be developed and maintained - that's why I personally here, I want to Battletech live more then anything, even if it have so little of purity. But even that little part is gold for me.

Just hoping someday get at least a stock mech battle mode, balanced by BVs... All I'm asking... a little safe heaven.

[StompingOnTanks]

Well, first of all... Most people don't even know what a mech is. At least in my experience.

Unless you're talking to another nerd, if you ask them what a mech is, they will say they have no idea.

So, it's hard to base a game around something that most people aren't even aware of.

You also have the simulation and customization aspect that most mech games have... It's daunting to most people who haven't done it before. They take one look at the complicated mechanics, or the pages and pages of stats, and think "Oh, **** that, I'm going to go play something else" because to those people complicated mechanics and walls of stats =/= fun.

Unfortunately mecha sci-fi in general is quite a niche here in the West, not just because of what I mentioned above (IE: Mech games being too complicated, also if the mech game in question isn't compliacted enough then it's no longer considered a "mech game" which creates further problems) but because in Asia it's easy to make mecha mainstream thanks to anime.

It's easy to draw and animate mecha on a TV screen and have it become a popular TV show compared to the US, here, nobody who is actually in the entertainment industry takes animation seriously and thinks it's just for kid's cartoons and Disney. So the only way a mecha show would be made in the West is to make it live-action, and that would cost way too much because of CG. Plus, it's taking a big risk on a new genre, and that is something that studios these days are too ***** to do.

[Mister Blastman]

Brody319, on 19 July 2015 - 06:01 PM, said:

TitanFall tried to make it into the main series audience but was built and supported like a COD game, so it was only going to last realistically a year before the kiddies got tired of it.
Mech games are hard to make, too simple and you might as well just be using humans, too complicated and the average player probably won't get that into it. Also a lack of support.
Hawken had a chance.

Hawken was just stupid, though. It was a giant missed opportunity. The gameplay was horrible.