198 replies to this topic

[sgt coloncrunch]

ScrapIron Prime, on 05 July 2012 - 05:11 PM, said:

Cool. Got a source on that so I can do the happy dance?

They've done their damnest to hide it, but you can find mention of it that a japanese court ruled that Tatsunoko had no authority to issue copyright distribution license to Harmony Gold, and that it was another company entirely who owned the soul right of that.

Thereby they were issued an injunction and can no longer market, or enforce their "license" over anyone. At least thats what I've found

Unfortunately this is the best I can find for the time being. http://forums.animes...hread.php?t=164


Edit: I'd like to add that upon further reading, this article and information is derived from a situation appearing well over 5 years ago. I cannot find anything as of the past year, or this year for that matter.

Edited by sgt coloncrunch, 07 July 2012 - 12:02 PM.

[Dedzone]

SyberSmoke, on 05 July 2012 - 11:55 AM, said:

There is nothing wrong with the mechs them selves. The attributes of the mechs are not contested and so can be used. As long as the developers change the art behind the mech making it more modern, something they are doing to most of the mechs by the way, then there will be no issue with the unseen.

The problem is that so many people are fussing over silliness that they are making an issue. So if you like a mech, like the Warhammer, just say that you would like to see it in game and that it being redesigned is fine. Nothing more is needed.

This right here.
Just get some polls going and see what peolpe really want to be put in the game after release and then let the artist guys do their thing to come up with new designs.

Lets face if folks, Harmony Gold will forever have a stick up their rears so we have to move to the next best thing......redesigns with the same gear/hardpoints/etc/etc....

JUst let the Dev team know what you would like to see come back the most....in the Suggestion forums!!

[Jacob Davion]

Hmmmm, at this point I don't know which side to take.....

HOLD UP! According to sarna, the Locust IS reseen! http://www.sarna.net...Category:Reseen That being said, I vote the Locust as the next light mech! OOH-RAH to reseen!!!!!!

[Solidussnake]

well technically PGI can use any unseen mech they want. As long as they simply change the image.

[Belorion]

MagnusEffect, on 05 July 2012 - 06:34 PM, said:

Except the dorsal gun is different, the arms are different, the legs are (completely) different... etc.

Are you just trolling or do you seriously not get the point?

---

Personally, I always hated the spindly design of the legs and upper arms on the original marauder/battle pod-thing. I would really like to see the Marauder with legs that are a beefier version of the Crab. From an anatomical/mechanical perspective, they make more sense:

You failed to see my point. There has been some grumbling that even the reseen designs are too much like the original. Therefor they were pulled. I say your design looks enough like the Marauder that it would fall under the same crosshairs of the HG lawyers.

Just because you say it is different enough doesn't make it so. Do you really want to defend your case in court?

[JDante]

I WANNA MAROUDER !!! *** THE HARMONY GOLD! LETS KILL THEM!


its totally cool mech!!! very cool)

[DirePhoenix]

Guys, if you want to talk image rights, PGI doesn't even have the rights for the non-unseen images used in the books. ANY books. Not even the current books being put out by Catalyst. Topps (the baseball card company) somehow has rights to all Battletech images used in print media. Catalyst has to license through Topps to even have pictures in those books.

All art used for MWO is created exclusively for MWO. Everything from the Atlas to the Blackjack and whatever else they come up with, all of that is new, original art. This also probably means there will never be a print-media book or TRO using MWO's art. Being that everything we have in here is new, original art already, there should be nothing standing in the way of creating new art for these 'mechs other than the fans accepting the new art and the design studio having the balls to make it happen.

[Tarman]

FFS dudes, way to necro a dead horse. Is it not beaten enough yet?

[Volthorne]

To anyone who does not understand copyright infringement laws on images: change it by 20% and you can call it "new artwork" and is thus legal and not subject to any lawsuits filed under a copyright infringement violation. Yes, that is seriously how it works.

