264 replies to this topic

[xe N on]

Yellonet, on 27 July 2015 - 03:17 AM, said:

All right guys, thank you, there are some good pointers among the expected hate.
Apparently there's still some things to talk about when it comes to LRM.
And obviously I'm new to the game but I'll play on and try to get better...

Times will changes. Don't waste your time becoming good with missiles. In my PUG games, when I see a missile boat, I see a wasted team slot that could be filled more usefully, even with a locust.

You will find out that in higher ELO regions, people tend to play either peek-a-boo or pushing the enemy to a range at which missiles other then SSRMs and SRMs are no thread.

Optimally, you don't want move any meter without cover. Not because of missiles. Because of 40-50 laser Alphas at 450+ m or dual gauss builds. You need to utilize cover heavily, or you will be shot down in no time. If you don't learn to avoid missiles by moving from cover to cover to break enemy line of sight, you won't survive the first engagement in higher ELO regions.

Missiles therefore are a good training instrument. Missiles have a travel time that other weapons like lasers or gauss don't have. So, you have time to react. With enemies using laser or gauss you won't have this luxury.

Edited by xe N on, 27 July 2015 - 10:15 AM.

[Top Leliel]

There are more LRMs than usual these days, it's true. But there are enough mechs running around with (overpowered) ECM to counteract it. I have an LRM Catapult and it is actually pretty hard to play in the current meta, due to ECM being so common. The strategy is popular, but it isn't a good one without lights with tag, or counter-ecm of some sort, to get locks for you.

Worst case scenario, take a mech with ECM, or one that can pack multiple AMS like a Grasshopper or Kit Fox. Grab some short range weapons and radar deprivation and hunt the LRM boaters until they ragequit and play other mechs.

[MeiSooHaityu]

"YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LRMS!!!"

[Wintersdark]

xe N on, on 27 July 2015 - 10:14 AM, said:

Times will changes. Don't waste your time becoming good with missiles. In my PUG games, when I see a missile boat, I see a wasted team slot that could be filled more usefully, even with a locust.

There are exceptions - some players, in specific mechs, can be dangerous - but as a rule of thumb yes, LRM boats are a waste of a slot.

I can't say I've ever felt a team slot was wasted to Novakaine in one of his LRM boats, for example

But the reality is, it's extremely hard to use LRM's to any effectiveness outside of raw rookie Elo. Even at average-experienced-pilot levels, LRM's are woefully ineffective for 99% of players.

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You will find out that in higher ELO regions, people tend to play either peek-a-boo or pushing the enemy to a range at which missiles other then SSRMs and SRMs are no thread.

Optimally, you don't want move any meter without cover. Not because of missiles. Because of 40-50 laser Alphas at 450+ m or dual gauss builds. You need to utilize cover heavily, or you will be shot down in no time. If you don't learn to avoid missiles by moving from cover to cover to break enemy line of sight, you won't survive the first engagement in higher ELO regions.

This is one of those things that kind of gets me. People complain about having to use cover to negate LRM's, but you need to use cover to not just die instantly. If you're in the open, and not part of a cohesive aggressive push, you're dead way faster to lasers/gauss than you ever will be to LRM's.

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Missiles therefore are a good training instrument. Missiles have a travel time that other weapons like lasers or gauss don't have. So, you have time to react. With enemies using laser or gauss you won't have this luxury.

Indeed. Missiles teach you - with room to react - how to move around maps, how not to stand in the open, how to be aware of the directions you can be attacked from, spotted from.

Always remember: if someone can TAG spot you for LRM's, they could be hammering you with PPC's, Gauss, autocannon rounds, lasers... Be thankful that they chose a weapon that doesn't do any damage, and allows someone else firing a grossly inefficient weapon with a REALLY long travel time AND a warning to be able to fire at you. It'd be much worse if they were just popping you with gauss rounds.

[Throat Punch]

xe N on, on 27 July 2015 - 10:14 AM, said:

Times will changes. Don't waste your time becoming good with missiles. In my PUG games, when I see a missile boat, I see a wasted team slot that could be filled more usefully, even with a locust.

A good LRM player can soften the enemy and keep them under cover preventing them from pushing up so the rest of the team can go in and play clean up.

