92 replies to this topic

[Kiiyor]

Deathlike, on 28 July 2015 - 01:55 PM, said:

Let's be fair about this... this game started with DX9. As much as I'd suspect the majority of people have at least Vista, there's still a performance/compatibility aspect that DX9 affords many players over DX11 and removing it will only get people really angry for whatever legit reason. It's less about XP than it is "breaking" what most people are comfortable with.

It's not as if DX11 is providing anything that DX9 is not. It's just "another (checkbox) option" in marketing MWO to the masses and still is for the most part true.

This is very true - though I don't think a whole lot of time was spent leveraging the additional functionality DX11 brought to the table - and from all the tech investigationing and articles I read about DX11, it wasn't that huge an improvement over 9 anyway.

From all i've read though, DX12 is set to bring some staggering improvements. Normally, the hype train likes to throw around huge performance increase numbers, that in reality are only achieved in very specific circumstances. The development talk I've seen around DX12 though has all pointed towards getting some fairly huge and legitimate performance gains with only moderate investment in actual DX12 optimization - especially where draw calls are concerned.

I've no idea how or if it could be applied to the MWO version of cryengine, but i'd be very interested in finding out if the devs are interested in it.

[darqsyde]

Kiiyor, on 28 July 2015 - 05:39 PM, said:

The development talk I've seen around DX12 though has all pointed towards getting some fairly huge and legitimate performance gains with only moderate investment in actual DX12 optimization - especially where draw calls are concerned.

I've no idea how or if it could be applied to the MWO version of cryengine, but i'd be very interested in finding out if the devs are interested in it.

Draw Calls are, IIRC, the Primary drain on CPU performance in MWO*. So a reduction in draw calls should vastly improve performance in MWO, perhaps freeing up enough to implement some of the "wants" such as destructible terrain.

*Karl Berg post or something similar. Find it you own damn self, I got mechs to shoot.

[MauttyKoray]

Nope, too much time and effort for the feature. MWO is using an older version of the engine (from when they started making it, and updated to wherever they last did) which would require massive engine upgrades (an insane amount of work with an established and existing game) or adding it into their build of the engine, also a lot of work though less so.

I'd rather they worked on more maps, mechs, and content (including CW game modes and even eventually Campaign content for single/co-op play).

[Mister Blastman]

Regardless of the pros/cons or whatever, I believe there are other, far more pressing issues in this game worthy of developer time before Direct X 12 is added. I get over 100 frames a second. There's really no point and I have a decent but not masterful system...

3770k @ 4.2 Ghz
16 gigs RAM
670 GTX

It runs great. Things like convergence are far more worth developer time and would have a significant and meaningful impact on the gameplay and balance experience--stuff that will sell more copies!

A Direct X upgrade isn't likely to sell copies alone, and if it did, the other problems we have wouldn't be addressed and folks would sit here on the forums continuing to debate them ad-nauseam well into the future.

So to me it makes far more sense if some developing were to happen, for it to occur in tangible areas of the game that would make it a more interesting and fun experience, overall.

[Kiiyor]

darqsyde, on 28 July 2015 - 05:46 PM, said:

Draw Calls are, IIRC, the Primary drain on CPU performance in MWO*. So a reduction in draw calls should vastly improve performance in MWO, perhaps freeing up enough to implement some of the "wants" such as destructible terrain.

*Karl Berg post or something similar. Find it you own damn self, I got mechs to shoot.

I remember the post. It's why inverse kinematics was nuked.

[Imperius]

Well whether or not PGI can get DX 12 in I don't know only PGI does. What I do know is they won't do it unless enough people are vocal about it.

[Mister Blastman]

Imperius, on 28 July 2015 - 06:28 PM, said:

Well whether or not PGI can get DX 12 in I don't know only PGI does. What I do know is they won't do it unless enough people are vocal about it.

If that worked then convergence would have been fixed, years ago.

But it hasn't. Even when the forums reached epic sh#@%#%^storm levels. It still wasn't.

[GeistHrafn]

Please keep the thread on topic folks. It interests me, I don't want it to have to go to the birds! Carry on!

Edited by Rhazien, 28 July 2015 - 06:45 PM.

[Imperius]

Mister Blastman, on 28 July 2015 - 06:42 PM, said:

If that worked then convergence would have been fixed, years ago.

But it hasn't. Even when the forums reached epic sh#@%#%^storm levels. It still wasn't.

Well, sorry to say nothing happend because most of us were against losing pinpoint me included. So nothing happened because the vote was not in the option you favored.

Look at ECM better late than never but at least it's being worked on.

