317 replies to this topic

[Mcgral18]

Corviness, on 22 July 2015 - 10:40 AM, said:

Not enough firepower?... Ehm.... put 3 er ml's in, 2 srm6 and you climb to an alpha of 45 damagepoints PLUS ECM and Targeting Comp. MK I ... for comparsion my iceferret has 5 er ml's which makes an alpha of 35 dp and it has no ecm, no masc, etc. only a targeting comp. MK I. So, the shadowcat makes a lot of damage.

And how much useful damage?

SRM6s have a 12 ******* meter CoF.


33 damage for 26 heat, 12 heatsinks

35 damage for 30 heat, 16 heatsinks.


Heatsinks alone cancel the heat for an alpha, and cools faster. Fridge is outright superior in a brawl. High mounts is the only thing this robot has.



Now, I guess the thing to do is compare it to a Vindicator. That's bad. This is mediocre.

[Corviness]

Mcgral18, on 22 July 2015 - 10:48 AM, said:

And how much useful damage?

SRM6s have a 12 ******* meter CoF.


33 damage for 26 heat, 12 heatsinks

35 damage for 30 heat, 16 heatsinks.


Heatsinks alone cancel the heat for an alpha, and cools faster. Fridge is outright superior in a brawl. High mounts is the only thing this robot has.



Now, I guess the thing to do is compare it to a Vindicator. That's bad. This is mediocre.

If you are a player who play 100% of his time with long range weapons, it can be bad for you, to have to you srms, but if you can handle them, with modules, you shoot around 300 meters, the erml have a nice pew pew damage of 21, with modules too and the target comp. you can fire nearly 500 meters effective till 1000 meters. I dont see the problem and it has a moderate heatmanagment of 37% (smurfy's).

[Mcgral18]

Corviness, on 22 July 2015 - 11:09 AM, said:

If you are a player who play 100% of his time with long range weapons, it can be bad for you, to have to you srms, but if you can handle them, with modules, you shoot around 300 meters, the erml have a nice pew pew damage of 21, with modules too and the target comp. you can fire nearly 500 meters effective till 1000 meters. I dont see the problem and it has a moderate heatmanagment of 37% (smurfy's).

It ran too ******* hot when I used it.

cSRM6s without Art are mainly a waste. An atlas is 18M, the CoF is 11.8. It's ******* huge.

[Bishop Steiner]

PowerOfNapes, on 22 July 2015 - 05:49 AM, said:

My only issue with giving it more energy hardpoints is that you'd just see a bunch of laser vomit Shadowcats and there's already plenty of laser vomit going around.

Now that doesn't mean I wouldn't want it and it certainly doesn't mean it wouldn't be useful.

5 mediums by themselves really isn't enough for decent laservomit, and probably be hot as blazes. But dual energy hardpoint arms free up a lot of other possibilities, like a Ballistic RA, energy or missiles in the RT and a nicely converged dual laser in the LA. More than anything, that's what I would really like is just some weapon synergy, instead of spread all over the mech.

Fate 6, on 22 July 2015 - 06:00 AM, said:

it feels real bad to have to armor up an entire arm just to put 1 ML in it.

this. x1000

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

I do believe it is my new favorite poptart. I've been having a blast in it.

[Deathlike]

I'm theorymeching on the builds for it, and wow... this sucks. You can't load a Gauss Rifle into the torso (dreams of awesomeness have died).

However, I think the loadouts lend a lot more to poking or hit and runs. Basically, it ends up being a support mech more than anything else. I almost feel like the Fridge got vindicated somehow (yes, I know it's heresy).

The lack of hardpoints forces one to be very choosy on what their goto large weapon of choice happens to be, whether it is LPL or Gauss (the latter of which by all accounts could be a lost cause), you're going to have to make compromises that require a certain style of play to make it useful.

