212 replies to this topic

[Triskelion]

Right, increase TTK so that we can deathball even harder.

[Yellonet]

TTK is only short (in a bad way) when you come up against one of the stupidly powerful mech/weapon combinations. Weapons and armour are not the problem, the problem is that some mechs can have insane alphas.

If you make a mistake and run into several enemy mechs by yourself, then your TTD (time to die) should be short, but as it is now you can just have bad luck and run into a single enemy that instashots you (even if you're in a pretty well armoured mech)... no fun.

Edited by Yellonet, 07 August 2015 - 07:21 AM.

[Veev]

"I am going to go out on a limb here and propose something crazy. Make the mechwarriors choose a weapon convergence range in the mechlab. Lets say you are a brawler, your weapons are set to properly converge at 200 range. Anything too far beyond that makes your weapons insanely inaccurate.
For those that want an auto adjustment feature, create a new system or hardware that will allow it to auto adjust on the fly. But it takes tonnage and a critical slot to implement and it takes some time to adjust down."

[Yellonet]

Veev, on 07 August 2015 - 07:12 AM, said:

"I am going to go out on a limb here and propose something crazy. Make the mechwarriors choose a weapon convergence range in the mechlab. Lets say you are a brawler, your weapons are set to properly converge at 200 range. Anything too far beyond that makes your weapons insanely inaccurate.
For those that want an auto adjustment feature, create a new system or hardware that will allow it to auto adjust on the fly. But it takes tonnage and a critical slot to implement and it takes some time to adjust down."

That doesn't make sense, weapons don't magically become inaccurate outside the convergence range, it's just that they don't converge. In general though, having a set convergence (with the reticule) for each weapon would increase TTK, but likely only marginally, because if you want a good alpha, you will set all your guns to the same distance and then use the weapons close to that range, and if the hardpoints are relatively close together the distance you shoot on will not matter that much anyway.

[Kjudoon]

Veev, on 07 August 2015 - 07:12 AM, said:

"I am going to go out on a limb here and propose something crazy. Make the mechwarriors choose a weapon convergence range in the mechlab. Lets say you are a brawler, your weapons are set to properly converge at 200 range. Anything too far beyond that makes your weapons insanely inaccurate.
For those that want an auto adjustment feature, create a new system or hardware that will allow it to auto adjust on the fly. But it takes tonnage and a critical slot to implement and it takes some time to adjust down."

Ah, the WW2 fighter aircraft approach. Heck even 6MGs wouldn't cross in the same spot, but rather a small tight area thanks to physics. Something that should happen to the laservomit.

A variation of this could be if you make every mech a fixed convergence pattern. Arms on every mech would be worst, followed by the head, while CT weapons would be the least. If then it was made as a percentage of range of the weapon, every weapon would converge at different points thereby completely eliminating many weapon combos ability to strike the same part at the same time and lock in functional ranges. This would also end the long range alpha instantly being able to have all weapons hit together, let alone the target at specific ranges.

There's some real mech mastery for you.

BUT, I don't think that would be a good solution either.

[Veev]

Yellonet, on 07 August 2015 - 07:27 AM, said:

That doesn't make sense, weapons don't magically become inaccurate outside the convergence range, it's just that they don't converge. In general though, having a set convergence (with the reticule) for each weapon would increase TTK, but likely only marginally, because if you want a good alpha, you will set all your guns to the same distance and then use the weapons close to that range, and if the hardpoints are relatively close together the distance you shoot on will not matter that much anyway.

But that is the very nature, they are inaccurate because they fire along a fixed trajectory. Weapons on hard mount points do not stay perfectly converged no matter where they are firing instantly. It takes hardware to fine tune and adjust and computer calculations etc....

[SOL Ranger]

Wintersdark, on 03 August 2015 - 04:59 PM, said:

See the problem? You make Heavies and Assaults vastly more survivable, but barely touch Lights and Mediums.

This is just selective thinking, lights and mediums would scale just as well or even better because their defense comes much more from evasion.

[RoboPatton]

IDK feels right to me.

[Zoid]

We do not have a TTK issue, we have a focus fire/camping issue. If you have a 1v1 with two similar 'mechs and the pilots both properly spreading damage, it actually takes quite a long time to kill something.

The issue with TTK is that the basic PUG strategy is to set up a firing line and camp there, delivering 5 or 6 alpha strikes to anyone that tries to get to them.

I don't know what you would necessarily DO about that, but that's the issue, not TTK.

[M4rtyr]

Zoid, on 07 August 2015 - 01:27 PM, said:

We do not have a TTK issue, we have a focus fire/camping issue. If you have a 1v1 with two similar 'mechs and the pilots both properly spreading damage, it actually takes quite a long time to kill something.

