317 replies to this topic

[Paigan]

Bishop Steiner, on 22 July 2015 - 03:44 AM, said:

go in your Smurfy, and go find how many mech sin MWO, can jump 70 meters?


I can save you the effort..... there are exactly 3. The Spider (69 meters in most guises, 104 in the 5V, though it can pack like...2 whole MLs), the VND-1AA and the Shadowcat.

Period.

If I interpret that post correctly as a feeling of the SHC having too much jump capability, then that logic is pretty backwards. And that "Period" won't make it better as it is often a sign of ignorance and/or arrogance.

The truth is:
The Shadow Cat has NO advantage or special quirk or hidden quirk or whatever concearning JJs.
Not compared to other Clan Mechs and not even compared to IS Mechs.
Regarding this point, we have 100% Clan-IS balance, even perfect equality.

The question for a proper, fair and correct analysis must simply be:
How many 45 tonners are there that can equip 6 Jumpjets and how far can they jump?
Answer:
There are two such mechs (IS: Vindicator 1AA and Clans: SHC). Note: again perfect balance, btw.
And both can jump EXACTELY the same distance of 70.31m

(and if I may: the 1AA has WAY more hardpoints and AWESOME quirks. However no ECM and MASC, admitted)

So where is the problem?

SHC's jump capability performs exactely like that of an IS Mech (~3030 tech, to be even more precise)

Anything else regarding the SHC's oh-so-feared jump capability is purely emotional and objectively wrong


PS:
Now I made myself curious to buy a 1AA and play around with it.
If anyone needs me, I'll be in smurfy's.

Edited by Paigan, 22 July 2015 - 04:16 AM.

[Paigan]

Bishop Steiner, on 22 July 2015 - 03:28 AM, said:

So ...it's naive to make an objective evaluation that the mech has tons of special features and good things (aka the majority of the OP) but to acknowledge that it's firepower is somewhat limited because of a mix of tonnage and hardpoint options?

Naive would be if I was complaining about it, instead of simply reporting on the FACTS. Because of the limited hardpoints, the available tonnage allows for far less firepower than for instance, a Nova. (You can imitate the 2x ERPPC poptart, but are much hotter due to 10 base DHS instead of 14).

It is what it is, and I am not complaining about it, haven't tweeted Russ about it.

The mech is Fast, agile, jumps like a kangaroo on meth, with decent armor/hitboxes, but the firepower is a little Light. All facts.

So where's the naivety?

Naivety #1: The SHC does NOT have considerably weak firepower just because it does not have a ton of hardpoints
Naivety #2: The SHC's "not maximum" firepower is not a weakness considering its other features.

Simple example:
It's like looking at a F1 race car and stating "but it can't load as much as my truck" as a weakness.
Or looking at a truck and criticize "But it can't go 300kph, can it?"
Strictly speaking, such a statement is true.
But in context, it's also a pretty naive (<- VERY diplomatic phrasing) statement.

Everyone having the slightest clue about vehicles would stand beside you and think "OMG he did not just say that. What a ..."

Edited by Paigan, 22 July 2015 - 04:10 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Paigan, on 22 July 2015 - 04:04 AM, said:

You have your logic pretty backwards, Bishop and that "Period" won't make it better.

The truth is:
The Shadow Cat has NO advantage or special quirk or hidden quirk or whatever concearning JJs.
Not compared to other Clan Mechs and not even compared to IS Mechs.
Regarding this point, we have 100% Clan-IS balance, even perfect equality.

The question for a proper, fair and correct analysis must simply be:
How many 45 tonners are there that can equip 6 Jumpjets and how far can they jump?
Answer:
There are two such mechs (IS: Vindicator 1AA and Clans: SHC). Note: again perfect balance, btw.
And both can jump EXACTELY the same distance of 70.31m

(and if I may: the 1AA has WAY better hardpoints and AWESOME quirks. However no ECM and MASC, admitted)

So where is the problem?

