749 replies to this topic

[Lord0fHats]

I'm not really sure why people are freaking out over this... The Reseen versions of the mechs on the Cover have been around for awhile. FASA and Catalyst came to terms with HG on the issue years ago.

The road block for MWO has never been HG, it's been Tatsunoko, who is likely to sue PGI if the Robotech based mechs ever appear in MWO. FASA's agreement with these mechs is with HG, and HG's rights to the Robotech license are only recognized in North American courts.

[RedDevil]

Just an update: my Hellbringer's Warhammer load-out is making me ready for the real thing. I even got some MG kills last night!

[Alan Davion]

Lord0fHats, on 25 July 2015 - 12:57 PM, said:

I'm not really sure why people are freaking out over this... The Reseen versions of the mechs on the Cover have been around for awhile. FASA and Catalyst came to terms with HG on the issue years ago.

The road block for MWO has never been HG, it's been Tatsunoko, who is likely to sue PGI if the Robotech based mechs ever appear in MWO. FASA's agreement with these mechs is with HG, and HG's rights to the Robotech license are only recognized in North American courts.

The 3067-3085+ Phoenix Reseen versions, yes.

What CGL is doing is going back to the 2500-3025 versions of these mechs and updating them to get around the roadblock known as HG, that or they've worked out a deal with HG. Though I'd think if they'd done that they would have said something to that affect.

That's what the buzz is about.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Sereglach, on 24 July 2015 - 09:25 PM, said:

When I saw that, all I could think is that those things aren't just reimagined unseens . . . they pretty much are unseens. Looking at the thumbnail image they look like straight up unseen mechs. It's only when you pull them up and look close that you see any amount of difference. This means that either Catalyst has some secret weapons in it's art or legal research; or it's about to get really ugly for Catalyst when Harmony Gold comes calling.

Regardless, HG WILL come calling with a complaint. It's just a matter of what the results will be.

Well I believe the rule is that if you use something [we'll use the Warhammer as an example, or Tomohawk destroid as it's called in Robotech] it can only be 74% of the original work, if you change 36% of the design, in any way, you can legaly use it [and it's why Marvel got away with using a Tomohawk destroid and didn't have HG breathing down their neck.]


So, yeah...

[Lord0fHats]

Alan Davion, on 25 July 2015 - 01:09 PM, said:

The 3067-3085+ Phoenix Reseen versions, yes.

What CGL is doing is going back to the 2500-3025 versions of these mechs and updating them to get around the roadblock known as HG, that or they've worked out a deal with HG. Though I'd think if they'd done that they would have said something to that affect.

That's what the buzz is about.

Ah, I see.

Is that even a legal issue? I always found the "pre-3067 mechs are still Unseen" thing bizarre. It seemed like another one of FASA's pointless and weird policy decisions than anything having to do with HG, cause with all the hate for HG people forget that makers of Battletech have made many a stupid decision over the many years.

[Alan Davion]

Lord0fHats, on 25 July 2015 - 01:25 PM, said:

Ah, I see.

Is that even a legal issue? I always found the "pre-3067 mechs are still Unseen" thing bizarre. It seemed like another one of FASA's pointless and weird policy decisions than anything having to do with HG, cause with all the hate for HG people forget that makers of Battletech have made many a stupid decision over the many years.

It pretty much always has been a legal issue... An overly convoluted legal issue, but a legal issue all the same. After the original 3025 TROs, the Macross and Dougram derived mechs did not appear again until the 3055 and 3067 Phoenix TROs.

The 3055 TRO turned them into Clan mechs, and altered the designs enough for them to be used, but only as Clan second line mechs until the Phoenix TRO which returned them to the IS, but only to be used for the 3067-3085 era and beyond... I will not mention the eras following the FedCom Civil War because those are even more distasteful than the Clan Invasion was.

What CGL is doing is bringing those mechs back to be able to be used in the Succession War era of play, 2781-3049 specifically, and, ask any TT RPG/Wargame BT/MW player, they'll say that was the best era. I never played TT, but even I have to agree with them on it.

Now, for the longest time, HG was just too much of a powerhouse, financially speaking, so Fasa, then later WizKids and FanPro just couldn't stand up to them.

Now, Catalyst Games, with the backing of Topps, a sports card company surprisingly, might actually have the finances to beat HG at their own game.

Yes, Fasa was just as much at fault as HG was, but ultimately, it was HG that caused these mechs to disappear from the game for many years, simply due to their financial superiority.

