Shadey99, on 14 August 2015 - 09:09 PM, said:
Really? _I_ have the wrong answer? No. Absolutely No. If PGI changes this they need to remove the 'mechwarrior' label on the game. The way Clan XLs work is one of the core fundamentals of building clan mechs in the source material. Stop thinking they need balanced. A fully tweaked out clan mech was absolutely always more capable than an IS mech of the same tonnage (usually this was a 10-15 ton advantage). There is no changing that without making MWO silly.
The problem is that the counters to this in the source material are things PGI won't or can't do such as the star versus lance organization (2 five man stars versus 3 four person lances, clans regularly under-tonning fights, etc). When they did this in CW by giving the IS 10 whole extra tons they quickly reverted back again. They say their stats suggested this was actually to much of an edge for IS. How exactly that can be the case if you all believe clan XLs are so overpowered is amazing.
THAT right there, is the wrong way to think. This is a 12 v 12 PVP game. You can't have one side be overpowered compared to the other. Otherwise, why would anyone pilot bad mechs. So we need to implement methods of balancing that. With asymmetric teams being out of the question. This leaves only one option: quirks. Buffs, and nerfs.
Shadey99, on 14 August 2015 - 09:09 PM, said:
This is just laughable. I normally like you, but this is just becoming silly. You guys have some sort of axe to grind against clan mechs that cannot be generally supported. You all swear til your blue in the face that it's completely logical, but the real world results don't match up. Their are a few specific cases of actual issues, but you guys seem to have gone overboard and painted them all with the same brush.
I've already mentioned mechs that lose 2/3rds of their weapons by losing a side torso. Heck, almost across the board the most common location for weapons on clan mechs is the arms. Think Mist Lynxes (all arms), Kit Foxes (small ballistics in the STs at most), Arctic Cheetahs (At most 3E in the STs), Adders (1E in the side torsos, 1E CT), Ice Ferrets (1E CT, 1M ST), Shadowcats (1E ST, 3B ST though special variant), Novas (at most 2B or 1E in each ST), Stormcrows (2M or 1 E STs), Mad Dogs (only missiles in the STs), Summoners (1B/1M can go in STs), Gargoyles (up to 2E in the CT), Warhawk (1E or 2M in 1 ST), Executioner (at most 3E between both STs). All of those have their primary weapons in the arms and can at most hold 3 energy weapons in the torsos total, this is with arms that can hold up to 6 at the extreme! Since you lose the arm when you lose the torso it's connected to (except for the occasional bug), you are going to lose a significant amount of firepower by losing a ST even if you don't die.
Yes, you'd lose /some/ firepower. Aside from the MLX, you're never really losing more than 40%. The Executioner might lose more with a Right torso loss, but it still brings considerable firepower with it's left side armament.
Look, we don't have "an axe to grind". I'm a clan mech owner. I pre-ordered wave 1, and haven't regretted a thing about them. I love my clan mechs. Including my latest purchase: The Arctic Cheetah. However, at the same time, I recognize there are balance issues.
The argument that clan tech should be superior is wrong, in this game. It shouldn't be used, since this is an equal teams PVP game. Give me one good reason why people should pilot IS mechs, against clan mechs, if clan mechs are given their full, and actual stats? 2 slot DHS, 7 slot Endo, and FF, Smaller XL engines, that don't die to ST loss, 1.5 times the range on almost every weapon, with about double the damage or more. Swappable hardpoints. U-ACs of all sizes. Half weight, and slot cost missile launchers, with more damage, no minimum range, and better spread. Plus single ton, single slot CAP, and ECM.
Give me a single reason why an IS pilot should fight against that? You're going to lose, 100% of the time, every time. Why would you play?
This is why balance is needed, and why certain things need to be buffed, or nerfed. C-XLs can't die to single ST loss, so they need to have some other kind of penalty.
It's really simple, an IS mech can choose between bringing a STD engine, with half it's firepower potential, but not die to ST loss, or bring an XL engine, with it's full firepower potential, but die as soon as one side is dead.
A clan mech just brings an XL engine with it's full weight savings, it's full firepower potential, and still not die to ST loss. There is literally no downside to C-XLs. They are flat out better than any engine in the game, including IS STD engines.