SHC's jump capability performs exactely like that of an IS Mech (~3030 tech, to be even more precise)

Anything else regarding the SHC's oh-so-feared jump capability is purely emotional and wrong

Where did anyone say there was a problem? Are you making stuff up now?

Simple fact, 3 mechs can jump this well. That's pretty special. Nowhere is it said it's some special quirk. SO dunno what your damage is.

Paigan, on 22 July 2015 - 04:08 AM, said:

Naivety #1: The SHC does NOT have considerably weak firepower just because it does not have a ton of hardpoints
Naivety #2: The SHC's "not maximum" firepower is not a weakness considering its other features.

Simple example:
It's like looking at a F1 race car and stating "but it can't load as much as my truck" as a weakness.
Or looking at a truck and criticize "But it can't go 300kph, can it?"
Strictly speaking, such a statement is true.
But in context, it's also a pretty naive (<- VERY diplomatic phrasing) statement.

Everyone having the slightest clue about vehicles would stand beside you and think "OMG he did not just say that. What a ..."

cool story.

But limited tonnage plus limited hardpoints means it's firepower is limited compared to mechs with comparable weapon tonnage. Inability to boat missiles or lasers (3 of either, a boat does not make) makes that a simple fact. Not a horrible thing, but truth. In fact, it's closest counterpart is the VND, a mech never noted for it's firepower in MWO. It's pretty much a forced mix firepower, which is fine, but also generally noted as the least efficient way to deal damage in the game.

Now you are just trying to find things to pick at and such, so, pretty much just going to ignore you. HAve fun.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 22 July 2015 - 04:17 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

Paigan, on 22 July 2015 - 04:08 AM, said:

Naivety #1: The SHC does NOT have considerably weak firepower just because it does not have a ton of hardpoints
Naivety #2: The SHC's "not maximum" firepower is not a weakness considering its other features.

Simple example:
It's like looking at a F1 race car and stating "but it can't load as much as my truck" as a weakness.
Or looking at a truck and criticize "But it can't go 300kph, can it?"
Strictly speaking, such a statement is true.
But in context, it's also a pretty naive (<- VERY diplomatic phrasing) statement.

Everyone having the slightest clue about vehicles would stand beside you and think "OMG he did not just say that. What a ..."

It DOES have weak firepower though, compare it to a Blackjack, mainly because it lacks the weapon tonnage to make effective use of ballistics and lacks enough energy hardpoints to spam lightweight lasers. SRM based firepower is the only kind it does have, and that has issues with being very short ranged.

Its just that its kinda OK for it to have weakish firepower when it can do all the other things it does. One more E hardpoint would be very nice, but we make do. Expecting 2xLPL+1ERML to be very good once its got double basics.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 22 July 2015 - 04:17 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Widowmaker1981, on 22 July 2015 - 04:16 AM, said:

It DOES have weak firepower though, compare it to a Blackjack, mainly because it lacks the weapon tonnage to make effective use of ballistics and lacks enough energy hardpoints to spam lightweight lasers. SRM based firepower is the only kind it does have, and that has issues with being very short ranged.

Its just that its kinda OK for it to have weakish firepower when it can do all the other things it does. One more E hardpoint would be very nice, but we make do. Expecting 2xLPL+1ERML to be very good once its got double basics.

that and 3 racks doesn't make a Missile boat. Fact is, it essentially packs lss practical firepower than one can deliver (combo of alpha and DPS) than the Cheetah, Firestarter, etc, because they can boat multiple smaller weapons. Max practical firepower is probably with 2 MPL/3 SRM6, and that is not that hard a punch, while super short ranged, splat damage for the bulk, relatively hot and inefficient.

Is it a big deal? No.

But it is a fact.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 22 July 2015 - 04:21 AM.

[Lugh]

Mobility is a greater asset than firepower (or it should be).

The scary death ball mentality makes my inner Patton Scream in my head, Calvary is for moving and flanking not digging in...