Don't get me started on the actuator issue... because PGI doesn't even follow any particular known ruleset. It's ****ing randomly arbitrary.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Deathlike, on 22 July 2015 - 01:48 PM, said:

I'm theorymeching on the builds for it, and wow... this sucks. You can't load a Gauss Rifle into the torso (dreams of awesomeness have died).

However, I think the loadouts lend a lot more to poking or hit and runs. Basically, it ends up being a support mech more than anything else. I almost feel like the Fridge got vindicated somehow (yes, I know it's heresy).

The lack of hardpoints forces one to be very choosy on what their goto large weapon of choice happens to be, whether it is LPL or Gauss (the latter of which by all accounts could be a lost cause), you're going to have to make compromises that require a certain style of play to make it useful.

Don't get me started on the actuator issue... because PGI doesn't even follow any particular known ruleset. It's ****ing randomly arbitrary.

This pretty much the only build I use:
SHC-PRIME

[Deathlike]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 22 July 2015 - 02:14 PM, said:

This pretty much the only build I use:
SHC-PRIME

Is it sad that I kinda pine for the Nova because of this?

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Deathlike, on 22 July 2015 - 02:18 PM, said:

Is it sad that I kinda pine for the Nova because of this?

You should, I'm already considering ditching my Novatart permanently for the Kitty Tart

Edited by Lord Scarlett Johan, 22 July 2015 - 02:19 PM.

[LordBraxton]

Mcgral18, on 22 July 2015 - 11:12 AM, said:

It ran too ******* hot when I used it.

cSRM6s without Art are mainly a waste. An atlas is 18M, the CoF is 11.8. It's ******* huge.

have you mastered it?

Tho, SRMs have needed a buff since before Clans were in MWO... so, I feel your pain there. They were strong in CB, got nerfed, and have sucked since

[Deathlike]

SHC-B

That's the best I can do on the SRM front. No arm articulation, but then again, you'll need all the SRM firepower you can poke with.

Variations will probably revolve around 1 DHS <-> 1 Ton of ASRM ammo, and with SPL or SL instead of ML.

Yay for weapon diversity?

[Malcolm Vordermark]

It does seem a bit light on the fire power. Mostly due to its lack of energy hard points. I think part of this is due to my reluctance to run an ECM capable mech without ECM. The Gauss + 2 ER ML build for example just barely fits if one does not take ECM. 2 LPL + 6 MG sounds fun as well, even if I'm not sure it would be all that effective.

While keeping ECM, I've been pretty happy with 2 LPL + 1 ER ML and 3 ER LL. I'm sure I'll be even happier once I elite these mechs. 1 UAC10 + 2 ER ML has been working out decently but it makes me wish for the -30% UAC jam chance on the right arm.

[Gas Guzzler]

How interesting to see people who complain about "power creep" saddened by the fact that this new mech isn't very good...

[Deathlike]

Gas Guzzler, on 22 July 2015 - 02:32 PM, said:

How interesting to see people who complain about "power creep" saddened by the fact that this new mech isn't very good...

The powercreep was specific to the Arctic Cheetah, as it has made the other Clan Lights obsolete... more or less.

With respect to the Shadowcat.. I did prelabbing before this (like, I prelabbed this way before the pack dropped), and the labbing I did today only confirmed how much worse I thought it would be.

The struggle to run the "stock" Prime build with ECM and more ammo is an actual challenge.

Edited by Deathlike, 22 July 2015 - 02:37 PM.

[Trainee]

Deathlike, on 22 July 2015 - 02:26 PM, said:

SHC-B

That's the best I can do on the SRM front. No arm articulation, but then again, you'll need all the SRM firepower you can poke with.

Variations will probably revolve around 1 DHS <-> 1 Ton of ASRM ammo, and with SPL or SL instead of ML.

Yay for weapon diversity?

That would be a great build...if you could put the SRM's on one side, and the lasers on the other. Right now I'd need 4 hotkeys to make this work, and I'm way too lazy for that. I did try it though.

[Deathlike]

Trainee, on 22 July 2015 - 02:37 PM, said:

That would be a great build...if you could put the SRM's on one side, and the lasers on the other. Right now I'd need 4 hotkeys to make this work, and I'm way too lazy for that. I did try it though.