They could have completely erased Fasa from existence if they wanted, but they got what they wanted in the end, the removal of the Macross derived mechs, and that's all that mattered at the time. Sometime later, HG allowed the return of the Ostscout, Ostroc and Ostsol, which had been based on the Zentradi battle pods, but had obviously been heavily altered even back then in order to make them fit into the BT/MW universe.

The removal of the Dougram derived mechs was a decision by Fasa in case that anime ever came over, which obviously it did not, so frankly those mechs should be allowed to be used in their original forms, in all eras of play, which CGL may very well be working towards.

[kosmos1214]

Flash Frame, on 25 July 2015 - 01:09 PM, said:

Well I believe the rule is that if you use something [we'll use the Warhammer as an example, or Tomohawk destroid as it's called in Robotech] it can only be 74% of the original work, if you change 36% of the design, in any way, you can legaly use it [and it's why Marvel got away with using a Tomohawk destroid and didn't have HG breathing down their neck.]


So, yeah...

mind if i ask what comic this is from?

[DaZur]

Harumph...

This does nothing to bring the Hammerhands into the game.

[SgtMagor]

https://prometheusri...m/2009/01/5.jpg

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

kosmos1214, on 25 July 2015 - 02:03 PM, said:

mind if i ask what comic this is from?

It was during the "Fear itself" storyline in Avengers I do believe.

http://marvel.com/co...302/fear_itself

[Sereglach]

stjobe, on 25 July 2015 - 10:15 AM, said:

Since there's no background to the dual dismissal, it could as well be that Hasbro paid HG enough to make them drop the suit - which of course means they'll go after Catalyst guns blazing.

But it could also be that Hasbro's lawyers showed HG exactly how much trying take a $4 billion yearly revenue multinational to court would cost HG - which would mean HG could still go after Catalyst guns blazing.

Or, and here's what I'm hoping, Hasbro's lawyers looked into HGs claims to Macross, found out that HG hasn't a leg to stand on, and said "drop it, or we'll sue YOU out of existence" - in which case Catalyst might be safe.

Unfortunately a dual dismissal means just that. Both parties just sat down, decided to drop the subject, and never bring that specific situation back up (doesn't mean that they couldn't sue if Hasbro decided to suddenly go back to using the old Jetfire Valkyrie molds, where were HG properties, and not their current modified version). There are a few things with this:

1. It never entered a courtroom, so there was never a ruling, and therefore no precedent on how much something would need to deviate from HG art assets. This still opens the doors for HG to go after Catalyst.

2. Nothing, literally 100% nothing, is exchanged in a dual dismissal . . . in fact both parties are forced to pay their own legal fees. Therefore, there was no negotiating and no settlements. Legally it's a draw, and basically that the original lawsuit, and the countersuit, would negate each other and/or have nothing to stand on.

3. The situation also leaves any legs that HG could or couldn't stand on in lawsuits up in the air, so they can still go ape suing whomever they want over Intellectual Property (IP) infringements. That means Catalyst is doubly vulnerable.

Flash Frame, on 25 July 2015 - 01:09 PM, said:

Well I believe the rule is that if you use something [we'll use the Warhammer as an example, or Tomohawk destroid as it's called in Robotech] it can only be 74% of the original work, if you change 36% of the design, in any way, you can legaly use it [and it's why Marvel got away with using a Tomohawk destroid and didn't have HG breathing down their neck.]

So, yeah...

It needs to be different enough to not be blatantly derived from the assets or IP of the original materials in question. Cathy has it right that from an outward appearance, these things SCREAM unseen, which leads many of us to worry.

Your Marvel picture of the "warhammer" is such a mishmash of various mech parts that it's not really part of anything. That's how they got away with deriving the pieces that they used. The outward appearance is nothing like anything from Battletech or Robotech.

In the case of Transformers Jetfire and the Robotech Valkyrie, they're both derived from the real life F-14 Tomcat fighter. Therefore, despite the fact that they were similar, Hasbro was handily able to point to their original source of inspiration for Jetfire, which just so happened to be the same inspiration used for the Verotechs. This legally left both companies in a quandary, which both realized that no matter what ruling was made, it would create the openings for NASTY legal battles across many companies for Intellectual Property disputes.

Thusly, they both just decided to drop it and go their separate ways. Unfortunately, that does nothing to protect Catalyst or make Harmony Gold shut the hell up already.