[CrayonDragon]

Well, lets recap shall we?
- Currently there is an overwhelming amount of ECM-capable 'Mechs.
- AMS now has 2000 rounds pr box.
- Multiple 'Mechs can carry x2 AMS.
- AMS module allows for even more rapid firing.
- Cover is present in just about every map.
- I noticed that tons of people carry AMS.
- Radar Deprivation makes it virtually impossible to lock a 'Mech equipped with that module.
- LRM has to travel from destination A to B.
- Any kind of obstruction from above will destroy the missiles in flight.
- LRMs deal such significantly less damage compared to - every weapon
- The launcher requires a significant amount of ammo to use effectively. (Which turns the host 'Mech into a walking time-bomb)
- A 3 tons module+3 tons of ammo for said launcher ( NARC) is needed to turn LRMS into any kind of useful weapon.
- TAG is also needed for same reasons.
- A blatant warning is thrown directly into your face, giving you AMPLE time to react to the threat.
- Clan LRM has a continuous-launch system, meaning you don't have to face the blunt of the missiles in one go. Compared to the IS-LRM which hits you with the entire volley in one go.
-LRM missiles spread their damage across your entire 'Mech.
- Shoot down the UAV and the rains will stop.

I cannot fathom how much of an idiot you must be to claim that LRMS are overpowered.
If you deicide to stroll out in the open and BLINDLY STARE AT THE MISSILES AS THEY HIT YOUR FACE. Then you deserve to get killed, nuf said.

*I fixed it.

Edited by CrayonDragon, 27 July 2015 - 11:05 AM.

[Throat Punch]

Crayondragon, on 27 July 2015 - 10:52 AM, said:

I cannot phantom...<snip>

It's spooky how much I cannot phantom either. You'd have a ghost of a chance to phantom as much as I do.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mors Draco, on 27 July 2015 - 10:56 AM, said:

It's spooky how much I cannot phantom either. You'd have a ghost of a chance to phantom as much as I do.

Your Puns have a Specter of a chance of breaking our Spirit.

[Shae Starfyre]

Joseph Mallan, on 27 July 2015 - 09:35 AM, said:

just answer the actual question instead of proving you are a grammar freak!

What was the question?

In all seriousness, these and other posts like them have been around forever in every game that had a forum.

The real issue is having a myopic perspective.

Consider this:

If you were in this universe that MWO is based on, and a mission came up that you had to put together a group of individuals and equipment to achieve an objective with the technology described in the books and manuals, what would that team composition be, and what would you have based it on?

I understand that this is a video game; however, because of it being loosely connected to the genre in question, regardless if many understand it, the question is still broadly thoughtful.

it is unfortunate that the public queue cannot give us the sense of delving into answering this question; but, just suppose that the balance and experiences are connected to answering this fundamental question.

This is why I tend not to have an opinion on balance or anything else for that matter because it is largely a waste of time.

I build to suit my tastes, and play the best I can. I try and anticipate my team and try and get as much information as quickly as possible about my team composition and the enemy to engage thoughtfully.

After a few years of playing, and thousands of drops in the public queue, I can still not tell you the best way to balance; there are just way too many unknowns that cannot be quantified.

If this was a static game with two Mechs with medium lasers standing still firing on each other, we might have a discussion; other than that, I am not going to participate in any discussions about what happened in a few matches today that got my booty sore. I guarantee, it will be different a hundred drops from now; let alone the next day.

Edited by Aphoticus, 27 July 2015 - 11:21 AM.

[Dino Might]

xe N on, on 27 July 2015 - 10:14 AM, said:

Times will changes. Don't waste your time becoming good with missiles. In my PUG games, when I see a missile boat, I see a wasted team slot that could be filled more usefully, even with a locust.

Be fair. Anytime you see any other enemy mech on the field, you see a wasted team slot that could be filled more usefully with a Locust.

[Mavairo]

Yellonet, on 26 July 2015 - 04:05 PM, said:

Ok, there's some good tips here, but tbh it all seems to much meta, or gamey, learn the maps, let other players take the hits and grind grind grind to get radar deprevation... If these are really the only viable ways to not get killed my LRM's, it's pretty pathetic.
Basically, what I'm saying (and you are saying) is that LRM's are so easy to use that there are no real player skill that you can have to defeat them but you have to resort to gamey stuff like unlocking tech and using knowledge of how the stupidly small maps are set up.... wow...