[Widowmaker1981]

Lugh, on 22 July 2015 - 04:25 AM, said:

Mobility is a greater asset than firepower (or it should be).

The scary death ball mentality makes my inner Patton Scream in my head, Calvary is for moving and flanking not digging in...

You know what happens when im in a decent sized group (8+ say) and we realise the enemy team has split up? We charge one half instantly, while laughing because we know the game is already over. Thats why you deathball, or at least stay in reasonably close contact with the team.

[Bishop Steiner]

Lugh, on 22 July 2015 - 04:25 AM, said:

Mobility is a greater asset than firepower (or it should be).

The scary death ball mentality makes my inner Patton Scream in my head, Calvary is for moving and flanking not digging in...

indeed. If you can get a decent team that does something beside deathball huddles, the Scat should be a pretty good flanker.
But the most potent builds for that are all very short range, and while nimble, the Scat is in no way fast enough to disengage easily if overextended or unsupported. Once speed tweak is unlocked, it'll be a skosh better, but it's currently most consistent with less firepower, more range, and attacking from farther away where it can disengage still.

It's kinda sitting on the razors edge with the speed/firepower ratio.

Widowmaker1981, on 22 July 2015 - 04:29 AM, said:

You know what happens when im in a decent sized group (8+ say) and we realise the enemy team has split up? We charge one half instantly, while laughing because we know the game is already over. Thats why you deathball, or at least stay in reasonably close contact with the team.

end of the day, most aggressive team wins, probably 90% of the time. Most aggressive team with the most focused fire? Probably 100% of the time.

[MeiSooHaityu]

I'm not saying the Shadow Cat is good or bad, but by what I'm hearing and what I have seen, this mech strikes me as a solid fire support mech. ECM, High mount weapon (like a Gauss), and the ability to quickly relocate anywhere.

I think people wanted more from it and I sympathize. Who knows though, maybe someone will find that good (medium to short range) skirmisher style build.

[Recognition]

Paigan, on 22 July 2015 - 04:04 AM, said:

If I interpret that post correctly as a feeling of the SHC having too much jump capability, then that logic is pretty backwards. And that "Period" won't make it better as it is often a sign of ignorance and/or arrogance.

You interpreted that post incorrectly, he's just refuting deathchoppa's claim that slapping "6 jump jets on other chassis will let you jump as well or better"

[Bishop Steiner]

MeiSooHaityu, on 22 July 2015 - 04:33 AM, said:

I'm not saying the Shadow Cat is good or bad, but by what I'm hearing and what I have seen, this mech strikes me as a solid fire support mech. ECM, High mount weapon (like a Gauss), and the ability to quickly relocate anywhere.

I think people wanted more from it and I sympathize. Who knows though, maybe someone will find that good (medium to short range) skirmisher style build.

pretty fair summation. The mech is what it is, and it focuses on mobility, first and foremost. Hardpoints are wonderful. Hitboxes are decent. Effective Firepower? A bit limited. As noted in the OP, something we knew before we ordered it.
It's a good mech, as long as it isn't required to be the "damage dealer". Support or flanking though? It should do fine. Don't think it's tier 1 by any means, would call it a low tier 2/high 3, which means average or above average.

Recognition, on 22 July 2015 - 04:36 AM, said:

You interpreted that post incorrectly, he's just refuting deathchoppa's claim that slapping "6 jump jets on other chassis will let you jump as well or better"

Correct. Heck a Mist Lynx with 6 JJs gets 8 meters less jump. A Firestarter? 44 meters, vs 70. FS9 makes up for it with copious hardpoints and speed, of course.

[STEF_]

Imo, since the free tonnage is what it is, the real solution would be to change dat freaking p variant into energy hardpoints.
(MW3 scatter anyone?)
In that way SHC hardpoints would not be anemic anymore, and also the tonnage would be enough to build something interesting.

