221 replies to this topic

[Agent 0 Fortune]

The simple truth is both non-participation and team treason can be abused, however unless it is abused, you will not be hearing from MWO support. Non-participation griefers simply tring to intimidate your into not reporting their location because they know you have all the power, and can put an end to their trolling.

Personally I have never had the need to reported a player for giving me the location of a powered down enemy. Additionally I encourage the eleven other players on my team to report players who intentionally grief through non--participation..So please do not be discouraged by bullies who try to coerce you to being unwitting accomplices in their trollish behavior.

[MoonUnitBeta]

Mystere, on 28 July 2015 - 04:06 PM, said:

• preserving K/D
  
• forcing the enemy to earn the kill

One problem is that "forcing the enemy to earn the kill" kind of persists from the start of the game... The only difference is how you are perceiving the outcome. At the start of the match it's anyone's game, at the end of the match it starts to become more obvious. However, that doesn't diminish the players right to play it out.


That is of course prefaced with the assumption that the player is active. We must also be mindful that playing alone is vastly more difficult than playing with others. Disengaging is not nearly as easy and so you'll always want to fight at a distance, avoid getting cornered, and/or be sneaky to minimize the amount of incoming damage or attention. That could quickly be interpreted incorrectly for preserving K/D, so that is why we must first give the player the benefit of the doubt. Should you call him out prematurely or incorrectly, then that could be considered a treasonous act.

When talking about preserving K/D, their behavior is obviously radically different, and in most cases power down and hide, or are simply avoiding the enemy all together, without any regard to playing in a strategic manor. It largely boils down to intention, and while that's a grey area difficult to define, we should always give the player the benefit of the doubt. But, if you are in doubt, report him and don't involve yourself in acts that would otherwise compromise your own team.

I think that's pretty simple, but if you want a black/white definition then they are going to have to define a lot of variables. In the same breath, we cannot let the different valid ways of how people play the game get caught in between.

Edited by MoonUnitBeta, 28 July 2015 - 04:43 PM.

[GeistHrafn]

ScarecrowES, on 28 July 2015 - 03:25 PM, said:

The quote, as you've just shown, is vague. Calling out a teammate when it has no effect on the game cannot, thus, be treasonous by definition, as it produces no negative effect for any of the 12 players on your team. In fact, for the 11 players on your team who have already accepted the loss, and the 12 winning players being prevented from moving on with their win... or to be said another way, for the other 23 players in the match... the BENEFIT of such actions is immeasureable to all. Like the quote says... TREASONOUS provision of info is forbidden. Nothing states that providing information in general, or information that is beneficial to the general poplation of the match, including your own team, is forbidden.

Giving a players location to the enemy is considered treasonous. Period. Your apparent misunderstanding of this rule does not exempt you from being reported if you violate it.

[9thDeathscream]

I was in this match.

Kitty was well within the rules to run. He fought in the battle and was active all match.

The people in the wrong are the team mates who A reported his position. B Heckled him for what he was doing

I suggest that you read the following.

Non-Participation Abuse
If a player has joined a match, they must have launched the game with intent to play. Players who are not moving, or are otherwise not participating in the spirit of the game, fall under this category. While we all understand the call of nature: Repeated abuse of this behaviour, similarly to 'Mech Suicide and Team Killing, results in an unfair advantage for the enemy teams, and is thus not considered acceptable use. Please keep in mind that idling on your cap point without armour or moving does not constitute a form of tactical "Base Defense".

Team Treason
Treasonous provision of information to enemy combatants, also known as "bird-doging" is forbidden. This involves a player using the in-game chat to provide the enemy team with the locations of their own team mates. While we appreciate that some players may wish to have a round end early by calling out the location of an AFK team-mate, the risk that this could be used against an active participant of the match to deny them the use of cover and movement makes this a form of a griefing. You may declare a teammate AFK but not their coordinates or position.

Kitty did not fall under non participation.

Edited by Akulla1980, 28 July 2015 - 04:38 PM.

[Nightmare1]

When will people get over this all ready?

