236 replies to this topic

[Hotthedd]

Mister Blastman, on 29 December 2015 - 08:25 AM, said:

But it does enhance the e-sport aspect. Professional gamers have a few key attributes that helps them succeed... They have great reflexes, they have fantastic memory, they can think on their feet and they don't give up.

The traditional model of fixed maps tests reflexes, memory, thinking on feet (somewhat) and tenacity, but having procedurally generated maps will push them even further. No longer can they rely just on memory for the map... they must think on their feet, rely on memory based on what they've observed on past maps and make deductions on where to go...

And not only that... the memory must be re-made each and every map. Hardcore gamers will love this!

A new map for every single planet. And through seeds, each planet's map could be kept unique so it is the same every time, just procedurally generated on the fly.

However, each planet can have millions of locations! So you never know where the dropships will land!

The possibilities are endless. Why waste more time making maps when you can make an algorithm to make them for you?

It could be even simpler than that. There are a finite number of (inhabited) worlds in the BT universe. All they have to do is make those planets and save them. Like you say, the battles could occur on different locations all over the planet.

The e-sport comment was (a little) tongue-in-cheek. The whole concept of CW battles being an e-sport does not really work. It would be far better, in my opinion, to have Solaris IV arenas for the e-sport part of MW:O. It is actually MADE for exactly that.

[Mister Blastman]

Hotthedd, on 29 December 2015 - 08:41 AM, said:

It could be even simpler than that. There are a finite number of (inhabited) worlds in the BT universe. All they have to do is make those planets and save them. Like you say, the battles could occur on different locations all over the planet.

The e-sport comment was (a little) tongue-in-cheek. The whole concept of CW battles being an e-sport does not really work. It would be far better, in my opinion, to have Solaris IV arenas for the e-sport part of MW:O. It is actually MADE for exactly that.

Well the way seeding works is... well, here, listen to it in action.

http://www.abundant-music.com/

Those are procedurally generated songs. They are based off a seed. This seed is essentially a long number with perhaps some letters and groups of letters and numbers. It is a string of data that is very small and compact.

The software then reads this seed and uses it to generate the song. The same concept applies to Elite, planets and even maps. A small string of data can generate the entire world. Once you build the procedural interpreter, you can input as many seeds as you like to create whatever.

You can even tailor the seeds to your own liking to produce predictable results, as the procedural generator will generate the same thing every single time if you feed it the same seed.

The challenge is building a robust generator and interpreter to allow for all the different types of environments and terrain types (or even bases) we might encounter. Space Engine, Anteworld and Elite demonstrate that it can be done and quite well.

The only way to have a game with a huge scope is procedural generation. It is way too expensive to employ an art department and programming team large enough to crank out skyrim-level detail on a galactic scale. So... instead, you have procedural generation to take care of that for you.

Oh, neat little morsel--Skyrim's terrain was procedurally generated.

[Rhaythe]

Mister Blastman, on 29 December 2015 - 07:36 AM, said:

So next time anyone here says, "Oh, procedural maps in a multiplayer environment are too complicated for MWO!" Just take a look at Elite. It is already doing it. And people are playing it every single night.

And as I said months ago, games have to be designed with procedural generation from the beginning, as Elite was. Shoving it into an existing title is expensive, time consuming, expensive, buggy, and above all... expensive.

I absolutely love the idea, Blastman, but harping about it and pointing to other games that do it - especially non-competitive games like Elite - won't bring it to MWO.

PS: The competitive component of Elite, CQC, uses non-procedural maps.

[Satan n stuff]

Rhaythe, on 29 December 2015 - 08:54 AM, said:

PS: The competitive component of Elite, CQC, uses non-procedural maps.

Because it's impossible to randomly create balanced maps.

[Rhaythe]

Satan n stuff, on 29 December 2015 - 08:56 AM, said:

Because it's impossible to randomly create balanced maps.

Basically my point exactly. It can be done. But it takes one hell of an algorithm and a hell of a vetting process upon generation, and again the game needs to be designed around it.

[zagibu]

Satan n stuff, on 29 December 2015 - 08:56 AM, said:

Because it's impossible to randomly create balanced maps.

Nah, you can easily generate symmetrical maps.

[Hotthedd]

Satan n stuff, on 29 December 2015 - 08:56 AM, said:

Because it's impossible to randomly create balanced maps.

It's not exactly easy for PGI, either .

But that was my point about once all of the planets have been created and stored, specific drop zones can be edited.

[Satan n stuff]

zagibu, on 29 December 2015 - 09:04 AM, said:

Nah, you can easily generate symmetrical maps.

Symmetry does not equal balance.

[zagibu]

Satan n stuff, on 29 December 2015 - 09:06 AM, said:

Symmetry does not equal balance.

Oh? Care to elaborate?

Even then, you could to it like it's done in sports: just switch sides. Basically play two matches on the same map, and the team that does it in less time wins.

[Satan n stuff]

zagibu, on 29 December 2015 - 09:08 AM, said:

Oh? Care to elaborate?

Even then, you could to it like it's done in sports: just switch sides. Basically play two matches on the same map, and the team that does it in less time wins.