[627]

JDante, on 12 November 2012 - 10:42 PM, said:

I WANNA MAROUDER !!! *** THE HARMONY GOLD! LETS KILL THEM!


its totally cool mech!!! very cool)

actually, it's a very hot mech with serious heat problems. And it's very unlikely to see this beauty, because all variants are nearly the same in a hardpoint view.

But I want one, too. Would be a nice Hero mech, maybe graysons mech? Or the bounty hunter?
To hell, I want one

Edited by 627, 13 November 2012 - 12:16 AM.

[AlexEss]

Actually... in this case the less new threads we have the better.

But it has been said before and it will be said again... they do not think it is worth the time right now to invest in figuring out who owns what right to whatever when there are a few hundreds other designs out there to work on and they have made small nods to some of the unseen on other mechs like the new flea and jaeger designs(locust and rifleman to be exact).

Volthorne, on 13 November 2012 - 12:09 AM, said:

To anyone who does not understand copyright infringement laws on images: change it by 20% and you can call it "new artwork" and is thus legal and not subject to any lawsuits filed under a copyright infringement violation. Yes, that is seriously how it works.

I am pretty sure that it works differently for companies... And in this case it does not really matter as it is not the matter of a copyright infringement but the question of a licensing agreement and who owns the right to do this or that. Even if they could change the designs and carry on a usual that would in essence make them new mechs as they have to change the profile of design to get around the legal mubojumbo and if they do that why not pick designs that have the same layout of hard points and is not submerged in murky legal water.

After all does a rose by any other name not smell as good.

Edited by AlexEss, 13 November 2012 - 12:17 AM.

[Ewigan]

I want LAMs

[Onyx Rain]

Most recent official word from the devs I've seen...


Recently from Kotaku chat...
http://kotaku.com/59...stionsright-now
RussBullock @AberrantOne 2 days ago(NOV 7th) Share...

"The Warhammer was only in the 2009 trailer which was for a different game not MWO. But the bottom line is we do not have the rights to use the Warhammer and some other "Unseen" Were adding mechs as quickly as we can."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To me this suggest that all the unseen that are still unseen are out...but the "some", makes me wonder if the re-seen are available to them for use. We could get really lucky and the "some", actually refers to some that are still technically unseen...but I doubt it.

I really wish they'd just give us a list of mechs they DO NOT have the rights to use...though a list of the ones they for sure do have the rights to would be just as good I suppose

Re-seen (from sarna):
[color=#000000][/color]Locust[color=#000000], [/color]Griffin[color=#000000], [/color]Shadow Hawk[color=#000000], [/color]Thunderbolt[color=#000000], [/color]Scorpion[color=#000000], [/color]Wolverine[color=#000000], and [/color]BattleMaster[color=#000000].[/color]

Edited by Onyx Rain, 13 November 2012 - 12:29 AM.

[Volthorne]

AlexEss, on 13 November 2012 - 12:11 AM, said:

Actually... in this case the less new threads we have the better.

But it has been said before and it will be said again... they do not think it is worth the time right now to invest in figuring out who owns what right to whatever when there are a few hundreds other designs out there to work on and they have made small nods to some of the unseen on other mechs like the new flea and jaeger designs(locust and rifleman to be exact).





I am pretty sure that it works differently for companies... And in this case it does not really matter as it is not the matter of a copyright infringement but the question of a licensing agreement and who owns the right to do this or that. Even if they could change the designs and carry on a usual that would in essence make them new mechs as they have to change the profile of design to get around the legal mubojumbo and if they do that why not pick designs that have the same layout of hard points and is not submerged in murky legal water.

After all does a rose by any other name not smell as good.

Copyright infringement would specifically refer to the "unseen" issue, concerning whoever suing whoever over images being "too similar" to another IP. Licensing agreements specifically dictate the conditions that you may use an IP in, and what you may use it for.

Also 20% is not as much as you think it may be. Nearly all of the Unseen could be re-released with only minor tweaking. People like to go overboard, though, so when something needs redesigning.... "Re-do ALL the things!"

