92 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

Mirkk Defwode, on 28 July 2015 - 03:48 PM, said:

Win10 is free through the microsoft Update program for all Vista, Win7 and Win8 users.

http://www.microsoft...dows-10-upgrade

Enjoy.

Again, you're not even reading into what my situation is.

I guess I have to spell things out for people that don't understand "the conditions of which you DO NOT qualify".

Yeonne Greene, on 28 July 2015 - 03:50 PM, said:

Then say that instead of throwing out obviously bull or ill-considered justifications for your choice of action. Jeebus. You made it sound as if you didn't want to spend the money to do it or that you wanted to wait for it to get good rather than simply not liking the product enough to change (which is totally fine).

I think you're not reading between the lines properly as to why.

It's one thing to suggest people do something... it's another to force their opinion on someone else. That's a very different issue altogether.

If I don't want to upgrade, it's my business. If I cannot upgrade, that's also my business too. I slot into BOTH categories anyways, so I'm not even sure why that should matter.

Quote

What I suggested was not early adoption, anyway. What I suggested was staking a claim to your copy so that you can adopt it (something you don't do until you actually start using it) when you think it is ready, AKA keeping your options open for the future so you don't have to spend money to reopen a closed door.

But, hey, if you'd rather drop $100 on whatever your next OS will be, that's your call, too and that's okay.

I can't claim a copy. Full stop. Please stop.

[Imperius]

Deathlike, on 28 July 2015 - 03:56 PM, said:

Again, you're not even reading into what my situation is.

I guess I have to spell things out for people that don't understand "the conditions of which you DO NOT qualify".




I think you're not reading between the lines properly as to why.

It's one thing to suggest people do something... it's another to force their opinion on someone else. That's a very different issue altogether.

If I don't want to upgrade, it's my business. If I cannot upgrade, that's also my business too. I slot into BOTH categories anyways, so I'm not even sure why that should matter.




I can't claim a copy. Full stop. Please stop.

False
As of today, here are the official ways to qualify for a free copy of Windows 10:

1. After July 29, 2015 and before July 29, 2016, install Windows 10 on a system running Windows 7 with Service Pack 1 Update installed. You can reserve your free upgrade by clicking the Windows icon at the right side of your task bar and select “reserve your free upgrade.”

2. After July 29, 2015 and before July 29, 2016, install Windows 10 on a system running Windows 8 with the Windows 8.1 Update installed. You can reserve your free upgrade by clicking the Windows icon at the right side of your task bar and select “reserve your free upgrade.”

3. Register with the Windows Insider program, Microsoft’s platform for beta testing and user feedback. Users who have registered with the program and have been beta testing Windows 10 may continue to receive beta-versions of Windows 10, provided that they stay members of the Windows Insider program. This is the path for either adventurous users who feel comfortable with beta versions, or users who have installed Windows 10 Technical Preview on a system that does not have an authentic, genuine license of Windows 7 with Service Pack 1 or Windows 8.1.

4. If you’ve been beta testing Windows 10 as a member of the Windows Insider program, but want to move to from the wild world of betas to the secure world of stable releases, there is a way for you too. You need to be running the Windows 10 beta on a computer with a genuinely obtained license of Windows 7 with Service Pack 1 or Windows 8.1.

Edited by Imperius, 28 July 2015 - 04:09 PM.

[Deathlike]

Imperius, on 28 July 2015 - 04:07 PM, said:

False
As of today, here are the official ways to qualify for a free copy of Windows 10:

1. After July 29, 2015 and before July 29, 2016, install Windows 10 on a system running Windows 7 with Service Pack 1 Update installed. You can reserve your free upgrade by clicking the Windows icon at the right side of your task bar and select “reserve your free upgrade.”

2. After July 29, 2015 and before July 29, 2016, install Windows 10 on a system running Windows 8 with the Windows 8.1 Update installed. You can reserve your free upgrade by clicking the Windows icon at the right side of your task bar and select “reserve your free upgrade.”

