86 replies to this topic

[Wildstreak]

You don't need Streaks. I find myself using Streaks less often, they are a good learning tool and useful for Mediums+ but not needed over time. Streaks:
- cost more tonnage. SRMs give more room for more ammo or other things.
- need lock on. In fast, short range engagements, you actually do not want to wait for lock-on. I found many times where when I got lock-on, I was already past my target and lost it in less than a second. Sometimes I did not get lock on quick enough.
- have longer cooldowns. This means less firings even with a cooldown module.
SRMs give more advanatges and encourage aim more. The only thing Streaks have going for them is range on Clan ones, that is negated with the fast speed of Lights.

InspectorG, on 10 August 2015 - 01:47 PM, said:

And besides, ask any decent Light pilot what their fear is. Its not Streaks. Hint: Begins with 'Dual' and ends with 'Gauss'.

Nope, decent Light pilots know how to avoid most Dual Gauss shots, I have and I am not in the top league of pilots here.
Decent Light pilots fear:
- Decent Light pilots.
- the even rarer breed, the Decent Overall Pilot with the Super Mega Alpha Strike using Pinpoint Convergence that kills him. There are bigger alphas than 30 points out there on Mechs that sacrifice less than most Dual Gauss builds.

Dino Might, on 12 August 2015 - 02:24 AM, said:

I'm going to design an IS mech, and you tell me if it's OP or not.


Runs 142 kph with a standard engine
Mounts 5 medium pulse lasers and ECM
Is the size of a Mist Lynx
Has 4 JJs with armament
Has armor + structure of a Raven
Has hardpoint location of a Stalker

Now, you tell me...what's wrong with this picture?
This is what the ACH is. It can be killed, definitely, but give me a gosh darn break about how it's "totally balanced." It's better than a Firestarter, and Firestarters are still kinda broken.

Most of that sound like the Firestarter.
- Runs faster
- Got weapons but no ECM
- Same size as Cheetah
- Can carry 4 JJs
- Has Armor & Structure of 35 tonner
- Neither has a Stalkers hardpoints but they are probably close.

Differences are
- Cheetah can mix and match pod quirks
- Cheetah has Structure buffs giving a slight health edge in some locations, without these the FS has the slight edge.
- Cheetah has ECM but this only gives advantages based on terrain and jumping.
--- Terrain, in the open, FS and ACH are even, ECM will not matter to the FS and the FS pilot can use his eyes to track his target. In cities and places with lots of obstructions, the ACH can use terrain plus the ECM stealth to maneuver for sneak attacks more.
--- Seismic module negates ECM advantage within its radius. To prevent this, a ACH pilot (or any other ECM user like Lynxes) needs to master jump attacking when getting close to its target, NOT an easy skill especially against another fast Light like the FS.

Really, the way this discussion and others like it go, I may have to propose something to PGI and the Community.

[InspectorG]

Wildstreak, on 12 August 2015 - 07:41 AM, said:

Nope, decent Light pilots know how to avoid most Dual Gauss shots, I have and I am not in the top league of pilots here.
Decent Light pilots fear:
- Decent Light pilots.
- the even rarer breed, the Decent Overall Pilot with the Super Mega Alpha Strike using Pinpoint Convergence that kills him. There are bigger alphas than 30 points out there on Mechs that sacrifice less than most Dual Gauss builds.

Pretty much but vomit can be twisted. Its still the Gauss that gets you. Needless to say, players who can aim EITHER are to be feared.

Ill fear another light pilot in a FS or Cheeter, so yeah. If they 'Circle of Death'...i got them. If they do '8's or tap JJ to cut turns i know i got a fight on my hands.

Valid points but

[MechWarrior3671771]

"SRMs give more advanatges and encourage aim more."

I'm getting very poor hitreg with SRMs (Raven 3L, 8SRM Artemis). Hence the streaks.

[Tesunie]

Fenrisulvyn, on 12 August 2015 - 04:59 PM, said:

"SRMs give more advanatges and encourage aim more."

I'm getting very poor hitreg with SRMs (Raven 3L, 8SRM Artemis). Hence the streaks.

Even though it's better now than it was in the past, I still notice entire volleys just not doing anything, even if it's a visual direct hit. (Which is why I chain fire my SRMs...)


I still have to laugh a little. Every mech that seems to come out is accused of being OP (except for the Spider. That was DOA. ). Is it just me who seems to notice this trend for the most part?

