56 replies to this topic

[Zeriniel]

Joseph Mallan, on 22 July 2015 - 10:54 AM, said:

I know but the point is As is I cannot have 2 torso mounted AC20 or an AC10 in both sides as I can on TT. It is a limitation that is happily not held by Omnis

Your Hero Assault sounds like the Berzerker.

Stand up tall!?!

That's entirely dependent on there being an Omnipod in this game that allows that. As the OmniBodyParts PGI has introduced are based off of known variants (for the most part), I don't see one. (I do see the 3136 refit AS7-D has minor Omni capabilities though..hmm)

and touche on the standing thing

Edited by Zeriniel, 22 July 2015 - 11:03 AM.

[Aggravated Assault Mech]

Alan Davion, on 22 July 2015 - 09:47 AM, said:

It's impossible to balance IS against Clan as it is, as the intended balance method, 12 v 10, is supposedly impossible to implement.

The Clans are supposed to be able to fight at further ranges, and then we have zellbrigen which demands a one-on-one engagement... Which of course is also impossible in MWO.

The only advantage the IS is able to bring to the table are sheer numbers and focused fire.

So something else needs to give here, that being IS Omnimech technology. We either need the IS Omnimechs added in, or the ability for the IS to bring Clan mechs into CW.

IS could canonically have the Raptor this year, and you could probably justify other first-gen Omnimechs like the Firestarter, Blackhawk-KU, Avatar, and Sunder as well.

That said, the advantage of being an omnimech isn't really that great, especially for IS. The problem is that if they follow the same omnimech rules, they'd be stuck with IS XL engines, which is going to cripple most of them unless they come with major ST perks off the showroom floor, or have different fitting rules with regards to engine and internals than Clan Mechs, in which case the chassis are essentially blank slates, which is both a "cheap" solution and potentially problematic balance-wise. Otherwise, the Avatar and Sunder are almost certainly duds with capped 64kph top speed and IS XL weakness.

IS mech selection would be helped more by opening the floodgates to post-3050 gauss/laser vom JJ ultra-meatlord mechs. That would shift the balance and give IS some better long-range options to counter clan mobility. Pillager, Thunder Hawk, Penetrator, Tempest, Komodo etc.

Personally I would prefer seeing them bump up the timeline on access to newer IS weaponry like streaks, UAC/LBX and ER lasers etc, and then working from there. Weaponry is really the issue with IS mechs, rather than hardpoints. There are mechs with good hardpoints, but the only ones that are good mechs are the ones with the perks to bring their weaponry up to Clan level.

[Strum Wealh]

MeiSooHaityu, on 22 July 2015 - 07:55 AM, said:

I meant that IIC mechs started out as Clan mechs built off of SLDF mechs that went on Exodus with Kerensky so they were always clan. I think some might think the IIC mechs were repurposed IS mechs captured after the invasion.

And yes, there is always a chance I don't know what I'm talking about when it comes to Lore and the BT universe. Things can get confusing or muddy from time to time.

Those are actually two separate classes of 'Mech.

The "IIC" 'Mechs are Clan-original designs, (re)designed and built from the ground up with Clan-grade technologies, intended to serve as second-line and garrison units.
They are pure Clan-tech designs, never incorporating any IS-grade technologies.

The "C" 'Mechs (e.g. Atlas C, Victor C, Thunderbolt C, Shadow Hawk C, etc) are IS-built chassis that were captured by the Clans during the initial invasion and retrofitted with Clan-grade weapons & equipment, intended to serve as garrison units at a level below even the IICs.
They are mixed-tech 'Mechs, chassis built in the IS with IS-grade major components (internal structure, engine, myomers, etc) and refitted with Clan-grade weaponry by Clan technicians.

[Strum Wealh]

Joseph Mallan, on 22 July 2015 - 09:39 AM, said:

Thats what I linked... With Xenia Seeberg front and center.