Edited by Sereglach, 25 July 2015 - 03:03 PM.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Sereglach, on 25 July 2015 - 03:01 PM, said:

Unfortunately a dual dismissal means just that. Both parties just sat down, decided to drop the subject, and never bring that specific situation back up (doesn't mean that they couldn't sue if Hasbro decided to suddenly go back to using the old Jetfire Valkyrie molds, where were HG properties, and not their current modified version). There are a few things with this:

1. It never entered a courtroom, so there was never a ruling, and therefore no precedent on how much something would need to deviate from HG art assets. This still opens the doors for HG to go after Catalyst.

2. Nothing, literally 100% nothing, is exchanged in a dual dismissal . . . in fact both parties are forced to pay their own legal fees. Therefore, there was no negotiating and no settlements. Legally it's a draw, and basically that the original lawsuit, and the countersuit, would negate each other and/or have nothing to stand on.

3. The situation also leaves any legs that HG could or couldn't stand on in lawsuits up in the air, so they can still go ape suing whomever they want over Intellectual Property (IP) infringements. That means Catalyst is doubly vulnerable.



It needs to be different enough to not be blatantly derived from the assets or IP of the original materials in question. Cathy has it right that from an outward appearance, these things SCREAM unseen, which leads many of us to worry.

Your Marvel picture of the "warhammer" is such a mishmash of various mech parts that it's not really part of anything. That's how they got away with deriving the pieces that they used. The outward appearance is nothing like anything from Battletech or Robotech.

In the case of Transformers Jetfire and the Robotech Valkyrie, they're both derived from the real life F-14 Tomcat fighter. Therefore, despite the fact that they were similar, Hasbro was handily able to point to their original source of inspiration for Jetfire, which just so happened to be the same inspiration used for the Verotechs. This legally left both companies in a quandary, which both realized that no matter what ruling was made, it would create the openings for NASTY legal battles across many companies for Intellectual Property disputes.

Thusly, they both just decided to drop it and go their separate ways. Unfortunately, that does nothing to protect Catalyst or make Harmony Gold shut the hell up already.

Well I'm actually speaking as someone who went to school for Media in all forms.

If you take something that is copywritten and want to get away with using it, if you change it by 36% vs what the original image looked like. You can argue it and generally win. This is literally, what teachers in art colleges teach you, and what the industry leaders have flat out said.

[Alan Davion]

Flash Frame, on 25 July 2015 - 03:12 PM, said:

Well I'm actually speaking as someone who went to school for Media in all forms.

If you take something that is copywritten and want to get away with using it, if you change it by 36% vs what the original image looked like. You can argue it and generally win. This is literally, what teachers in art colleges teach you, and what the industry leaders have flat out said.

So the question now is, has this re-done Warhammer by CGL been changed enough to meet that mark?

[Av4tar]

Time for repost

[Sereglach]

Flash Frame, on 25 July 2015 - 03:12 PM, said:

Well I'm actually speaking as someone who went to school for Media in all forms.

If you take something that is copywritten and want to get away with using it, if you change it by 36% vs what the original image looked like. You can argue it and generally win. This is literally, what teachers in art colleges teach you, and what the industry leaders have flat out said.

Key word: generally. It depends on what 36% you're changing. If I give something a drastically different paint job, some different cockpit lines, and maybe square off a few curves, then I've probably changed 36%. Will that stand up in court? . . . Not hardly.

Your teachers gave you a basic guideline for ripping something off, but not ripping it off enough to be nailed for plagiarizing someone else's stuff. Also, that seriously depends on what you're ripping off. Some generic graphic design is going to be a bit more lenient then a highly detailed novel, movie script, physical merchandise, or art assets. Especially when Harmony Gold is involved.

Now, if you said you were a law student studying trademark, copyright, and patent proceedings, then I'd probably give you a bit more credence here. No offense, but you're going off of what hack college professors tell you (and if they're teaching you to steal other people's work, don't be surprised when they're stealing students work to keep themselves "known" . . . and they're probably telling you a lowball number to make sure they steal from you, but you can't successfully steal from them). That's coming from the fact that my fiancée illustrates children's books, and you've got to be really careful of what you're drawing and how, because you have to go out of your way to make sure your art doesn't look like someone else's art . . . not even remotely.

Heck, Apple successfully sued over the curves of a phone (Apple vs. Samsung, 2012) . . . regardless of everything else being different. That's a lot more than 36% change, but the IP holders of Apple handily won that lawsuit. Therefore, you really need to be careful on what you're copying and the fight you're picking and whom you're picking it with.