[IridescentIris]

Most people complaining about every clan mech do so because they don't have one. This creates a major issue with their arguments;

They've never piloted one so all they see is "MORE TONNAGE" and scream op. Meaning they have no clue just how limited clan mechs really are with heat and slots. Not to mention the dozen other nerfs that pretty much have leveled the playing field.

Seriously guys. Just cause you whine and scream like 8 year olds, doesn't mean PGI will make this game as easy as COD. If you want to be able to sit pretty with what you've got and expect to get somewhere with no skills, then go back to COD.

It all boils down to how skilled you are. And you gain skill and improve by playing.

[Wildstreak]

InspectorG, on 12 August 2015 - 04:20 PM, said:

Pretty much but vomit can be twisted. Its still the Gauss that gets you. Needless to say, players who can aim EITHER are to be feared.

I still have to respectfully disagree because of what happens to dual Gauss builds in the PUG matches I have been in.

Every time I see a Dual Gauss Mech be it Jager, Crab, Dire or whatever, I always get on in game VOIP and announce it. "Dual Gauss (Mech type) in C3 Kilo target," or whatever. More often than not, that Dual Gauss gets focused on, rarely left alone, even if I am the only one using VOIP. Even in the 'trash tier PUG matches' Dual Gauss has a rep and gets focused on. That is half it takes to neuter a Dual Gauss the other half being movement. Dodge properly and you can evade the Dual Gauss shot.

[InspectorG]

Wildstreak, on 12 August 2015 - 06:17 PM, said:

. "Dual Gauss (Mech type) in C3 Kilo target," or whatever.

Well, you must have a magic voice or something. I tell Pugs to move/push/target/etc and...nothing.

[Nightshade24]

If I can pic 1 mech that'll **** the arctic cheetah- it would be an AC 20 urbanmech.

Biggest weakness to clan light omnimechs is that they are slow enough to be reliably hit by gauss or ac 20's making it a sitting duck for say an urbanmech- who can leg it in 2 shots and kill it with another 2 shots.

Jenner IIC? we cna't say much, for all we know clan tech will further be nerfed for battlemechs exclusively such as clan SRM's and SSRM's will come out in a stream and such. For all we know it may be the worst clan light mech upon revival due to over-nerfing.

[Dino Might]

ChainedWings, on 12 August 2015 - 06:16 PM, said:

Most people complaining about every clan mech do so because they don't have one. This creates a major issue with their arguments;

They've never piloted one so all they see is "MORE TONNAGE" and scream op. Meaning they have no clue just how limited clan mechs really are with heat and slots. Not to mention the dozen other nerfs that pretty much have leveled the playing field.

Seriously guys. Just cause you whine and scream like 8 year olds, doesn't mean PGI will make this game as easy as COD. If you want to be able to sit pretty with what you've got and expect to get somewhere with no skills, then go back to COD.

It all boils down to how skilled you are. And you gain skill and improve by playing.

Then listen to the ones who don't fit in your nice little "box 'o ignorance." I have the ACH, with double basics, running small pulse, and it shreds like no other mech in the arsenal. It's stupid OP, and it's not fun to play because of it. So after 15 some matches, I dumped it in the trash bin.

Want to put me in the box because I don't have skills? I've posted here and elsewhere a few videos that will probably show you that I know how to pilot lights, at least once in a blue moon, when I get super lucky...

I'm screaming OP because its paper stats translate exactly as expected into the game, and it's flat out OP because of it. Really, please give me a reason why I'm wrong other than, "you must not have it or you must not be good." I have given objective criteria for judging it OP, now you give some objective criteria for judging it to be balanced.

[ExoForce]

ACH is so suboptimal and fragile. It needs additional positive quirks.

[IraqiWalker]

ChainedWings, on 12 August 2015 - 06:16 PM, said:

Most people complaining about every clan mech do so because they don't have one. This creates a major issue with their arguments;

They've never piloted one so all they see is "MORE TONNAGE" and scream op. Meaning they have no clue just how limited clan mechs really are with heat and slots. Not to mention the dozen other nerfs that pretty much have leveled the playing field.

Seriously guys. Just cause you whine and scream like 8 year olds, doesn't mean PGI will make this game as easy as COD. If you want to be able to sit pretty with what you've got and expect to get somewhere with no skills, then go back to COD.

It all boils down to how skilled you are. And you gain skill and improve by playing.

Let me paint you a picture:

Most people complain about others they know nothing about, and whine like 8 year olds, for fear their broken toy might get taken away.

We have people here who own both clan, and IS mechs (myself included. Hell, I preordered wave 1 ASAP), and we're saying something is funky.