Zev (Eva Habermann) > Xev (Xenia Seeberg)

[Arle Vox]

Mors Draco, on 22 July 2015 - 09:54 AM, said:

No, the IIC mechs are upgraded designs based off of SDLF 'mechs using clan tech. They aren't SDLF 'mechs, they are 100% pure clan.

Now you're arguing semantics. The fact is that these mechs were originally IS mechs. The clan may have taken their chassis and fitted them with clan tech, but they are still IS-based designs. This is what I propose for the Dire Wolf Hero mech because the lore ALREADY exists for these chassis existing in the realm of IS mechs.

Because they are based on IS designs and their physical chassis remain consistent with this IS design, they are at most 70% Clan.

[Scratx]

Arle Vox, on 23 July 2015 - 12:22 PM, said:

Now you're arguing semantics. The fact is that these mechs were originally IS mechs. The clan may have taken their chassis and fitted them with clan tech, but they are still IS-based designs. This is what I propose for the Dire Wolf Hero mech because the lore ALREADY exists for these chassis existing in the realm of IS mechs.

Because they are based on IS designs and their physical chassis remain consistent with this IS design, they are at most 70% Clan.

Sigh. No.

By the time the clans were "done" with the IIC mechs, they'd just about replaced every single component, except sometimes engines (standard engines are the same with clans and spheroids, no real difference there).

They're full clan-tech, period. Even by rules, they're listed as Clan Tech-base. There are no ifs ands or buts, IIC mechs are full clan-tech in every way that counts.

Seriously, look at the following two pages as an example.

http://www.sarna.net...i/Hunchback_IIC
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Hunchback

Look at the chassis, armor, communications gear, etc. Even jumpjets. There's about nothing in common in terms of components.

If that isn't enough to clue you in, I'm not sure anything will.

[Arle Vox]

Alright, I will concede. But the IS did eventually get clan tech... I just wanted some Hero Dire Wolfs. Kill my dreams, whatever, I'm not even sad or anything... lol

[Mavairo]

Clan IIC mechs, are IS mechs with clan weapons, in effective implementation.

No matter what clan mech fan boys, or anyone else says, that's exactly what they are.

Just wait for the other IICs to come along, and replace the rest of the IS lineup. PGI needs power creep to sell mechs.

[Sjorpha]

Please no, I'm totally against mixtech. It would make both factions run the exact same weapons meta, horrible.

[Mavairo]

Sjorpha, on 23 July 2015 - 06:30 PM, said:

Please no, I'm totally against mixtech. It would make both factions run the exact same weapons meta, horrible.

It's coming, unfortunately.

[Alan Davion]

Mavairo, on 23 July 2015 - 05:34 PM, said:

Clan IIC mechs, are IS mechs with clan weapons, in effective implementation.

No matter what clan mech fan boys, or anyone else says, that's exactly what they are.

Just wait for the other IICs to come along, and replace the rest of the IS lineup. PGI needs power creep to sell mechs.

Sjorpha, on 23 July 2015 - 06:30 PM, said:

Please no, I'm totally against mixtech. It would make both factions run the exact same weapons meta, horrible.

Mavairo, on 23 July 2015 - 06:48 PM, said:

It's coming, unfortunately.

Oh for pete's sake. The IIC mechs are NOT mix-tech. Mix-Tech is IS mechs like the Catapult or Cataphract mounting Clan-style ER/Pulse weapons or any of the ballistic weapons.

When the SLDF left the Inner Sphere, they took a slew of mechs with them, and they were put into mothballs shortly before or after they reached what would become the Clan Homeworlds.

Sometime later, these mechs were pulled out of mothballs, and COMPLETELY REDESIGNED... FROM THE GROUND UP NO LESS... To use more advanced Clan Tech. XL engines, better Endo/Ferro, ER/Pulse lasers, the whole nine-bleeding-yards.

It's only the fact that the chassis RESEMBLES their original IS counterparts that has any bearing on this discussion.

The IIC mechs are Clan and Clan-only.