3. Register with the Windows Insider program, Microsoft’s platform for beta testing and user feedback. Users who have registered with the program and have been beta testing Windows 10 may continue to receive beta-versions of Windows 10, provided that they stay members of the Windows Insider program. This is the path for either adventurous users who feel comfortable with beta versions, or users who have installed Windows 10 Technical Preview on a system that does not have an authentic, genuine license of Windows 7 with Service Pack 1 or Windows 8.1.

4. If you’ve been beta testing Windows 10 as a member of the Windows Insider program, but want to move to from the wild world of betas to the secure world of stable releases, there is a way for you too. You need to be running the Windows 10 beta on a computer with a genuinely obtained license of Windows 7 with Service Pack 1 or Windows 8.1.

I suggest everyone that keeps hounding me to figure out "what instances" where one doesn't qualify.

I'll just stop answering questions unless you "get it".

[Imperius]

Deathlike, on 28 July 2015 - 04:11 PM, said:

I suggest everyone that keeps hounding me to figure out "what instances" where one doesn't qualify.

I'll just stop answering questions unless you "get it".

I told you I get it that you're by choice not going to be an early adopter. Saying you can't get it though is a lie

[Y E O N N E]

Deathlike, on 28 July 2015 - 03:56 PM, said:

I think you're not reading between the lines properly as to why.

It's one thing to suggest people do something... it's another to force their opinion on someone else. That's a very different issue altogether.

If I don't want to upgrade, it's my business. If I cannot upgrade, that's also my business too. I slot into BOTH categories anyways, so I'm not even sure why that should matter.

Well, it matters when you answer the person who asked you the original question with a bogus reason instead of "because I don't want to" or "because I am unable to." I might ask why, and all you would have had to say was "it's personal" or "I don't want to discuss it" and that's the end. Given what you told that person and what you said in every other subsequent response, though, you made it look like you were just making poorly informed decisions.

I was not trying to force an opinion; all I wanted to do was help because it bothers me when somebody appears to be making a mistake. For my part, I'm not even completely confident in Windows 10 because 8.1 has had the best stability out of any version of Windows I've ever used, but this isn't even about Windows anymore, just your failure to provide lines to read between and then telling people off for failing to do so.

[darkkterror]

Guys, pestering Deathlike about his choices regarding Windows 10 is entirely irrelevant to this discussion. PGI isn't going to decide against DX12 just because Deathlike can't or won't upgrade.

[Mister Blastman]

Imperius, on 28 July 2015 - 03:32 PM, said:

I don't even know how to respond to that level of ignorance. I will just say this if it works in Windows 7 it's supported in 10 (You know that option to run in Win 7/8 mode)

Ignorance? Listen here, smarty-pants, I've been building my own machines for two and a half decades and I've encountered more than my fair share of "issues." I'm too damn old now with a wife and a kid to bother with that kind of horseplay at the moment. My system is incredibly complex with six drives, multiple partitions etc., etc. so excuse me while I tell you to take a hike.

Don't tell me for a minute it won't be problem free. The last time I heard that crap was when someone said upgrading a motherboard was a cinch with Windows 7 with a couple of tricks.

It wasn't. I wasted a whole damn day before I ended up installing it again from scratch.

Ignorance my ass. *knocks some salt off boots* Here, pour that on your food. It'll put some hair on your chest.

Also, some of you clowns around here act like Direct X upgrades are like rubbing a bottle and a genie pops out! This is hilarious. Why don't you call us all up and host a party when you find that fairy.

Edited by Mister Blastman, 28 July 2015 - 04:21 PM.

[Deathlike]

Yeonne Greene, on 28 July 2015 - 04:15 PM, said:

Well, it matters when you answer the person who asked you the original question with a bogus reason instead of "because I don't want to" or "because I am unable to." I might ask why, and all you would have had to say was "it's personal" or "I don't want to discuss it" and that's the end. Given what you told that person and what you said in every other subsequent response, though, you made it look like you were just making poorly informed decisions.