[9thDeathscream]

Look I feel that running away is a cowards move. But that's me. Opinions will vary on this.

But Kitty did not do anything wrong within the game rules!

[GRiPSViGiL]

If you heckle me and or try to dictate what I do I have and always will drag the game out on you.

I shouldn't need to tell any of my teammates my intentions, reasons, or thoughts of how I will spend my remaining time of the match. If I have 6 min's left and I decide I am gonna shutdown for a min or so to see if I can set an ambush or happen to mislead the enemy pursuit I sure will. Problem is I will be reported before I have a chance to fully power down. I don't owe any explanation or reasoning behind how I want to use the remainder of the 15 minutes after the initial engagement.

I decide what I do in game not you.

[bad arcade kitty]

Akulla1980, on 28 July 2015 - 04:41 PM, said:

Look I feel that running away is a cowards move. But that's me. Opinions will vary on this.

thank you for the support :3

i wasn't shut down... i just wanted a chance to kill somebody, instead of running out of bounds or suiciding to the whole flock, i absolutely dislike that kind of wasting your life/mech, in conquest i always ask our last alive to survive even when we cannot win by cap

yeah, it was a slim chance with 2 ssrm-6 and badly damaged... but i had it, i killed people in similarly damaged crow before, my plan was to circle the map and possibly to meet a lone scout

GRiPSViGiL, on 28 July 2015 - 04:41 PM, said:

If you heckle me and or try to dictate what I do I have and always will drag the game out on you.

I shouldn't need to tell any of my teammates my intentions, reasons, or thoughts of how I will spend my remaining time of the match. If I have 6 min's left and I decide I am gonna shutdown for a min or so to see if I can set an ambush or happen to mislead the enemy pursuit I sure will. Problem is I will be reported before I have a chance to fully power down. I don't owe any explanation or reasoning behind how I want to use the remainder of the 15 minutes after the initial engagement.

I decide what I do in game not you.

this

Edited by bad arcade kitty, 28 July 2015 - 04:50 PM.

[MoonUnitBeta]

Akulla1980, on 28 July 2015 - 04:41 PM, said:

Look I feel that running away is a cowards move. But that's me. Opinions will vary on this.

But Kitty did not do anything wrong within the game rules!

I agree, and there's key ways to distinguish whether or not it's a valid attempt at trying make the most out of the situation, or if it's a cowardly move intended on dragging out the match for preservation purposes.

If they're against heavier mechs, it's easy to create a gap (on some maps), and set them up so that you can have first strike/hit & run. However, cowards don't really concern themselves of that. They purposefully hold fire to avoid revealing their position, and they're only concerned about sustaining the least amounts of hits without contributing towards the resolution of the match.

That of course varies between map to map as some have more or less cover than others, but the principle is the same.

By the way, I'm making no accusations, just trying to help the thread come to an understanding.

Edited by MoonUnitBeta, 28 July 2015 - 04:54 PM.

[Mystere]

ScarecrowES, on 28 July 2015 - 01:51 PM, said:

Ultimately, the language for non-participation in clear, and treason is vague.

The the non-participation rule states clearly that any refusal to participate in a match within the spirit of the game is a violation. Straight up, thats the rule. Team treason give the implication that treason is considered when the act against one's team has negative impact on team or player performance. Thus, it cannot be considered treason the act has a result that was going to happen anyway. The OP was going to lose the match. There was no possibility he could win it. If he faced the enemy directly, he WOULD die. Both results are guaranteed. No treason can thus occur.

You have it upside down, totally.

[Mystere]

MoonUnitBeta, on 28 July 2015 - 04:23 PM, said:

When talking about preserving K/D, their behavior is obviously radically different, and in most cases power down and hide, or are simply avoiding the enemy all together, without any regard to playing in a strategic manor. It largely boils down to intention, and while that's a grey area difficult to define, we should always give the player the benefit of the doubt. But, if you are in doubt, report him and don't involve yourself in acts that would otherwise compromise your own team.

And that is the only allowable action. But team treason never was and never will be.

[Johnny Z]

All players are not considered dead when their mechs are destroyed. They are considered ejected.