OR, as McGrall pointed out before, pgi should introduce AP Gauss, or buffing the mg damage for the SHC.

OR, heat quirks for the erppc poptarting SHC.....

Actually I'm doing better with the BJ.
(SHD not even basiced, anyway)

Edited by Stefka Kerensky, 22 July 2015 - 04:59 AM.

[ScarecrowES]

Unfortunately, the elephant in the room is that, given the limited hardpoints on the SCat, 35 ton mechs can do everything it can do but better. Why bring an extra 10 tons for a slower mech with the same output?

[Bishop Steiner]

ScarecrowES, on 22 July 2015 - 05:13 AM, said:

Unfortunately, the elephant in the room is that, given the limited hardpoints on the SCat, 35 ton mechs can do everything it can do but better. Why bring an extra 10 tons for a slower mech with the same output?

everything but jump, lol!

[Lugh]

Widowmaker1981, on 22 July 2015 - 04:29 AM, said:

You know what happens when im in a decent sized group (8+ say) and we realise the enemy team has split up? We charge one half instantly, while laughing because we know the game is already over. Thats why you deathball, or at least stay in reasonably close contact with the team.

That's because that split group didn't focus fire and kill the incoming as fast as they could. Which I've seen done and leads to those very exciting 11-12 matches

And yes the failure there was the other contingent not moving to support them fast enough or being too far away to do so.

[LordBraxton]

Solution?? I don't even have the P variant and the SHC is easily my best medium mech now... and I own every IS medium. I even think it's better than my Scrow, because I prize agility over power. SHC is a great mech... If youre complaining, you probably didn't buy any of the IS mech paks.

Edited by LordBraxton, 22 July 2015 - 05:18 AM.

[N a p e s]

I've having so much fun with this mech.

First of all it's a real beauty to look at which doesn't hurt anything, but it just feels awesome to pilot with nothing but basic skills. Here are the builds I'm playing for now.

Toaster Treat - Pretty hot but still tons of fun since you can jump and relocate really well.

Simple - Straightforward, but plays well. Doesn't have ECM but oh well.

Splat - The build I keep seeing on the forums. Only one game in this build so far but will be playing it more.

[Fate 6]

I agree everything feels fantastic except the actual weaponry. It's either too hot or doesn't do any damage. I wish it had the hardpoints for 5ERML (1 RT and 2 in each arm). I'd almost rather run the Ferret right now. 2LPL just doesn't feel good and the burn time on ERLL is too long for a mech this light. Can't poptart because of heat (and why run ERPPC+UAC5 instead of Gauss anyway? ).

I want to love it. Quirks could really help it out. LPL beam duration reduction would actually be amazing. The issue is the face time to damage ratio just doesn't work for a 45 tonner, so if we got much less beam duration we could live with the issues of heat and low alpha

[Kilo 40]

I was running X2 LRM10s, 1 MPL x2 SPL and ECM and was having a blast.

I have a feeling this will be my new favorite mech. Doubly so if 4v4 ever gets here and it turns out OK.

[N a p e s]

Fate 6, on 22 July 2015 - 05:35 AM, said:

I agree everything feels fantastic except the actual weaponry. It's either too hot or doesn't do any damage. I wish it had the hardpoints for 5ERML (1 RT and 2 in each arm). I'd almost rather run the Ferret right now. 2LPL just doesn't feel good and the burn time on ERLL is too long for a mech this light. Can't poptart because of heat (and why run ERPPC+UAC5 instead of Gauss anyway? ).

I want to love it. Quirks could really help it out. LPL beam duration reduction would actually be amazing. The issue is the face time to damage ratio just doesn't work for a 45 tonner, so if we got much less beam duration we could live with the issues of heat and low alpha

My only issue with giving it more energy hardpoints is that you'd just see a bunch of laser vomit Shadowcats and there's already plenty of laser vomit going around.

Now that doesn't mean I wouldn't want it and it certainly doesn't mean it wouldn't be useful.