I've been trying to be clear on what I've been saying, so if people want to skim and not read the content of my posts, I can't help you. It's that simple.

Quote

I was not trying to force an opinion; all I wanted to do was help because it bothers me when somebody appears to be making a mistake. For my part, I'm not even completely confident in Windows 10 because 8.1 has had the best stability out of any version of Windows I've ever used, but this isn't even about Windows anymore, just your failure to provide lines to read between and then telling people off for failing to do so.

I'm seriously making an informed decision about this, and I'm fine with what that entails.

If other people refuse to believe that, that's not my problem.

Edited by Deathlike, 28 July 2015 - 04:22 PM.

[Imperius]

I added another video top the original post relevant info.

[pbiggz]

Mister Blastman, on 28 July 2015 - 04:21 PM, said:

Ignorance? Listen here, smarty-pants, I've been building my own machines for two and a half decades and I've encountered more than my fair share of "issues." I'm too damn old now with a wife and a kid to bother with that kind of horseplay at the moment. My system is incredibly complex with six drives, multiple partitions etc., etc. so excuse me while I tell you to take a hike.

Don't tell me for a minute it won't be problem free. The last time I heard that crap was when someone said upgrading a motherboard was a cinch with Windows 7 with a couple of tricks.

It wasn't. I wasted a whole damn day before I ended up installing it again from scratch.

Ignorance my ass. *knocks some salt off boots* Here, pour that on your food. It'll put some hair on your chest.

Also, some of you clowns around here act like Direct X upgrades are like rubbing a bottle and a genie pops out! This is hilarious. Why don't you call us all up and host a party when you find that fairy.

Have you ever actually done any shader programming? honest question, not trying to fight you.

[Imperius]

Mister Blastman, on 28 July 2015 - 04:21 PM, said:

Ignorance? Listen here, smarty-pants, I've been building my own machines for two and a half decades and I've encountered more than my fair share of "issues." I'm too damn old now with a wife and a kid to bother with that kind of horseplay at the moment. My system is incredibly complex with six drives, multiple partitions etc., etc. so excuse me while I tell you to take a hike.

Don't tell me for a minute it won't be problem free. The last time I heard that crap was when someone said upgrading a motherboard was a cinch with Windows 7 with a couple of tricks.

It wasn't. I wasted a whole damn day before I ended up installing it again from scratch.

Ignorance my ass. *knocks some salt off boots* Here, pour that on your food. It'll put some hair on your chest.

Also, some of you clowns around here act like Direct X upgrades are like rubbing a bottle and a genie pops out! This is hilarious. Why don't you call us all up and host a party when you find that fairy.

I have:

Intel I7 4790K 4.6GHz
16GB G.Skill DDR-3 2400MHz
2 GTX 980 SLi Stock
Crucial MX500 960GB SSD (I use for game storage)
Crucial MX100 512GB SSD (Windows 8.1, soon Windows 10 with DX12)
2 Standard 500GB hard drives for Video Capture

I will let you know how many issues I have and I bet you it will be zero

Corsair 750W Gold Rated PSU

Edited by Imperius, 28 July 2015 - 04:29 PM.

[Mister Blastman]

pbiggz, on 28 July 2015 - 04:24 PM, said:

Have you ever actually done any shader programming? honest question, not trying to fight you.

A small bit. I have a tweaked out version of dosbox I'm quite proud of. It accurately emulates a CRT monitor (close enough for now--the madness never stops) and has taken me a long time to perfect.

Am I good at shader programming? Hell no. I write science fiction and gamble professionally for a living. I used to code years ago and grew bored with it. It isn't my thing anymore. I'll leave that for the pros.