You're dyi

Yellonet, on 26 July 2015 - 04:05 PM, said:

Ok, there's some good tips here, but tbh it all seems to much meta, or gamey, learn the maps, let other players take the hits and grind grind grind to get radar deprevation... If these are really the only viable ways to not get killed my LRM's, it's pretty pathetic.
Basically, what I'm saying (and you are saying) is that LRM's are so easy to use that there are no real player skill that you can have to defeat them but you have to resort to gamey stuff like unlocking tech and using knowledge of how the stupidly small maps are set up.... wow...

You're doing the COD equivalent to dying to Noob Tubes.
Sadly, that's about the only people that die to LRMs, other than terribads who should have uninstalled a long time ago rather than continue to whine.

Even in an Atlas RS I don't even fear the LRM. Because, once you climb up out of the ELO basement, where LRMS stop being prevalent? You'll find you die far faster to enemy focus fire, from direct fire weapons than you ever did LRMs.

You don't even need Radar Derp, or ECM. Or even to carry AMS (though I do recommend you carry it on all of your mechs, above the medium weight category ((Dragon aside))).

If a piece of terrain looks taller than your mech? It's probably safe to use it as cover, in your forward advance.
Notice, I said forward advance. not cower behind. You move from cover to cover until you can get yourself into an advantageous position and wipe your enemy off the board in this game.

Cowardice gets you killed in this, and every other pvp game for that matter. Cautious advancing is a strategy.
Cowering in a corner, isn't one. And neither is a blind reckless charge into the enemy.

PVP is a balance of aggression and prudence.

Dying to LRM, usually demonstrates a complete failure in achieving a balance, either due to cowardice, or over aggression. If you are an assault mech, demonstrating aggression will inspire your pugmates to follow you 9/10 times. Even inspite of the rain.

If my 60kph Atlas's don't even need the Derp, then whatever you are piloting doesn't either.

Derp, is still a critical module, even once you are out of the ELO basement, because it allows you to deny the enemy intelligence as to your exact position once you slip behind cover. Remember my statement about moving to cover? If you do it right, your enemy only gets glimpses of you now and then, until you are ready to engage in battle. If you do this exceptionally well, you can core someone before they even realize your there.

Look out for UAVs, UAV is honestly the best consumable in this game, bar none. Nothing else gives you such an immediate and detailed view of the battlefield.

AMS is wickedly effective once it stacks. It stacks better than LRMS do in effectiveness. 2 mechs with 2 AMS each, especially god forbid if they have Overload module onboard their mechs, are damn near invulnerable to LRMs. 4 mechs with 1 ams? same effect, only better as the umbrella of AMS cover is larger given the natural spread people move in.

Mechs with AMS AND Derp? The LRM guys might as well pack up and go home.

[xXBagheeraXx]

RedDevil, on 26 July 2015 - 03:04 PM, said:

See what I mean? Everyone will pile on to you not matter how reasonable an argument you make for changing ECM in exchange for making LRMs LoS. The best arguments are they'll say you're just bad if you get hit by LRM's.

Because YOU ARE...lol

I consider myself a very good LRM supporter and I cant even rock the dammed things anymore. Too much radar derp or ECM to ever get locks.

[Screech]

Only time I really hate LRMs is when all the assaults on my team are boating them.

[Jon Gotham]

Mors Draco, on 26 July 2015 - 03:08 PM, said:

LRM's are feast or famine. If you are getting killed strictly by LRM's then YOU are doing something terribly wrong. It's the truth. You may not like it, but there it is.

It's the truth..in your opinion.

Feast or famine is wether you get fingered by the lrmers or not. If you do and you are not within grasp of the exact type of cover needed say your prayers, it on occasion can be a staggering giga volley coming at you which you can only twist to spread but cannot avoid if you are away from the exact type of cover required.
People bleat use cover, but you need a specific type of cover to be "safe" then at some point you have to move then.....don't let that finger fall on you....
I'd say 7/10 games are ok but when you get those 3/10 lrmfests the gameplay is just...ugh...

[xXBagheeraXx]

kamiko kross, on 27 July 2015 - 11:19 AM, said:

It's the truth..in your opinion.