Here's a simplified version : IS XL, you die. Clan XL, you lose some firepower. You tell me how that's balanced. IF we bring 12 IS XL mechs, vs. 12 C-XL mechs, tell them each to pick one enemy mech, and remove 1 ST, and let the IS go first. The match will end with the 12 clan mechs alive, and the 12 IS mechs dead.
Shadey99, on 14 August 2015 - 09:09 PM, said:
Heck here is an IS example: Bog standard meta TDR-5SS. 2 MPLs in the right arm, 2 MPLs in the right torso, 3 Mpls in the left torso. Lose one side or the other and you have lost either 4/7ths or 3/7ths of your firepower. While you can kill someone with 3 or 4 mpls, your task has gotten almost twice as hard.
If you want utter symmetry how about a standard 260 BJ-1X with 8 medium lasers, 4 on each side. Again, lose a torso lose half your combat potential.
I used to run the BJ-1X, without an XL engine, you shouldn't take that mech to the field. Tell me which build works better:
BJ-1X STD engine
My, those 12 DHS are mighty helpful. Especially when the average clan mech has about 15+
OR
BJ-1X
Oh hey, look at that! 18 DHS, with a far superior heating scale, and even better firepower, thanks to 2 MPLs.
Clan mechs don't have any of those problems, because of their engines.
They don't need to choose between crappy firepower but better durability, or good firepower, but almost no durability
They get both, while IS mechs have to pick one or the other.
It's also funny that you used the TDR-5SS. A mech that was considered absolute garbage, until it got quirked to kingdom come, because the IS had no heavies that could hold a candle to clan heavies. The TDR used to be crap because the only to really get it going was with using XL engines, and things like 7 MPLs were insane on it, because of the heat, and the fact that IS MPLs had a ghost heat cap of 6 on them. It wasn't until after clan MPLs started melting the game to slag that IS MPLs got their ghost heat cap removed, and even then, on mechs that aren't quirked as hell for them, they can't do jack.
Before quirks, that 7 MPL TDR would cook it's self to death from the heat, since it could barely alpha 2 or 3 times, at spitting distance (remember the real range for IS MPLs: 220/440)
Shadey99, on 14 August 2015 - 09:09 PM, said:
If you insist on clan mechs (besides my Shadowcat example I used earlier). Then lets get back on topic and go with a Arctic Cheetah Prime with 4 SPLs and 2 SRM4s (My most effective ACH build statistically). Losing a ST loses half my guns. You drop from a 40 point alpha to a 20. Half your weapons is statistically a lot. Worse in a ACH you'll usually lose your arms first, so you lose the missiles and half your lasers, leaving you just 2 SPLs to fight with. 12 damage at very close range isn't all that scary. You could switch to ERMLs, but those run considerably hotter and do 2 more damage at the same point.
So regardless of what mech it is, losing a side torso is a significant lose in game terms and will directly impact your performance. Clan XLs do have a penalty, which is that if you take both sides out your gone. Standards are more durable. Either way though just aim for the CT! Every type of mech regardless of engine dies to the CT going bye bye. So shot the CT! End of story, nothing more needs to be done. Or heck, shot his legs off for all I care every mech dies when it loses two of those as well.
Yet do the same with the Firestarter, and you drop from a 40 point alpha to dead. Instead of 20.
There is no way around that simple fact.
Also "just aim for the CT" is a good way to deal with clan engines, but it doesn't mean they are balanced. Since with IS mechs, I can kill them by shooting 3 different locations when they have an XL engine. While a clan mech only has ONE lethal location. Being three times more survivable is a testament in it's own right.
When you see a 3xUAC 5 Jager mech raining lead, you immediately go for it's ST Needing to go through about 80 HP only to kill it. Instead of the 116 or so to go through it's CT, and take the entire mech out of the field.
Whereas facing down a UAC 25 Ebon Jaguar, leaves you with only one option. Going through that entire 116 HP to kill it through the CT, or 160 to kill it by destroying both STs.
both are 65 ton heavies. It takes one 80 damage to die (that's with near-suicidal rear armor), and it takes the other 116 to die. That's a flat 36 health increase to the mech, for free!, while also giving it 2 free slots extra to mess with, on top of the fact that it uses Clan Endo, and Clan FF, which are each 7 slots, instead of 14. This is of course, while the EBJ is packing more than double the firepower (UAC 25 +Lasers vs. UAC 15). Which part of that sounds balanced to you?
P.S.: You can still disagree with people, and like them at the same time, the two are not mutually exclusive.
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