98 replies to this topic

[IraqiWalker]

Zuesacoatl, on 05 August 2015 - 11:14 PM, said:

I see what you are saying. I drop with my brothers, and as solo. I honestly did not know that solos are no longer dropped with groups, I have based that off of the fact that when in solo mode, I have seen same tags, same group on opfor, so it is hard not to assume. But even in group queue, when you have a full roster of 228 show up against a rag tag team of different groups, what would you call that other then a pug stomp? My brothers and I are not part of a clan anymore, we are pugs for all intents and purposes, and going against the 228 or any other group like that is considered pug stomping no matter how you try sugar coat it.

Except we now have VOIP, in-game, good VOIP too (Caps Lock key by default). It's easily shown that a team's performance increases the better they are at using VOIP. Yes, a unit that drills together will be able to beat most of what you throw at them, but I was there when a rag tag group of pugs beat the snot out of a full 12 man. It's happened more than once.

So while you guys aren't dropping with a unit anymore, you still have a much better chance at winning in the group queue, thanks to VOIP, and the fact that most people are running very good builds, and are in it to win it.

Also, there really aren't that many 12 mans running around, for them to be a real problem. 10 mans are a lot more likely, than 12.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 06 August 2015 - 02:51 AM.

[Kin3ticX]

supposedly there will be an NGNG podcast on 8/6 and they will at some point talk about problems with CW and possible fixes.

[TWIAFU]

Zuesacoatl, on 05 August 2015 - 11:06 PM, said:

No, i do that now in the public queue, that is why i say that is neither here nor there. But I stopped dropping in CW as a solo because of the pug stomps that happen. It is not sporting to drag a game on just to get kills, you can make more money overall by ending games quickly and moving on. All they did was just compare their epeens on comms as they stomp pugs and drive them away. Then complain that there is no one in CW anymore to drop against. Like eating spoiled yogurt and complaining you have bubble guts, kind of your own doing.

You mean kinda like dropping solo into the Group/Unit focused part of the game and complaining that you are getting killed by groups and units?

Your right, it is your own doing.

[Zuesacoatl]

TWIAFU, on 06 August 2015 - 03:41 AM, said:

You mean kinda like dropping solo into the Group/Unit focused part of the game and complaining that you are getting killed by groups and units?

Your right, it is your own doing.

This is the ignorance that persists from big groups. If not for the solos and small groups that join CW, you would not be dropping as much. Maybe some of you were not around when 12s could only drop against 12s, but I was, and groups were not happy at all, many left the game all together, now you guys go around farming them instead of just ending the game and moving on and chase them off that it is starting to kill a portion of the CW population.

The other part of your ignorance is to assume that CW is for groups only. If that was the case, solo would never have been able to drop in the queue, and the flexible group size system would be stressed even more to handle the fastest drops possible. I personally do not care anymore because I have stepped out of CW as have many solo players. You guys can have your fun, but the threads of " Drops not happening fast enough" and "CW population too low" i see popping up needs to stop because it is caused by the teams of the players posting these complaints. You may not like seeing us complain about this issue, but you sure do like us being there to ensure your drops happen. Kinda funny if you ask me.

[ApolloKaras]

IraqiWalker, on 05 August 2015 - 06:47 PM, said:

More C-bills, and bigger damage numbers?

There'll be epic Cbills on the ghost drop next round lol. We're just shooting ourselves in the foot if we do that.

TWIAFU, on 06 August 2015 - 03:41 AM, said:

You mean kinda like dropping solo into the Group/Unit focused part of the game and complaining that you are getting killed by groups and units?

Your right, it is your own doing.

This is kinda true, but without the solo folks we'll have nothing in CW. Unless you intend to drive them off. Which is exactly what the practice I talked about in the OP is doing.

Edited by Saxie, 06 August 2015 - 05:08 PM.

[MaxFool]

The reason why spawn camping still happens is because one side is playing so badly and timidly that they are cornered into their spawn area, and rather than wait for them to come out the other team proceeds to kill them at maximum speed.

It's rather telling that the only scenario in OP was the one where the team that gets spawn camped is defending in invasion mode. In the 3 other possible scenarios for the spawn camp, if you want the match to end before 30 mins, you actually need to kill all the enemy mechs. Sometimes spawn camps happen in one sided matches where one team is just not coming out of their spawn, so they have to be killed there. Other times it's just faster that way.

I have been on both ends of spawn camping plenty of times, and I have to say, it's never a shame on attackers, it's always a shame on defenders. If you don't want to get spawn camped, just go and attack the enemy before they get to your spawn.

[IraqiWalker]

Zuesacoatl, on 06 August 2015 - 04:08 AM, said:

This is the ignorance that persists from big groups. If not for the solos and small groups that join CW, you would not be dropping as much. Maybe some of you were not around when 12s could only drop against 12s, but I was, and groups were not happy at all, many left the game all together, now you guys go around farming them instead of just ending the game and moving on and chase them off that it is starting to kill a portion of the CW population.