Well, do you expect to do anything at all on a wide open map with an SRM boat? Symmetry or not, you're screwed. Brought long range on a map where you can't shoot anything beyond 200m? Same thing. There is more to game balance than just making the map symmetrical.

[Hotthedd]

Satan n stuff, on 29 December 2015 - 09:11 AM, said:

Well, do you expect to do anything at all on a wide open map with an SRM boat? Symmetry or not, you're screwed. Brought long range on a map where you can't shoot anything beyond 200m? Same thing. There is more to game balance than just making the map symmetrical.

There is.
But imagine if a player were able to do a little research on the planet and expected battle theatre in advance of dropping into the match.
Bingo! They could tailor their 'mech, or entire dropdeck, right down to the camo, for the expected engagement.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

zagibu, on 29 December 2015 - 08:15 AM, said:

It doesn't have to be downloaded, you can simply synchronize a map seed and every client computer generates it locally.

Not that Ive ever seen in games like counterstrike and that seems pretty popular

Satan n stuff, on 29 December 2015 - 09:11 AM, said:

Well, do you expect to do anything at all on a wide open map with an SRM boat? Symmetry or not, you're screwed. Brought long range on a map where you can't shoot anything beyond 200m? Same thing. There is more to game balance than just making the map symmetrical.

we have that issue NOW

Alpine, etc

[AztecD]

BT 3025 had random generated maps and they where awesome, and this is a game from 2001

[Imperius]

Mister Blastman, on 04 August 2015 - 11:30 AM, said:

Well, I'm sorry to burst your bubble but those worlds are generated realtime at sixty frames per second without substantial delay. On average, I might have to wait ten seconds for the terrain to render in an area a hundred times larger than the River City remake. That's as long as it takes to load into the game. I am free to move about, explore or do whatever as it renders the smallest details and once they are, whee! Off I go. I can explore the whole planet! No pop-up. It's just... there.

What's the big deal?

There's no downloading. There's no uploading. The only thing that is shared is the random seed and the parameters--small packets worth of information. This is trivial. This is now.

I've already said I want procedurally generated maps for the longest time, but it sadly would only be possible for PVE. Since the whole game is server based this won't work.

I still suggest they use them for all the CW planets so each planet can have its own map.

Edited by Imperius, 29 December 2015 - 11:56 AM.

[Sagamore]

We get stuck on pebbles in official maps. I wonder how much rage a random map would induce?

I was a big fan of the F-Zero franchise when I was younger and F-Zero X for the N64 had the "X Cup" where you would do a Grand Prix on all randomly generated maps. The best strategy was to usually take it very slow and let the computer AI try to navigate the impossible turns and sudden drop offs (they couldn't) which would sometimes result in me being the last racer left!

[M T]

Procedurally Generated maps CAN work depending on which game.

All the previous games I know and played, no. Didnt work. Star Trek Online used this for exploration, and its just dumb.

Elite Dangerous apparently uses it too. Result? nothing but the same crap except that the planet has a different color and the sky looks different.

Space games you dont want to have crap like this, you want to explore real stuff that the devs / artists actually put effort into.

I can see it work in a game like MWO though. In fact im surprised this game doesnt already have something like it.

Edited by MTs Cavia Porcellus, 29 December 2015 - 11:01 AM.

[zagibu]

Satan n stuff, on 29 December 2015 - 09:11 AM, said:

Well, do you expect to do anything at all on a wide open map with an SRM boat? Symmetry or not, you're screwed. Brought long range on a map where you can't shoot anything beyond 200m? Same thing. There is more to game balance than just making the map symmetrical.

I don't see how this would be a big issue with randomly generated maps, unless you are of the opinion that the current maps we have are somehow balanced in this aspect?

Also, what I meant was balance between the teams. The problem you bring up is the same for everyone and could be countered by bringing generalist loadouts that work in all situations.

[pbiggz]

procedural generation is the way to go, especially for a game like this, and especially if PGI wont allow community made maps.

For those who are obsessed with arena balance, get over yourselves, the world isn't arena balanced, and when each map is completely unknown to the players, scouts become a necessity, and strategy becomes critical, because even if the map is not arena balanced, neither you or the enemy knows whos actually at the disadvantage until the teams hit each other.

The gameplay options are quite literally limitless and the tech today can handle it, even in PVP.

[Imperius]

pbiggz, on 29 December 2015 - 11:46 AM, said:

procedural generation is the way to go, especially for a game like this, and especially if PGI wont allow community made maps.

For those who are obsessed with arena balance, get over yourselves, the world isn't arena balanced, and when each map is completely unknown to the players, scouts become a necessity, and strategy becomes critical, because even if the map is not arena balanced, neither you or the enemy knows whos actually at the disadvantage until the teams hit each other.

The gameplay options are quite literally limitless and the tech today can handle it, even in PVP.

But but muh e-sports... all these kids trying to balance war all the time in terms of being "fair" lol scubs

[Ex Atlas Overlord]

Zeusus, on 04 August 2015 - 11:26 AM, said:

Second won't work. I'm not waiting 20 minutes to DL/generate a map each match...

It happens on the fly.

Elite does this right now. (but to be fair it's just rocky worlds currently)

Edited by The Atlas Overlord, 29 December 2015 - 12:56 PM.