[DirePhoenix]

AlexEss, on 13 November 2012 - 12:11 AM, said:

Even if they could change the designs and carry on a usual that would in essence make them new mechs as they have to change the profile of design to get around the legal mubojumbo and if they do that why not pick designs that have the same layout of hard points and is not submerged in murky legal water.

After all does a rose by any other name not smell as good.

Murky water? How is this water murky? What is so hard to understand? The art is in contention, not the name, not the stats/layout, not the 'mechs themselves. The art.

Solution: Make new, original art. Guess what? EVERYTHING IN MWO IS NEW ORIGINAL ART ALREADY! Regardless of "unseen" or not. Creating new original art for the "unseen" wouldn't be that much more of a process than how they're already redesigning all of the current 'mechs they've already announced.

The 'nods' to the "unseen" that they've been doing in non-unseen 'mechs only exacerbate the problem more than satisfy our desires to see the actual 'mechs.

Case in point. Let's look at the Cataphract. Here's how it originally appeared in TRO 3050:



Here's the MAD-5D Marauder in the same TRO, by the same artist:



These two 'mechs have the same legs and the same right arm. Let's take a look at how the Cataphract looks in MWO:



Now, we can see this is clearly new original art, different from the TRO 3050 Cataphract, but it's still close enough to tell what it is. Even more than that, we even have some familiar legs and arms here. If we reverse the process used to make the TRO Cataphract and take the MWO Cataphract's legs, duplicate the right arm to replace the left, and toss a new torso in there with some sort of dorsal cannon, what do we get?



And there we have it. An "Unseen" that is not using the art in contention. It's there. It's obvious. And it's even more frustrating that we can see how awesome it *could* be in this game when we have these 'mechs with these 'nods', but yet don't actually have these 'mechs themselves.

These 'mechs are important, regardless of what images are being used to represent them. Every single one of the "Unseen" were supposed to be staples of the SLDF, and even after the fall of the Star League, they were most common and abundant 'mechs in the Inner Sphere for hundreds of years, across all the Houses. We need these 'mechs to appear again. FD is more than capable of coming up with new, possibly even cooler art for them. PGI needs to make this happen.

[James The Fox Dixon]

Ralen Sharr, on 05 July 2012 - 10:17 AM, said:

the original designs are what infringe on the copyright

that's why they have "reseen" versions

the reseen designs are fine to use

Bodha, on 05 July 2012 - 11:30 AM, said:

you seem to be missing the point. The original artwork was stolen from another franchise. If you steal something you dont simply get to say sorry and keep using it unless the person you stole from is very forgiving.

The solution that worked was making new artwork for these mechs, but as you can see many people fell in love with the original stuff and complain heavily about the new artwork. Easiest solution for mechwarrior has been to let the drama rage on and just avoid having the mechs in the game at all.

IF they ever bring these old mechs back it will be with the redesigned artwork.

IF they do the forums will be months of people complaining.

Devs are basically in one of those damned if they do and damned if they don't situations. So probably just decide to spend development resources on mechs that dont have the drama attached to them.

Personally I hope they just keep pushing out more mechs at a rapid pace. I don't really care if they bring back the marauder, archer, thunderbolt, warhammer, and all the other unseen. I would play them if available, and I won't be upset if they dont make it in. I will be upset if the mech selection and variety isn't expanding regularly along with a regular expansion of the maps/arenas to fight in.

What would really make me happy? If the dev's put out a map design toolset and let players make maps that they polish up.

ScrapIron Prime, on 05 July 2012 - 12:51 PM, said:

Intellectual Property rights don't work that way in the US. once you let people start using them, they rapidly devolve into public domain. So you need to slap people with cease and desist lawsuits or forever lose your revenue stream. More or less.

DeathGuardOO14, on 05 July 2012 - 12:55 PM, said:

I'm not gonna disagree, but is HG really doing anything with them? Prolly not, and they could be making more money if they allowed the unseens use in MWO. Like I said though, if it were that easy they would do it.