In the case of Catalyst, unfortunately HG has a long track record of being able to bully the Battletech Franchise, and therefore it sets precedents in their favor. That's why we're all hoping that either Catalyst found some loophole, or they've got some secret weapon in their art to use against HG in any potential lawsuit. We say that also, because there hasn't been any mention of a deal being worked out to let CGL reimage the original unseen in very much original unseen fashion. Therefore, they already know they're "diving into the deep end" (as even stated in their article) and hoping this all works out.

[Johnny Z]

Sereglach, on 25 July 2015 - 03:38 PM, said:

Key word: generally. It depends on what 36% you're changing. If I give something a drastically different paint job, some different cockpit lines, and maybe square off a few curves, then I've probably changed 36%. Will that stand up in court? . . . Not hardly.

Your teachers gave you a basic guideline for ripping something off, but not ripping it off enough to be nailed for plagiarizing someone else's stuff. Also, that seriously depends on what you're ripping off. Some generic graphic design is going to be a bit more lenient then a highly detailed novel, movie script, physical merchandise, or art assets. Especially when Harmony Gold is involved.

Now, if you said you were a law student studying trademark, copyright, and patent proceedings, then I'd probably give you a bit more credence here. No offense, but you're going off of what hack college professors tell you (and if they're teaching you to steal other people's work, don't be surprised when they're stealing students work to keep themselves "known" . . . and they're probably telling you a lowball number to make sure they steal from you, but you can't successfully steal from them). That's coming from the fact that my fiancée illustrates children's books, and you've got to be really careful of what you're drawing and how, because you have to go out of your way to make sure your art doesn't look like someone else's art . . . not even remotely.

Heck, Apple successfully sued over the curves of a phone (Apple vs. Samsung, 2012) . . . regardless of everything else being different. That's a lot more than 36% change, but the IP holders of Apple handily won that lawsuit. Therefore, you really need to be careful on what you're copying and the fight you're picking and whom you're picking it with.

In the case of Catalyst, unfortunately HG has a long track record of being able to bully the Battletech Franchise, and therefore it sets precedents in their favor. That's why we're all hoping that either Catalyst found some loophole, or they've got some secret weapon in their art to use against HG in any potential lawsuit. We say that also, because there hasn't been any mention of a deal being worked out to let CGL reimage the original unseen in very much original unseen fashion. Therefore, they already know they're "diving into the deep end" (as even stated in their article) and hoping this all works out.

I would guess they came to an agreement, not unknown among business people.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Sereglach, on 25 July 2015 - 03:38 PM, said:

snip

Well, yeah.

Look, I'm just saying, it should be changed enough.

I'm just as steeped in battletech as anyone else here ok, I know the story of the FASA vs. H.G. case just as well as anyone else [and pulled most of that knowledge from stuff off the CBT boards.]

Trust me, if ANYONE is pulling for CGL to get this past Harmony Gold, it's me. The Unseen are near and dear to my heart despite having been BORN the year Battletech was released. The base game is literally as old as I am.

So, yes, I agree, entirely. Don't think that I don't. But god damn, if Catalyst isn't jumping the gun again [They DID jump the gun for the 25th anniversary with the 25 years of art and fiction table book which originally had a warhammer, but had to be reprinted after a CnD and changed to the Hammerhands.] Then we may actually have a chance to get these mechs in game.

[kosmos1214]

Flash Frame, on 25 July 2015 - 02:35 PM, said:

It was during the "Fear itself" storyline in Avengers I do believe.

http://marvel.com/co...302/fear_itself

thank you

[Bleary]

Dudes need to hurry up and slap together a Project Phoenix II pack so I can shove my money down their throat.

[Sereglach]

Johnny Z, on 25 July 2015 - 03:43 PM, said:

I would guess they came to an agreement, not unknown among business people.

If you're referring to the HG vs. Hasbro, then look at my posts a few back. There's no deal. It was a "dual dismissal". I go over that in a bit more depth.

However, if you're referring to Catalyst, I still don't think there's a deal. Otherwise CGL wouldn't have gone on about how "Project Phoenix was right at the time" and now they're "jumping in the deep end" and giving it a go to "reimage" the unseens. The Catalyst Battletech article gives no indications that they've made any sort of deal. I think if they HAD made a deal, then it'd be one of the top lines of the article . . . something like "Harmony Gold approves our reimagined unseens! Welcome back the original chassis of Battletech!"

Either they've got a "secret weapon"/"ace up their sleeve" in the artwork, or they've found some sort of loophole to exploit. Either that, or they're just getting really ballsy in this attempt at bringing back the unseens in true unseen fashion.