Properly spread damage? Say what?

Properly spreading damage = core the CT... that is why TTK is an issue, because its far to easy to do that.

But changing weapons and armor won't really matter there, not in a good way, so no don't do that.

[MauttyKoray]

Jazzbandit1313, on 03 August 2015 - 04:19 PM, said:

Makes sense to me.

or put something like a 1.5x multiplier on structure across the board.

OR

Armor and structure are already double as it is. Plus there are a ton of quirks across the board increasing them even further on some mechs.

The problem is heat scale mostly. Mechs are able to fire too many weapons at the same time. Seriously, a 60 point alpha? That would literally pop a fair number of mechs using TT rules, and no not being a TT purist here, just using it as an example.

The better way would be to reduce the heat cap and then adjust Armor/Structure, and then ammo (because ammo was also doubled for most weapons to compensate for the increase in Armor/Structure), and finally just tweak everything a little bit at a time to find a good balance.

But, hey, no one ever wants their stuff 'nerfed' so every time I suggest that I get like 10x the negative comments as positive.

[Khobai]

Quote

Right, increase TTK so that we can deathball even harder.

Deathballing would still be a problem that needs to be fixed either way. So what difference does it make?

The most obvious way to reduce the effectiveness of deathballing is to lower the range of certain weapons that are making long-range focus fire too easy. Bringing back brawling would make deathballing less effective too since its harder to focus fire when your LoS is blocked by friendlies in a brawl.

I think a combination of bringing back brawling and increasing internal structure would solve a lot of the game's issues.

Quote

The problem is heat scale mostly.

making the heatscale more punitive would just result in the rise of dual gauss as the new meta.

heatscale isnt the biggest problem. the problem is being able to precisely aim/converge your shots at whatever location you want.

Edited by Khobai, 07 August 2015 - 08:13 PM.

[General Solo]

Why is death balling a problem.
Death balling is just teamwork, well one form of it.
And team work is OP.
This game cannot be won without teamwork.

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 08 August 2015 - 01:19 AM.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

the TT is absolutely unrealistic, even by the small distances, since hitting a pilot no 10m high machine 400m away, because the distances for the scale were shortened unrealistic to can even play it on a table ... in real would be the Distances probably 1-4 km for Mechweapons, but who has such a large table, why does not the mechanics of the TT in a tactical shooter ... Imagine Battlefield 2 as TT before where the AK74 fires only 30m wide, and fires fail next in 50% of cases

In the TT, the Mechs meet not even at distances where a normal soldier of the American Civil War hit, then why laser, mechs? and not again Napoleon cannon and percussion rifles

all this Ponyfarm Whinery ...TeamPlay is OP, all other Player to good in aim ,more as one firing of a Target ...Whiners !go play Singleplayergames or waiting of a Solaris Mode

translate from german with Google...
das TT ist absolut unrealistisch ,schon durch die geringen entfernungen ,da trifft ein pilot keine 10m hohe maschine in 400m entfernung , weil die Entfernungen für den Masstab unrealistisch verkürzt wurden, um es noch auf einen Tisch spielen zu können...in real wären die Entfernungen wohl eher 1-4 km für die Mechwaffen ,aber wer hat so einen großen Tisch, deshalb funktioniert die mechanik vom TT nicht in einem Taktik Shooter...stellt euch Battlefield 2 als TT vor, wo die AK74 nur 30m weit feuert, und in 50% aller Fälle daneben feuert.

Im TT treffen Mechs nicht mal auf entfernungen ,mwo ein normaler Soldat des amerikanischen Bürgerkriegs traf ,wozu dann laser ,Mechs ? und nicht wieder Napoleon Kanonen und Perkussionsgewehre

Edited by CSJ Ranger, 08 August 2015 - 06:08 AM.

[Veev]

CSJ Ranger, on 08 August 2015 - 01:57 AM, said:

the TT is absolutely unrealistic, even by the small distances, since hitting a pilot no 10m high machine 400m away, because the distances for the scale were shortened unrealistic to can even play it on a table ... in real would be the Distances probably 1-4 km for Mechweapons, but who has such a large table, why does not the mechanics of the TT in a tactical shooter ... Imagine Battlefield 2 as TT before where the AK74 fires only 30m wide, and fires fail next in 50% of cases