[Imperius]

These two images just by adding DX 12 support show how much they can improve our well known CPU bottleneck issues that we currently have with MWO.

This is how DX 11 works

Spoiler

This is how DX 12 works compared notice the load is shared between the CPU

Spoiler

From THIS article
Adding feature levels and implementing them as part of DX12 means that millions of people will see significant benefits from adopting the new API in the here and now. No, older GPUs may not support every single DX12 feature, but no one is going to end up having to choose between a game that looks great in DX11 or a half-assed DX12 version due to graphics card implementation issues. When AMD, Nvidia, and Intel talk about supporting DirectX 12 on older hardware, they’re talking about the features that matter most — lower-overhead APIs, better CPU utilization, and multi-GPU functionality. The actual feature levels that define 12_1 as being different from 11_0 are interesting and useful in certain scenarios, but they aren’t the capabilities that will truly shape how gamers experience gaming with the API.

Edited by Imperius, 28 July 2015 - 07:10 PM.

[Matthew Ace]

For DX12 to happen, DX11 support on MWO probably has to be further improved to the point that running DX11 does not have any drawbacks compared to 9 in all but compatibility; It has to make any users making the switch go "Why would I ever go back to 9?"

I'm all for DX12 as long as DX11 is sufficiently improved in MWO to make all users jump to it (save for certain outliers?).

As it is now, there are players with PC specs much better than mine losing out when they tried DX11; they promptly switched back to DX9 when all attempted tweaks didn't work out.

Edited by Matthew Ace, 28 July 2015 - 07:25 PM.

[Mister Blastman]

Imperius, on 28 July 2015 - 06:55 PM, said:

Well, sorry to say nothing happend because most of us were against losing pinpoint me included. So nothing happened because the vote was not in the option you favored.

Look at ECM better late than never but at least it's being worked on.

Last time I checked, threads haven't stopped popping up for convergence fixes. Nice try but... nope.

[Imperius]

Mister Blastman, on 28 July 2015 - 07:42 PM, said:

Last time I checked, threads haven't stopped popping up for convergence fixes. Nice try but... nope.

Threads about Missiles being overpowered have not stopped popping up either your point? Unless you're going to give reasons with 100% data backed sources that DX 12 would hurt MWO and not help it one bit, or prove that it would be a 100%waste of time, could you please get back on topic or stop fighting with me and others not sharing your opinion about DX12 being waste of time.

DX 12 offers increased FPS and efficiency across the board to all systems from 2010 or newer.
It is to be supported all the way back to the GTX 460 (2010)
Yes newer cards will only see the pretty stuff or effects DX12 has to offer is ever implemented but that isn't the topic.
Windows 10 is going to be offered 100% free to practally anyone.
The adoption rate for DX 12 is going to be quite significant seeing as it's free to practally everyone.
It took 2 engineers 6 weeks to add DX12 functionallity to thier game from DX 11

So low end systems (which I'm not even a supporter of) get a performance boost.
6 weeks to add the API into the engine is reasonable considering all the gains it provides.
MWO can be marketed on Steam as supporting DX12 and provide trust that MWO plans to stick around for the long haul.

Opens up more resources that will be needed for Single/Co-OP campaign to be added, this is needed to generate a good and acceptable new user experience for Steam and growing the fanbase. This in turn enriches CW with AI units, new users that will have a basic understanding of MWO before stepping into CW, better team mates, better CW acceptance will grow CW and MWO will turn great profits.

[Mister Blastman]

Imperius, on 28 July 2015 - 08:10 PM, said:

Threads about Missiles being overpowered have not stopped popping up either your point? Unless you're going to give reasons with 100% data backed sources that DX 12 would hurt MWO and not help it one bit, or prove that it would be a 100%waste of time, could you please get back on topic or stop fighting with me and others not sharing your opinion about DX12 being waste of time.

Look, you can talk about benefits all day long but the fact of the matter is this game has BIGGER issues that are MORE important than a gigantic development effort to give us DX 12. Sorry, it isn't worth their time.

I am on topic. Like it or not, I disagree with your push to implement DX 12. And like you, I'm free to voice my opinion.

Oh, and about CW--the reason CW isn't played much isn't because of framerate or the engine--it is because the mode is just bad. Like I said before, there are BIGGER issues that need to be addressed. Completely overhauling CW is one of them. These bigger issues are worth far more developer attention than trying to yet again port to another level of tech, which, seeing how the port to DX 11 gave us no benefit at all, not even graphical improvement, will most likely not yield any improvement either.

[Imperius]

Mister Blastman, on 28 July 2015 - 08:40 PM, said:

Look, you can talk about benefits all day long but the fact of the matter is this game has BIGGER issues that are MORE important than a gigantic development effort to give us DX 12. Sorry, it isn't worth their time.