Imperius, on 28 July 2015 - 04:28 PM, said:

I have:

Intel I7 4790K 4.6GHz
16GB G.Skill DDR-3 2400MHz
2 GTX 980 SLi Stock
Crucial MX500 960GB SSD (I use for game storage)
Crucial MX100 512GB SSD (Windows 8.1, soon Windows 10 with DX12)
2 Standard 500GB hard drives for Video Capture

I will let you know how many issues I have and I bet you it will be zero

Corsair 750W Gold Rated PSU

Have you managed to maintain program and filesystem structure for over two decades with each successive port and hardware upgrade, year after year? I'm beyond meticulous in my madness to have a perpetual machine.

I used to run the entire technology end of a .com over a decade a go. I have a... little bit of experience.

Edited by Mister Blastman, 28 July 2015 - 04:40 PM.

[Trev Firestorm]

pbiggz, on 28 July 2015 - 02:34 PM, said:

PGI SHOULD be pursuing all avenues they can to solve the performance problems that plague the game, and make the game at least look as good as it did in closed beta.

You ask the impossible, you know we can't have nice things!

[darkkterror]

Trev Firestorm, on 28 July 2015 - 04:51 PM, said:

You ask the impossible

That's what Luke said to Yoda about lifting the X-wing. We all know how that turned out

[EgoSlayer]

Mister Blastman, on 28 July 2015 - 04:21 PM, said:

<snip>
Also, some of you clowns around here act like Direct X upgrades are like rubbing a bottle and a genie pops out! This is hilarious. Why don't you call us all up and host a party when you find that fairy.

Because it is a genie in a bottle, you really should get informed before calling other people names like ignorant. DX12 gains two very important benefits that require zero optimization from developers to take advantage of:
1) Multi-GPU support. Crossfire/SLI support no longer have to be built in to the engine or the OEM drivers. It's handled at the DX API level. So games that don't currently support Crossfire/SLI get that support when using a DX12 code path.
And most important one of all:
2) Multi-threaded draw call support. DX10 and before are a single thread for draw calls, DX11 has some add-ons that support a limited amount of mult-threading (Mantle and DX11 Multthreading) but these have limited adoption and support.
For games that are draw call or CPU bound this gains from 10-60% increase in FPS *without* any changes in the code or optimization. Just using the DX12 code path exponentially increases the draw calls even on low end muti-core CPUs. Laptop and AMD CPU users would see FPS improvements without any other changes.

It isn't rocket science, but it is a huge improvement in FPS with out requiring the developers to optimize for it.

Now that we've established why people want it (considering MWO falls into both of the above categories), lets cover why it isn't going to happen:

1) Install base of DX9 and DX12. The majority of the systems playing MWO and in the Steam community don't support DX11, let alone DX12. They are running DX9 and are staying that way for likely a few more years. The install base of DX12 is basically zero. Even if half of MS's reported numbers upgrade in the first year, of that number how many are on Steam? And how many are playing MWO? Likely in the thousands at best, certainly not in the millions.
2) Cryengine - the current MWO version of the cryengine is the last version to support DX9. Future updates drop DX9 support. That means either a) Drop most of MWO/Steam's user base to support DX12, or b ) Custom addition of DX12 by PGI. Neither is a cost effective measure.

As much as I would like to see MWO go DX12 and get rid of the draw call limits that caused the reduced graphics quality when going to 12v12, it just isn't going to happen until the bulk of the player base and Steam are running DX12 capable systems. it's going to take years.

Edited by EgoSlayer, 28 July 2015 - 05:01 PM.