[Aggravated Assault Mech]

Alan Davion, on 23 July 2015 - 07:12 PM, said:

It's only the fact that the chassis RESEMBLES their original IS counterparts that has any bearing on this discussion.

The IIC mechs are Clan and Clan-only.

No, it's the fact that they're mechs follow IS fitting rules but have access to clan weaponry.

[Alan Davion]

vnlk65n, on 23 July 2015 - 08:10 PM, said:

No, it's the fact that they're mechs follow IS fitting rules but have access to clan weaponry.

They are still Clan-Only mechs. Yes they follow IS construction rules, but that does not make them mix-tech. They would only be mix-tech if they had to use IS weaponry, which they do not. Or, on the flip-side, their IS counterparts having access to Clan weaponry.

That is mix-tech.

The IICs are not mix-tech. End of story.

[Arle Vox]

Alan Davion, on 23 July 2015 - 08:28 PM, said:

They are still Clan-Only mechs. Yes they follow IS construction rules, but that does not make them mix-tech. They would only be mix-tech if they had to use IS weaponry, which they do not. Or, on the flip-side, their IS counterparts having access to Clan weaponry.

That is mix-tech.

The IICs are not mix-tech. End of story.

This is all well and good, so the IICs are totally clan-fitted mechs. Built with IS construction rules, but with Clan weaponry.

Back to my suggestion to begin with: why not have an IS Dire Wolf in this same manner (with IS weaponry). The omnipod construction of that hero would be invalid, 'cuz switching pods would be game-breaking tech mixing. I don't get why we couldn't have a Dire Wolf built in IS fashion in the game...

[Tuku]

actually it was said in a town hall but they arent ready to mix tech yet but they will eventually . That being said I like the idea of Clan Heros essentially being 2C mechs....Opens up the Kerensky Atlas 2 (Its actually in the proper timeline) When Krensky took what would be the clanners out of the IS all of the Atlas 2 pilots went with him. His personal Atlas 2 he gave a clan retrofit making it essentially an Atlas IIC. I belive that this would make a great Clan Hero mech

[Aggravated Assault Mech]

Alan Davion, on 23 July 2015 - 08:28 PM, said:

They are still Clan-Only mechs. Yes they follow IS construction rules, but that does not make them mix-tech. They would only be mix-tech if they had to use IS weaponry, which they do not. Or, on the flip-side, their IS counterparts having access to Clan weaponry.

That is mix-tech.

The IICs are not mix-tech. End of story.

Ok thanks for the lore. Sorry someone woke you from your slumber by accidentally misusing the term.

As far as the game is concerned (you know, the thing we're actually playing) IIC mechs get access to clan weapons without any of the handicaps associated with them.

Whether it's literally mixtech or not in the lore sense is irrelevant. Mechanically they're getting the best of both worlds.

[Mavairo]

Alan Davion, on 23 July 2015 - 07:12 PM, said:

Oh for pete's sake. The IIC mechs are NOT mix-tech. Mix-Tech is IS mechs like the Catapult or Cataphract mounting Clan-style ER/Pulse weapons or any of the ballistic weapons.

When the SLDF left the Inner Sphere, they took a slew of mechs with them, and they were put into mothballs shortly before or after they reached what would become the Clan Homeworlds.

Sometime later, these mechs were pulled out of mothballs, and COMPLETELY REDESIGNED... FROM THE GROUND UP NO LESS... To use more advanced Clan Tech. XL engines, better Endo/Ferro, ER/Pulse lasers, the whole nine-bleeding-yards.

It's only the fact that the chassis RESEMBLES their original IS counterparts that has any bearing on this discussion.

The IIC mechs are Clan and Clan-only.

yeah they just happen to be IS mechs, with special paintjobs, and clan equipment.

Yeah that makes them totally different

They are clan mechs, following IS construction rules. That is for all tense and purposes mechanically the exact same thing as "mix tech".
It's literally the best of both worlds.