When they finally add eject, if a player doesnt eject in time their chat should be turned off.

SIM FTW.

About players giving others position away they should just disable the cross team chat? To much for a few players who dont know the meaning of sportsmanship?

Edited by Johnny Z, 28 July 2015 - 10:44 PM.

[Xetelian]

bad arcade kitty, on 28 July 2015 - 11:34 AM, said:

till the end of the game when they can say gg, it serves no purpose at all and is highly abusable

here is a recent game of mine, i was moving in a wide circle hoping to find some enemy and got my position repeatedly reported while another jerk asked what was wrong with me. with me, damn!

p.s. imo name and shame policy shouldn't force me painting the names on screenshots, not like it's defamation or something, it's just screenshots, but w/e, i abide

You're like, not in l6, so why you mad bro?

[InspectorG]

DAYLEET, on 28 July 2015 - 01:43 PM, said:

I think everyone should try to avoid combat as much as possible. Maybe then pgi will add a map ping to the last player wasting everyons time.

Rabbit Run is a new objective?

[MauttyKoray]

Way back PGI put it this way:

When you click to launch a game, you are dedicating 15 minutes of your time to a match. Unless a person is afk, shut down, hiding, or purposely running away from the enemy, the match is still in progress and any attempt to report a player's position who is still playing correctly is technically violating the ToS agreement.

From what OP said they were still actively attempting to fight people, so giving away his position is a violation of ToS. OP has the right to submit the screenshot to PGI through support about the player who was reporting their position.

I've personally seen guys come back from a 1 on 4 and win the game. Surprising stuff happens and these disrespectful ******** do not belong in the community. Obviously coming back from a 1 on 10 is stretching that example, but its not within your right to ruin someone else's game because you're impatient.

You have the option to exit game and relaunch in a different mech while waiting for that match to end.

Edited by MauttyKoray, 28 July 2015 - 05:55 PM.

[MoonUnitBeta]

Mystere, on 28 July 2015 - 05:27 PM, said:

And that is the only allowable action. But team treason never was and never will be.

Yes, and? I thought I made both of those points clear. Unless I'm not understanding you correctly?

Reporting is the only allowable action on either side of the spectrum. Why did you say "but" after that?

[Overlord Neb]

Never. Because it''s a terrible idea.

[Kilo 40]

Shad0wsFury, on 28 July 2015 - 12:12 PM, said:

Sorry you don't like it. I happen to find the opposite selfish: Wasting 23 people's time to me seems more selfish than giving away the position of a player who, IMO, selfishly refuses to die to pad their own stats.

no one is wasting anyone's time. don't like that a player is "refusing to die"? then disconnect.

[bad arcade kitty]

Ghazzy, on 28 July 2015 - 06:24 PM, said:

Never. Because it''s a terrible idea.

why? speaking with enemies when you are dead isn't somehow important to the game while forbidding it can prevent quite an annoying rule violation

you can greet enemies at the beginning when you are alive, you can tease enemies when you are alive and you can say gg when the game ends, what do you need else

or pgi should target the problem from the opposite direction and give the last player a possibility to get a free ticket out, skirmish is especially poorly designed, in conquest/assault you can end the game early without seeking the last enemy while in skirmish you cannot

anyway their 'clarification' will not be enough, they need to change something in the mechanics, otherwise people will still refuse to suicide against enemies and will drag the game hoping either to overwhelm a lone enemy or to simply survive and other people will betray them regardless of being reported

[Light-Speed]

I feel like there are special cases, like when you have no chance of winning if you engage at the moment, you can always isolate opponents by running away.
Then you turn around and fire in the face of the closest one and hope the rest aren't really close.

Shutting down can also allow you to power up and kill some enemies from behind after they pass.

So unless you are absolutely sure that the last guy is really doing nothing, please don't report his/her position.

I oppose shutting down the "all chat" though. If you know how to lie and you know the map well, providing false information can be a great contribution. Plus I'll like to talk to others on topics such as a glorious fight in that match or defending my honor or the honor of someone I support.