I love my cheetah, but you can't tell me that a 30 ton light mech with more health, and armor than any 35 tonner out there, carrying heavy firepower, plus ECM, plus JJs, and doesn't die from single ST loss isn't a problem.

It decided to be the firestarter, and then became better. Which in-game terms means it's a worse problem than the firestarter, and the firestarter is still a problem.

This is coming from a guy that doesn't have access to the 4th varaint, which can immediately elevate the cheetah to the position of single highest damaging alpha on a light mech.

[Shadey99]

IraqiWalker, on 13 August 2015 - 11:00 AM, said:

It decided to be the firestarter, and then became better. Which in-game terms means it's a worse problem than the firestarter, and the firestarter is still a problem.

This is coming from a guy that doesn't have access to the 4th varaint, which can immediately elevate the cheetah to the position of single highest damaging alpha on a light mech.

I don't own the fourth variant either, however... After doing ACHs I went and did Ice Ferrets and the two play very much alike (up to 5 SPLs and the ability to carry missiles with the same movement speed). The IF is 15 tons heavier, but only slightly larger with very very similar 'pod space' and tonnage to use because of the engine. The biggest 'lack' is jump jets on the IF. Both are incredibly durable for their weight class... My IF has lived at 16% while my BJs, even with standard engines, never get anywhere close to that.

Anyways... From a purely stats stand point... The ACH is very good for it's tonnage. Slightly better than Adders and Ravens, while about equal to Locusts and Commandos (again 'for their tonnage'). However their influence on a match is very high. Again this rivals the Adder, the FS9-A (specifically), the RVN-2X (meta 3LL build) and even the BJ-1X.

By pure stats it doesn't seem that far off from what is obviously one of the perfect storms of mechs (JJs, sufficient speed, high firepower, small size, agile, durable). All previous clan mechs had the main issue of being 'slow' for a MWO perspective. If we were forced to run stock IS mechs than those would seem better than they are, however we aren't and so our entire perspective is skewed. I don't think the ACH is 'unbeatable'. Heck I get one shot even fairly often in mine from being in the wrong place at the wrong time. It's always that other guy who never seems to die that alters our perspective on the whoel matter.

Edited by Shadey99, 13 August 2015 - 02:32 PM.

[Void Angel]

Balvier, on 26 July 2015 - 06:07 AM, said:

Streaks work well, Tag/Narc to counter ecm, chain fire your beams and sweep legs.
[emphasis added]

The only reason I had to look at your poster icon was to find out which Clan you were from. =)

MechregSurn, on 30 July 2015 - 09:16 PM, said:

Once again it is superior piloting vs OP clan mechs. The inner sphere doesnt have streak builds as a counter, thus the new clan lights will be unstoppable in cw.

Nor can Inner Sphere 'mechs in general mount the sheer volume of laser fire needed to leg lights at long range. Gauss and other autocannons can be problematic due to range and time the target spends out of cover, so the Arctic Cheetah has the potential to be a real balance problem once it hits c-bills and more people adopt it.

However, it remains to be seen just how much of an issue a Clan light rush will be given the... dampening effect that the new armored boxes have on that tactic. I've heard people say light rushing is dead - and I'd be just as happy if it were true.

Edited by Void Angel, 13 August 2015 - 04:53 PM.

[Shadey99]

Void Angel, on 13 August 2015 - 04:31 PM, said:

However, it remains to be seen just how much of an issue a Clan light rush will be given the... dampening effect that the new armored boxes have on that tactic. I've heard people say light rushing is dead - and I'd be just as happy if it were true.

I've seen Cheetahs used as a single wave in CW. Multiple times now. Like most (good unit) CW light waves, it's less about silly things like the taking down gens and more about swarming enemy targets and causing as much sheer damage as possible. The idea is to trade light tonnage for as many assaults and heavies as possible. Used correctly a light wave will cripple the enemy much more than it does the force that employs them.

The Cheetah does that rather well, the IS usually fields the Huginn and Firestarter in the same role.

[Void Angel]

Uh-huh, which is why it can be problematic. The generator rush was silly, and I'll be happy if it's dead forever. People used to defend it with stuff like, "it's objective-based and tactical! It makes it interesting, instead of just being big stompy robots killing each other. You just don't like tactical depth!" In reality, it was a one-dimensional tactic designed to exploit weaknesses in map design in order to avoid having to worry about silly things like tactics and combat. Made the game boring, but I digress...