Feast or famine is wether you get fingered by the lrmers or not. If you do and you are not within grasp of the exact type of cover needed say your prayers, it on occasion can be a staggering giga volley coming at you which you can only twist to spread but cannot avoid if you are away from the exact type of cover required.
People bleat use cover, but you need a specific type of cover to be "safe" then at some point you have to move then.....don't let that finger fall on you....
I'd say 7/10 games are ok but when you get those 3/10 lrmfests the gameplay is just...ugh...

NO, its feast or famine depending on how much ECM your enemy team has and the map...enemy has no ecm and its Caldera? FEAST. More than 2 or 3 ECM? GG, was close. I'd be suprised if you get a full locked salvo off. You take an LRM support mech, you throw skill and your build out the window, your damage and contribution will be determined by matchmaker.

[Weeny Machine]

kamiko kross, on 27 July 2015 - 11:19 AM, said:

It's the truth..in your opinion.

Feast or famine is wether you get fingered by the lrmers or not. If you do and you are not within grasp of the exact type of cover needed say your prayers, it on occasion can be a staggering giga volley coming at you which you can only twist to spread but cannot avoid if you are away from the exact type of cover required.
People bleat use cover, but you need a specific type of cover to be "safe" then at some point you have to move then.....don't let that finger fall on you....
I'd say 7/10 games are ok but when you get those 3/10 lrmfests the gameplay is just...ugh...

Not only that...people forget that it is not just the damage. Missiles are supression weapons and their slow flight is in this case a blessing because people sit longer behind their cover until the swarm hist.

What these oh-so-pro guys who bleat "lrms never kill me. You suck lolol" forget is - when they hunker down smiling in their cover, the others of their team can be ganged on by the enemy. Or the enemy can come for them because they are pinned.

It is not about killing...but hey, what doesn't directly kill me is worthless, right?

[Richter Kerensky]

xXBagheeraXx, on 27 July 2015 - 11:27 AM, said:

NO, its feast or famine depending on how much ECM your enemy team has and the map...enemy has no ecm and its Caldera? FEAST. More than 2 or 3 ECM? GG, was close. I'd be suprised if you get a full locked salvo off. You take an LRM support mech, you throw skill and your build out the window, your damage and contribution will be determined by matchmaker.

ECM is not required to defeat LRMs.

[Mavairo]

Bush Hopper, on 27 July 2015 - 11:29 AM, said:

Not only that...people forget that it is not just the damage. Missiles are supression weapons and their slow flight is in this case a blessing because people sit longer behind their cover until the swarm hist.

What these oh-so-pro guys who bleat "lrms never kill me. You suck lolol" forget is - when they hunker down smiling in their cover, the others of their team can be ganged on by the enemy. Or the enemy can come for them because they are pinned.

It is not about killing...but hey, what doesn't directly kill me is worthless, right?

Who hunkers? I see LRMs and I chuckle, and keep moving. 2 minutes later there's an LRM pilot dying horrendously to gunfire to his rear CT, or better yet if he's IS his rear ST and out goes his XL engine.

The better than average players, see LRMs, and continue in the routes they were going to anyway, and engage, or alter course slightly, blow the LRMs off the map with gunfire, and move on.

The Real Pros, don't even see LRMs because they're that terrible, unless it's a dead hour and there aren't enough players in their ELO brackets.

Edited by Mavairo, 27 July 2015 - 11:36 AM.

[Weeny Machine]

Mavairo, on 27 July 2015 - 11:36 AM, said:

Who hunkers? I see LRMs and I chuckle, and keep moving. 2 minutes later there's an LRM pilot dying horrendously to gunfire to his rear CT, or better yet if he's IS his rear ST and out goes his XL engine.

The better than average players, see LRMs, and continue in the routes they were going to anyway, and engage, or alter course slightly, blow the LRMs off the map with gunfire, and move on.

The Real Pros, don't even see LRMs because they're that terrible, unless it's a dead hour and there aren't enough players in their ELO brackets.

Weird I saw those prose die to LRMs. But hey... no pro ever dies to LRM, right?

Point is: BS, sorry

[Jman5]

It's always interesting how polarizing LRMs are in this community. How come we never have heated discussions about Small lasers?