I am on topic. Like it or not, I disagree with your push to implement DX 12. And like you, I'm free to voice my opinion.

Oh, and about CW--the reason CW isn't played much isn't because of framerate or the engine--it is because the mode is just bad. Like I said before, there are BIGGER issues that need to be addressed. Completely overhauling CW is one of them. These bigger issues are worth far more developer attention than trying to yet again port to another level of tech, which, seeing how the port to DX 11 gave us no benefit at all, not even graphical improvement, will most likely not yield any improvement either.

You didn't even clearly read my post it seems like. What I explained is a trickle effect of adding DX12. You just went back to derailing the thread. You claim there are BIGGER ISSUES but clearly list none of them or should I say give the reason the programming engineer is needed for your issues and why they are more pressing than adding performance and resource gains to MWO.

Balance = xml files requires ZERO programmers to change
CW the new user experience is the issue, DX 12 allows more resources to be used with better performance this benefits the whole game.

CW is pretty much exactly what was asked for minus adding economy fluff that is irrelevant until CW can get new people and create an community that can actually sustain that created economy.

Edited by Imperius, 28 July 2015 - 08:58 PM.

[sycocys]

My vote is no.

They don't have hi-rez textures for dx9-11, so going to 12 really isn't going to improve the look for most of us at all anyhow. Might get some minor gains on the fps front for some users, but the cost of doing this kind of upgrade versus how much time it will take away from actually developing a game on the engine they have hacked up and rebuilt already just really isn't worth it.

[Imperius]

sycocys, on 28 July 2015 - 09:05 PM, said:

My vote is no.

They don't have hi-rez textures for dx9-11, so going to 12 really isn't going to improve the look for most of us at all anyhow. Might get some minor gains on the fps front for some users, but the cost of doing this kind of upgrade versus how much time it will take away from actually developing a game on the engine they have hacked up and rebuilt already just really isn't worth it.

Ok, what should they be working on? By the way adding DX12 API isn't a whole team task. Two people did it for a DX12 featured game and it only took 6 weeks.

Side note: the way MWO uses CPU and draw calls, it would be a significant gain I've provided all the facts to back up that claim, though videos and articals.

I'm not even talking about improving visuals although I'd love that I have two GTX980's in SLi

[Narcissistic Martyr]

I'd be happy with the high end closed beta graphics that they (rightly) got rid of to let lower end systems play the game.

[MauttyKoray]

Imperius, on 28 July 2015 - 06:55 PM, said:

Well, sorry to say nothing happend because most of us were against losing pinpoint me included. So nothing happened because the vote was not in the option you favored.

Look at ECM better late than never but at least it's being worked on.

Cause unfortunately we have less enthusiasts interested in the simulation style of the game, and instead more try hards who wants their 'skill' to count (cause pinpoint alpha-lol-strike is so much skill...).

But yeah, DX12 would just be far too much work for the benefit and take time out of other, more important projects to update the game.

[Mister Blastman]

Imperius, on 28 July 2015 - 08:57 PM, said:

You didn't even clearly read my post it seems like. What I explained is a trickle effect of adding DX12. You just went back to derailing the thread. You claim there are BIGGER ISSUES but clearly list none of them or should I say give the reason the programming engineer is needed for your issues and why they are more pressing than adding performance and resource gains to MWO.

Balance = xml files requires ZERO programmers to change
CW the new user experience is the issue, DX 12 allows more resources to be used with better performance this benefits the whole game.

CW is pretty much exactly what was asked for minus adding economy fluff that is irrelevant until CW can get new people and create an community that can actually sustain that created economy.

Umm. No. People hate CW because it is simply DOTA Mecha. It is pretty ********. People didn't ask for DOTA Mecha.

Look, you list that DX 12 will get this, this and that--but guess what, it is ALL speculation!

What is NOT speculation is how little of an improvement DX 11 was over 9. In fact... 9 was WORSE than 11 in many cases. But I guess you forgot about that part?

Issues to fix:

Balance (through convergence)
- guess what, .xml fixes, band-****, NOTHING has fixed the balance issues. The core problem is convergence.

Maps (we lack them)

Game modes (they're stale--ticket based respawn gameplay like MW:LL or Battlefield please)

Hit Reg (it still sucks!)

Collisions and knockdowns (ya know, we were promised these what, two, three years ago?)

You know what, I'm not going to bother. Why? Because nothing ever changes. Nothing gets fixed. It's just more of the same. And by shoveling an API upgrade onto their plate, you're helping nothing get done even more!