In the TT, the Mechs meet not even at distances where a normal soldier of the American Civil War hit, then why laser, mechs? and not again Napoleon cannon and percussion rifles

all this Ponyfarm Whinery ...TeamPlay is OP, all other Player to good in aim ,more as one firing of a Target ...Whiners !go play Singleplayergames or waiting of a Solaris Mode

translate from german with Google...
das TT ist absolut unrealistisch ,schon durch die geringen entfernungen ,da trifft ein pilot keine 10m hohe maschine in 400m entfernung , weil die Entfernungen für den Masstab unrealistisch verkürzt wurden, um es noch auf einen Tisch spielen zu können...in real wären die Entfernungen wohl eher 1-4 km für die Mechwaffen ,aber wer hat so einen großen Tisch, deshalb funktioniert die mechanik vom TT nicht in einem Taktik Shooter...stellt euch Battlefield 2 als TT vor, wo die AK74 nur 30m weit feuert, und in 50% aller Fälle daneben feuert.

Im TT treffen Mechs nicht mal auf entfernungen ,mwo ein normaler Soldat des amerikanischen Bürgerkriegs traf ,wozu dann laser ,Mechs ? und nicht wieder Napoleon Kanonen und Perkussionsgewehre

Es dauert viele Hardware Dinge genauer an Größe zu machen. Was mehr ist es braucht ein Verständnis für die Technologie beteiligt . In dieser Welt, die Sie mit einer Gesellschaft, die die Grundlagen vergessen hat, und ging zu weit über sie hinaus zu tun haben. Sie treffen einen Punkt, wo sie eine Menge von zukünftigen Tech verloren und sind nur mit dem fortgeschrittenen Zeug verlassen . Betrachten Sie es wie ein Standard- Stadtmensch ist erforderlich, um in den Wäldern für ein Jahr ohne Vorwarnung oder Zeit zur Vorbereitung zu leben. Sie könnten es zusammen durcheinander und damit es funktioniert , aber sie werden nicht bequem sein und sind viel eher zu sterben.


Translated from google translate

It takes lots of hardware to make things accurate at size. Whats more it takes an understanding of the technology involved. In this world you are dealing with a society that has forgotten the basics and went too far beyond it. They hit a point where they lost a lot of tech and are left with just the advanced stuff and no understanding of it. Consider it like a standard city slicker being required to live in the woods for a year without any warning or time to prepare. They might muddle it together and make it work, but they will not be comfortable and are much more likely to die.

Edited by Veev, 08 August 2015 - 08:01 AM.

[Graugger]

Solution: Halve ammo per ton & Hard cap mech's heat tolerance to 20.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Yellonet, on 07 August 2015 - 07:12 AM, said:

TTK is only short (in a bad way) when you come up against one of the stupidly powerful mech/weapon combinations. Weapons and armour are not the problem, the problem is that some mechs can have insane alphas.

If you make a mistake and run into several enemy mechs by yourself, then your TTD (time to die) should be short, but as it is now you can just have bad luck and run into a single enemy that instashots you (even if you're in a pretty well armoured mech)... no fun.

Yellonet, on 07 August 2015 - 07:12 AM, said:

TTK is only short (in a bad way) when you come up against one of the stupidly powerful mech/weapon combinations. Weapons and armour are not the problem, the problem is that some mechs can have insane alphas.

If you make a mistake and run into several enemy mechs by yourself, then your TTD (time to die) should be short, but as it is now you can just have bad luck and run into a single enemy that instashots you (even if you're in a pretty well armoured mech)... no fun.

I like my 72 (or 80 I cant remember) King Crab. The fact that I cant alpha those all onto a single target being that theres two lrms in that grouping is funny tho

stupid razre naga and randomly double/triple clicking. Sorry bout that

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 08 August 2015 - 08:16 AM.

[Veev]

Graugger, on 08 August 2015 - 08:04 AM, said:

Solution: Halve ammo per ton & Hard cap mech's heat tolerance to 20.

Thats brilliant.... Or not, we can all be lights since the assaults would be worthless.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Veev, on 07 August 2015 - 10:24 AM, said:

But that is the very nature, they are inaccurate because they fire along a fixed trajectory. Weapons on hard mount points do not stay perfectly converged no matter where they are firing instantly. It takes hardware to fine tune and adjust and computer calculations etc....

Weapons on a Mech aren't hardmounted in this sense, they tend to have gimballed mounts with servos and the targeting systems of the Mech move them as needed to keep them on target, it's not like someone welded the guns directly on the thing.

Torso mounted weapons in TT actually have a nice wide cone they can fire in on the front facing, it's not directly ahead and that's it, which is something we do NOT get in MWO, but did get in previous MW titles. We also had a mix of instant pinpoint convergence and not so instant convergence depending on which title you played, so this isn't a new thing for the MW titles, it's always been part of them, as they ALL had perfect convergence either instantly or within a few seconds. TTK in MWO is a lot higher than it was in the previous MW titles too, but it doesn't have respawn so that really does make it seem different.