Yoseful Mallad, on 05 July 2012 - 12:58 PM, said:

I guess you haven't been paying attention? Even if they do give us these mech in this game, what would make you think they would have to give harmony gold or any of the other companies those unseen first designs came from anything at all? AGAIN... As long as those designs are not used, then there is no problems. And the names like warhammer, marauder, Rifelman and so on can be used as those are not copy written by Harmony gold or anyone else. The names can be put on new redesigned mech.

Belorion, on 05 July 2012 - 02:26 PM, said:

This thread is jam packed full of missinformation.

None of the images were ever stollen. They were licensed for use. FASA made the decision to pull the images preimptively, and let the license lapse.

Harmony gold only has licensing rights to mech images originating from the Macross series. They are:

Stinger
Wasp
Valkyrie
Phoenix Hawk
Crusader
Hornet
Ostroc
Ostsol
Ostscout
Archer
Warhammer
Rifleman
Longbow
Marauder
Marauder II

Making some Mechs that were unseen in the clear for release. There are rumors that even the Macross images have been cleared.

Elkarlo, on 05 July 2012 - 04:32 PM, said:

And you got it WRONG

Locust
Griffin
Shadow Hawk
Thunderbolt
Scorpion
Wolverine
Battlemaster


Are reseen, and we may get them. They are again part of the BT license !

The Macross mech's too for everyone not in the US, as in US is the ROBOTECH License by Golden Harmony.
( Macross is International and they got the License into the BT license but in the US Market Golden Harmony made a seperate License out of Macross called Robotech, and the Robotech license is the Problem with out beloved Mech's)

The funny thing is that Ral Partha produced the Macross Mech till around 1999 or 2000 for the European Market, but where forbade to import to US. In Europe it was legal, because Macross didn't block the Mech's.

Maybe when we get the European Server i will get my Warhammer .

Atomfire, on 05 July 2012 - 05:08 PM, said:

You have durpped hard, Harmony lost the rights last year.

Volthorne, on 13 November 2012 - 12:28 AM, said:

Copyright infringement would specifically refer to the "unseen" issue, concerning whoever suing whoever over images being "too similar" to another IP. Licensing agreements specifically dictate the conditions that you may use an IP in, and what you may use it for.

Also 20% is not as much as you think it may be. Nearly all of the Unseen could be re-released with only minor tweaking. People like to go overboard, though, so when something needs redesigning.... "Re-do ALL the things!"

A LOT OF MISINFORMATION SO FAR:

Fasa licensed the art directly from Studio Nue in Japan a year before HG licensed Super Dimensional Fortress Macross from Tatsunoko. Studio Nue is the studio that did the anime shows where the mechs appeared in. Not a single case brought against Fasa for the original art was ever won by HG. The only suit that Fasa lost was against Playmates over the Mad Cat design.

It took the Japanese courts twenty years to resolve the issues surrounding the copyrights for SDFM between Studio Nue and Tatsunoko. In the end, the Japanese courts, in 2002, ruled that Studio Nue owns the copyrights to mecha and character designs while Tatsunoko only owns the copyrights to SDFM series. The end result of all this is that HG does not have a valid license for the mecha and character designs from SDFM, but Fasa did. Tatsunoko cannot license something they do not own and as far as I know Studio Nue hasn't licensed the designs to HG either.

What this means that under the Berne Convention, Japan, Canada, and the US are signatories to, that HG is out of luck if they attempt to sue or are sued by a North American company as the Japanese ruling is admissible in a US or Canadian court. HG does not have a legal leg to stand on since they received their license for the mechs and characters from Tatsunoko not Studio Nue.

Keep on thinking that HG is in the right when the legal cases and facts say different. It just makes you look foolish. The long and the short of all this is that PGI could put in the original designs for the Unseen as long as they get a license from Studio Nue for them. Fasa never stole anything and had a legal license to use the art. HG used deep pocket legal bullying to force Fasa to drop the art because they were in the wrong. HG are the ones that infringed upon Studio Nue's copyrights and continue to do so.