Why would you want to gimp yourself, since the RT is the add-on missile OR energy hardpoint?

The SHC-B's arms are the most you can get hardpointwise (unless you are taking that MG dakka seriously, in which case, good luck with that), so you'll have to play it like a SRM-brawler Centurion-A (with JJs) - although they also call this the Wolverine-7K as well... That might actually just work out as is.

Edited by Deathlike, 22 July 2015 - 02:40 PM.

[Kassatsu]

Only really had time to try one match in one, felt pretty nice. Felt tanky for what it is at first, then an enemy actually looked at me and I nearly lost a side torso.

MASC helps greatly to counter jump jet landings, leaving almost no opening to line up a shot like most other mechs with jets. Other than that, it's practically worthless unless you want to quickly change directions (It's really a poke tool more than anything, but again, jump jet recovery is great). Speed and agility was what you'd expect for a clan mech running 97.

Loadouts I've tried so far were 2 medium pulse lasers, 2 SRM6 and an ER PPC... Bit low on damage, ran WAY too hot to be effective for anything more than firing once and ducking behind cover. Will likely try 7MGs and a large pulse laser next just for the hell of it. Considering 2 ER PPCs or 2 large pulse lasers with ECM as the main go-to loadout.

Too hot to really do much actual fighting, too weak to be a decoy, too slow to be a scout. It's just kind of there as a silly gimmick mech that showcases how terrible MASC really is. At least its jump jets actually let you kind of sort of jump.

[Gas Guzzler]

Well, just for shnitzngiggles, I am going to run the stock build stock, just drop the CAP and replace with 3rd ton of Gauss ammo and see where that takes me.

Yes I know, not full armor and blah blah, I will just use the durability quirked legs

[1453 R]

I think one of the real problems with the perceived lack of firepower on the Shadow Cat (and many other gun-light Clan 'Mechs) is...well, twofold. First of all, 60-point energy alphas spoil people really damn fast, and so anything with less than 6E gets shat upon...but also, the go-to solution for Clan 'Mechs with less podspace than normal and looking for some punch has always been the cER-PPC.

In TT, any 'Mech with a PPC was dangerous. Any 'Mech with two PPCs was really dangerous, and any 'Mech with 3 or more was terrifying. The cER-PPC was basically terrifying all by itself - that gun alone made things like Ferrets or Summoners not intrinsically awful. In MWO? Well...PPCs are fun![/sarcasm] Even when they were the ultradominant Kings of Weaponry, they were only such in groups of 2 or more. The gun has never been threatening by itself, the way it was meant to be, and yet it has the sort of heat load you'd expect from some sort of demonic hellcannon that should be threatening by itself.

What's sad is that if the Shadow Cat (do not call it a Scat, damnit T_T) had a 2E pod for each arm, no one would remotely complain. Not one voice of dissent would be heard - we would all be welcoming our first true competitor to the Stormcrow's dominance as quad/quint cERML Shadow Cats ran rampant through the realm. It really is enough to make you realize, if you haven't already, that we need to do some work on the game yet if a 'Mech's viability is determined solely and entirely by how many cERML it can carry.

Alternatively: let's get some heavy lasers in this house. Give me a heavy large laser to cram in that RT energy point and I will reopen discussion on whether the Shadow Cat lacks firepower. G'head. Gimme a 16-damage laser. Even one that generates 18 heat and self-ECMs me for a bit. I won't even use more than one - one heavy large laser in the RT, one cERML in each arm, heat sinks stuffed wherever I can fit them.

GAWD it's infuriating just how many problems we could solve with this game by jumping forward just twenty years...

Edited by 1453 R, 22 July 2015 - 05:31 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

1453 R, on 22 July 2015 - 05:31 PM, said:

GAWD it's infuriating just how many problems we could solve with this game by jumping forward just twenty years...

and how many new balancing issues we would inherit?