[Bloodweaver]

Khobai, on 03 August 2015 - 07:39 PM, said:

50% more internal structure is sensible I think.

More internal structure makes critical hits matter more which is really needed. Its sad that locations get destroyed so quickly that critical hits never really impact the game much.

Increasing internal structure also avoids the problems inherent with increasing armor such as making spread weapons like LBX less useful. But if you only increase internal structure, and not armor, weapons like LBX remain useful, because theyre still hitting internal structure and causing crit damage.

Lastly by increasing structure instead of armor you dont have to change the armor points per ton. So the mech designs stay exactly the same.

The other benefit is that using full armor values becomes far less vital. A lot of 'Mechs run pretty low armor in their stock configurations. In TT, this was a sensible compromise for firepower/speed/heat efficiency, because of the lack of PPFLD alphas. You could safely lower armor, quite a bit in fact.

In all MW games, and MWO even more so than the others, running anything less than full (or nearly-full) armor is just plain stupid. This is because of PPFLD. 50 points of armor doesn't last long against a single weapon that dishes out 40 damage - and when you can fire two PPCs and four MLs at the same time, hitting the exact same location, they do in fact count as a single weapon. That's almost certainly never ever ever going to go away in MWO, despite how much sense it would make.

So, in order to counteract that, we need a different solution. Strongly increasing internal structure, while paying less attention to armor buffs, is a decent middle ground. PPFLD will still be an issue, but because the armor itself is now less important, you can safely shave off a ton or two from most 'Mechs while staying relatively well-protected. This is, by the overall game design of Battletech, supposed to be a viable option. Armor was never meant to be an absolute must-have. Viability was balanced between armor, firepower, speed, and heat efficiency - making armor absolutely vital at max values all the time, no exceptions, breaks this balancing act.

The other change that could be done to MWO's damage system in order to increase TTK, is to change the way crit damage is applied. I haven't thought about it in depth yet, but one possible method that comes to mind immediately is to make critical systems absorb damage, and to lower their health.

Currently, a PPC or an AC/20 is much better against exposed 'Mech components than Machine Guns. Machine Guns get a buff for crit damage, but all critical systems (the items carried inside your 'Mech components - weapons, ammo, BAP, heat sinks, etc.) have 10 health. It takes some time for Machine Guns to reach 10 damage, because they are not FLD. This is actually a double nerf against their critting ability - not only does it take a while to destroy an item at 10 health(as opposed to a PPC or Gauss, which would destroy it immediately), because since they do damage over time, that damage also gets spread out among the various items in the 'Mech component the Machine Gun is hitting. So that makes it take even longer again.

A FLD weapon, on the other hand, will immediately put all damage into the item, and only that one item, that it crits. So Machine Guns are still lackluster even for critting, the one area in which they have received some moderate buffs. How to address this?

Make items absorb damage. If your AC/20 crits a heat sink in the target's left torso, and that heat sink only had 2 health left? Your AC/20 only does 2 damage to that item, and a baseline 2 damage to the internal structure. Keep crit-damage multiplier tables, so you have the chance of doing up to triple the crit damage to the target's internal structure - in that unlikely scenario, you would do 2 damage to the item and 6 damage to the internal structure. But the 18 remaining points of damage do not get counted - and why should they? Your shell hit the target's heat sink, not his skeleton or his Large Laser.

*rabble rabble rabble muh erterkurnnens muh Gerss rabble*

Yeah, but the thing is - FLD weapons should not be universally superior in all situations. Everything that has an upside, should also have a cost along with it - that's how you achieve balance. PPFLD in MWO is absolutely superior to spread damage, and damage over time, in every way. And this is why TTK is still an issue.

By making critical systems more absorbent, you increase 'Mechs' survivability. But there is also another effect - by doing this, you also make 'Mechs more fragile at the same time. You will start to lose your critical systems more often, and this will affect your long-term performance in the match. Basically, there is more of a middle zone between being fully functional and being dead. Right now, those two states don't have much space in between them, and it only really varies depending on which chassis you use. Making items damage-absorbent makes your 'Mech last longer, but it makes your system die faster.

Combine that with an internal structure buff, and you get nice, long TTKs even with PPFLD, and you make armor more balanced by it no longer being absolutely needed. If for some ungodly reason it's still not enough, simply lower crit health for items from 10 down to 5 or 3. Then the heavy-hitting weapons have a place in dishing out damage, while the smaller, faster-cycling weapons have a place in tearing up internals.

Edited by Bloodweaver, 08 August 2015 - 09:31 AM.