Edited by James The Fox Dixon, 13 November 2012 - 02:09 AM.

[Ewigan]

Good artwork there Phoenix, but i would HATE to get this marauder. it looks just.... wrong!

[HumanDuracell]

One way that this could be resolved..

Skin mods.

If the 'Mechs in question were added into the game and complied with any copyright issues, why couldn't some talented individuals create the skin mods to revert them back to their unseen versions?

I'm sure there are some very creative skin modders amongst you.

This way the game Devs don't get taken to the cleaners for copyright infringement, those who really want to see the unseens get the 'Mechs they have been dying to see in-game. And those that couldn't care less about the visual aesthetics get a few more 'Mechs to play with no matter what they look like.

Everyone wins.

[Onyx Rain]

Ewigan, on 13 November 2012 - 02:05 AM, said:

Good artwork there Phoenix, but i would HATE to get this marauder. it looks just.... wrong!

I'd pilot it...other then the colors being kinda crappy, looks good to me. Put some ears on it and you'd have a Timber Wolf...I'd pilot that too.

Edanomel, on 13 November 2012 - 02:31 AM, said:

One way that this could be resolved..

Skin mods.

If the 'Mechs in question were added into the game and complied with any copyright issues, why couldn't some talented individuals create the skin mods to revert them back to their unseen versions?

I'm sure there are some very creative skin modders amongst you.

This way the game Devs don't get taken to the cleaners for copyright infringement, those who really want to see the unseens get the 'Mechs they have been dying to see in-game. And those that couldn't care less about the visual aesthetics get a few more 'Mechs to play with no matter what they look like.

Everyone wins.

The problem with that is if the skin doesn't match the model and hit-boxs you'll be shooting at something's ears and be hitting the air...or their arm, or something else....So you could use the skins to get people to shoot at non vital areas, or miss completely.

[Joseph Mallan]

DirePhoenix, on 13 November 2012 - 01:01 AM, said:

Murky water? How is this water murky? What is so hard to understand? The art is in contention, not the name, not the stats/layout, not the 'mechs themselves. The art.

Solution: Make new, original art. Guess what? EVERYTHING IN MWO IS NEW ORIGINAL ART ALREADY! Regardless of "unseen" or not. Creating new original art for the "unseen" wouldn't be that much more of a process than how they're already redesigning all of the current 'mechs they've already announced.

The 'nods' to the "unseen" that they've been doing in non-unseen 'mechs only exacerbate the problem more than satisfy our desires to see the actual 'mechs.

Case in point. Let's look at the Cataphract. Here's how it originally appeared in TRO 3050:



Here's the MAD-5D Marauder in the same TRO, by the same artist:



These two 'mechs have the same legs and the same right arm. Let's take a look at how the Cataphract looks in MWO:



Now, we can see this is clearly new original art, different from the TRO 3050 Cataphract, but it's still close enough to tell what it is. Even more than that, we even have some familiar legs and arms here. If we reverse the process used to make the TRO Cataphract and take the MWO Cataphract's legs, duplicate the right arm to replace the left, and toss a new torso in there with some sort of dorsal cannon, what do we get?



And there we have it. An "Unseen" that is not using the art in contention. It's there. It's obvious. And it's even more frustrating that we can see how awesome it *could* be in this game when we have these 'mechs with these 'nods', but yet don't actually have these 'mechs themselves.

These 'mechs are important, regardless of what images are being used to represent them. Every single one of the "Unseen" were supposed to be staples of the SLDF, and even after the fall of the Star League, they were most common and abundant 'mechs in the Inner Sphere for hundreds of years, across all the Houses. We need these 'mechs to appear again. FD is more than capable of coming up with new, possibly even cooler art for them. PGI needs to make this happen.

Just slim it down a bit (or call this the Marauder II), and I like it.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 13 November 2012 - 05:14 AM.