[pbiggz]

EgoSlayer, on 28 July 2015 - 04:59 PM, said:

Because it is a genie in a bottle, you really should get informed before calling other people names like ignorant. DX12 gains two very important benefits that require zero optimization from developers to take advantage of:
1) Multi-GPU support. Crossfire/SLI support no longer have to be built in to the engine or the OEM drivers. It's handled at the DX API level. So games that don't currently support Crossfire/SLI get that support when using a DX12 code path.
And most important one of all:
2) Multi-threaded draw call support. DX10 and before are a single thread for draw calls, DX11 has some add-ons that support a limited amount of mult-threading (Mantle and DX11 Multthreading) but these have limited adoption and support.
For games that are draw call or CPU bound this gains from 10-60% increase in FPS *without* any changes in the code or optimization. Just using the DX12 code path exponentially increases the draw calls even on low end muti-core CPUs. Laptop and AMD CPU users would see FPS improvements without any other changes.

It isn't rocket science, but it is a huge improvement in FPS with out requiring the developers to optimize for it.

Now that we've established why people want it (considering MWO falls into both of the above categories), lets cover why it isn't going to happen:

1) Install base of DX9 and DX12. The majority of the systems playing MWO and in the Steam community don't support DX11, let alone DX12. They are running DX9 and are staying that way for likely a few more years. The install base of DX12 is basically zero. Even if half of MS's reported numbers upgrade in the first year, of that number how many are on Steam? And how many are playing MWO? Likely in the thousands at best, certainly not in the millions.
2) Cryengine - the current MWO version of the cryengine is the last version to support DX9. Future updates drop DX9 support. That means either a) Drop most of MWO/Steam's user base to support DX12, or b ) Custom addition of DX12 by PGI. Neither is a cost effective measure.

As much as I would like to see MWO go DX12 and get rid of the draw call limits that caused the reduced graphics quality when going to 12v12, it just isn't going to happen until the bulk of the player base and Steam are running DX12 capable systems. it's going to take years.

This is constructive

Edited by Rhazien, 28 July 2015 - 05:54 PM.
Quote cleanup

[nitra]

if the thread read like that through out, then yes it would be a constructive thread .

but it is not it has been nothing but you must get windows 10 !!

and frankly its more akin to marketing than a constructive discussion of the pros and cons dx 12 vs dx 11

if you can not see it then maybe you should seriously reconsider how easily you are manipulated by marketing moguls.

[pbiggz]

nitra, on 28 July 2015 - 05:23 PM, said:

if the thread read like that through out, then yes it would be a constructive thread .

but it is not it has been nothing but you must get windows 10 !!

and frankly its more akin to marketing than a constructive discussion of the pros and cons dx 12 vs dx 11

if you can not see it then maybe you should seriously reconsider how easily you are manipulated by marketing moguls.

we're discussing the possible benefits of a proper implementation of direct X 12, given PGI decides to make use of updated cryengine tools. (we know they wont). Take away from it what you will, but you've dedicated nothing of value to the conversation.

[Mardek]

pbiggz, on 28 July 2015 - 02:34 PM, said:

A: you don't have to write a game in cryengine, its a premade engine, you implement a game in cryengine using the tools they gave you, it has an editor, and scripting options. Crytek writes cryengine, the developers use it.

PGI use a heavily modified version of the cryengine, so it will be a pain in the ass to move to a newer version of it

Edited by Mardek, 28 July 2015 - 05:35 PM.

[darqsyde]

Deathlike, on 28 July 2015 - 03:42 PM, said:

When we talk about "potential" when it relates to PGI and MWO... we're still in that phase for 3 years.

While DX12 will surely help, it still requires the developer to actually take advantage of stuff that was already built-into the game (like you know, destructible terrains that are already built into CryEngine 3).

That's an important point.

Oh I'm understand the "Will PGI get it correct?" argument, but the important part is the potential. I have faith in PGI(for reasons that are frankly beyond me) to at least get it partially correct.

And the sooner they release the buggy DX12 implementation, the sooner the will release the fixed version.

Edit: I also believe I know why you will not be upgrading to Win10, and that's fine. My posts are just to clarify why PGI should seriously consider upgrading to DX12, and what that might mean for us.

Edited by darqsyde, 28 July 2015 - 05:42 PM.