[IraqiWalker]

Shadey99, on 13 August 2015 - 02:27 PM, said:

I don't own the fourth variant either, however... After doing ACHs I went and did Ice Ferrets and the two play very much alike (up to 5 SPLs and the ability to carry missiles with the same movement speed). The IF is 15 tons heavier, but only slightly larger with very very similar 'pod space' and tonnage to use because of the engine. The biggest 'lack' is jump jets on the IF. Both are incredibly durable for their weight class... My IF has lived at 16% while my BJs, even with standard engines, never get anywhere close to that.

Anyways... From a purely stats stand point... The ACH is very good for it's tonnage. Slightly better than Adders and Ravens, while about equal to Locusts and Commandos (again 'for their tonnage'). However their influence on a match is very high. Again this rivals the Adder, the FS9-A (specifically), the RVN-2X (meta 3LL build) and even the BJ-1X.

By pure stats it doesn't seem that far off from what is obviously one of the perfect storms of mechs (JJs, sufficient speed, high firepower, small size, agile, durable). All previous clan mechs had the main issue of being 'slow' for a MWO perspective. If we were forced to run stock IS mechs than those would seem better than they are, however we aren't and so our entire perspective is skewed. I don't think the ACH is 'unbeatable'. Heck I get one shot even fairly often in mine from being in the wrong place at the wrong time. It's always that other guy who never seems to die that alters our perspective on the whoel matter.

I don't think it's unbeatable, nor did I mean t imply that. I was just saying that if people are complaining about the Firestarter, the ACH is even worse.

[Shadey99]

IraqiWalker, on 13 August 2015 - 09:47 PM, said:

I don't think it's unbeatable, nor did I mean t imply that. I was just saying that if people are complaining about the Firestarter, the ACH is even worse.

I didn't mean you specifically said they were 'unbeatable', but some of the people in this thread seem to have that sort of impression... Before the FS was the Spider... and oh how everyone moaned about the Spider... Then came the FS and few mention the Spider anymore since that mech was always a bit under powered. Now the FS itself has been (arguably) topped by the ACH and oh how the people whine... Yet... Every single time it's a small relatively fast humanoid mech.

Either PGI has just failed even after every look they've taken at this style of mech all the way back from 'open beta'... Or... People just don't seem to be able to aim. They need the relatively larger noses of the small non-humanoid mechs to seem to shoot them. Even with this being PGI I think the second makes more sense.

That's not to say hit detection doesn't have an issue in MWO... It does. I know that my ping is highly variable. I've been playing bits of World of Warships and they even have a nice 'lag' meter that detects packet loss (or at least dropped packets). And with my unstable connection that light blinks like it's going out of style. Yet that game seems to handle it ok and I don't get much warping or other lag issues unless I have real issues (a ping going over 400ms for instance). MWO however doesn't handle erratic internet connections at all well and it's not often I 'win' a contest with someone else when connection is the deciding factor. Heck just a week ago I was in a group queue game and was the last one alive versus two last enemies... I lured out the one and in a light mech moved to engage him... and promptly warped across the intervening 400m of space between us and right up into his face. Well you can guess how that went for me. I think a lot of this is that people cannot see how unstable their connections really are and so when they see all these shots 'miss' they blame the mech and not MWO, their ISP, or even PGI.

Anyways... I think the ACH is a highly competitive light mech. That's a good thing. We should want light mechs to be strong contenders and hold their own. Especially since they make up 3 of every 12 mechs outside of CW. I just get annoyed with what feels like endless paranoia about humanoid light mechs...

[MechWarrior3671771]

" They aren't quite OP. A firestarter-A can still hold its own."

Comparing one buggy mech to another buggy mech doesn't make either okay.

Neither one takes damage properly.

[IraqiWalker]

Shadey99, on 13 August 2015 - 11:36 PM, said:

Anyways... I think the ACH is a highly competitive light mech. That's a good thing.

Yes, if it didn't come from bugs, and overdone quirks. The cheetah did not need the structure, and armor quirks it currently has. I can even stand for the overdone quirks, but if a mech is to be competitive, it should be because of a function of the mech, not buggy hit reg.

[B0oN]

Hey guys, relax your jets ... stop the maths and discussing, we could only ever decide on following for the time being :

Now we have mechs in "quantum superpositions" on both sides of the fence ... that actually IS some "kind" of balance, although not really the kind we´d like to have ^^

Both, the ACH and the FS are broken in the same way, so either fix them together and bring them to the same level or just plain leave as is .