The other part of your ignorance is to assume that CW is for groups only. If that was the case, solo would never have been able to drop in the queue, and the flexible group size system would be stressed even more to handle the fastest drops possible. I personally do not care anymore because I have stepped out of CW as have many solo players. You guys can have your fun, but the threads of " Drops not happening fast enough" and "CW population too low" i see popping up needs to stop because it is caused by the teams of the players posting these complaints. You may not like seeing us complain about this issue, but you sure do like us being there to ensure your drops happen. Kinda funny if you ask me.

Let me put this clearly:

NO ONE wants solo rambos in CW. What we need in CW is players that are willing to work with the team. You wanna drop in CW, be willing to jump into a Teamspeak server, and coordinate with a group. You don't even need a mic. You can just listen, and help out.

The game has LFG, Faction chat, and in-game VOIP. CW is a mode focused on cooperation, and teamwork, that's what we mean by "group play".

No one wants a solo rambo who will go off on his own, ruin the team's plans, and set us back 4 mechs, if not more.

That's the main thrust of what I want to get across. I drop SOLO into CW, but I use VOIP, and I go to a faction's TS server when I am dropping on their borders, to help coordinate a defense. Solo players, are different from solo rambos.

[LORD ORION]

Saxie, on 04 August 2015 - 04:34 PM, said:

Why does it happen? (This is mainly in reference to Attack scenarios, and I mean the attacking team is the one doing the farming) Instead of wiping all 48 mechs out, all we really have to do is wipe out Omega. I find it deplorable and I see units on all sides do it every chance we get. The only thing it really does is irritate the hell out of people and just causes them not to play CW at all.

Just came out of a group where we did it. Just isn't fun at all.

Putting together a skittle defense force happens when 12 mans attack.

eg: Ceasfire over... 12 man is not going to defend a planet not under attack.... they attack, and skittles form to defend.

[MischiefSC]

So I pugged 3 matches in CW tonight. First time playing CW since, like, February or March or so.

It reminded me of something very clearly -

The problem is not groups. The problem is the players who are pugging. One match we coordinated, someone called the drop and we did alright. It was 38/46 against a 10man and literally 1/2 of my team was either new to CW or just returning (like myself). We coordinated, we organized and while not everyone stuck to the plan we did alright. Had a few of us (myself included) sucked less we'd have won it.

The next match though nobody communicated. A couple of us tried but the team had no interest in it. Non-responsive. So we got *crushed*. A couple of the pugs discoed when it started being obvious we were losing. Yes, other side was an 11man plus 1 pug and it was that incredibly bad map (Emerald Tiga I think) but we didn't lose to an 11man; we lost by being clearly and almost intentionally stupid.

We deserved to lose. We put in no effort, several of my teammates had mechs that you'd laugh at in pug queue and we didn't even try.

maybe they were brand new. Maybe none of them spoke english. There are a ton of excuses but the reality is that the first pug team I had would have absolutely rolled the 2nd pug team I had just as bad as the enemy 11man did - because the 2nd pug team put in no effort.

That doesn't need 'balanced'. that doesn't need 'fixed'. We were not 'farmed', we were stupid.

The 3rd game we had a 5man team who took the lead and called, everyone else followed orders and we absolutely crushed.

It wasn't that we had a 5man team though - it was that we all followed orders and played as a team.

The issue isn't pugs.

The issue is bads.

Bads are going to lose, because they refuse to play as a team or just flat out don't care.

[Aresye]

MischiefSC, on 06 August 2015 - 08:02 PM, said:

So I pugged 3 matches in CW tonight. First time playing CW since, like, February or March or so.

It reminded me of something very clearly -
The problem is not groups. The problem is the players who are pugging. One match we coordinated, someone called the drop and we did alright. It was 38/46 against a 10man and literally 1/2 of my team was either new to CW or just returning (like myself). We coordinated, we organized and while not everyone stuck to the plan we did alright. Had a few of us (myself included) sucked less we'd have won it.

Was this the game against us on Boreal? I distinctly remember seeing you on the other side and being absolutely amazed at how well the pugs were fighting. Figured you were all a much larger group on a TS hub or something.

[o0Marduk0o]

Kin3ticX, on 04 August 2015 - 11:07 PM, said:

There has to be a basic matchmaker aspect.

How successful is the matchmaker in the public queues to prevent one sided games?

[MischiefSC]

Aresye Kerensky, on 06 August 2015 - 09:04 PM, said:

Was this the game against us on Boreal? I distinctly remember seeing you on the other side and being absolutely amazed at how well the pugs were fighting. Figured you were all a much larger group on a TS hub or something.

That was me! My first CW match since, like, March. We had a 4man of a FRR unit who was training new people for CW and the rest of us were pugs.

Even more to the point all that happened was we got a match, someone said 'Who wants to call the drop' and one of the other pugs said 'I will if everyone will listen'. It wasn't even called by the 4man, they were training.

Just one guy willing to call the drop and everyone else listened. That's it.

Which is the whole point. We did alright - if we'd been a bit more up to par that could have gone either way. Not because we were all even on TS, just that we put in the effort to work together like a team.

The issue isn't pugs. Pugs are fine. The issue is people not trying, not wanting to put forward even minimal effort to play as a team and coordinate.

We don't need a matchmaker, we don't need to 'split out groups', because it's not groups that's the issue. It's people who are willing to try and people who just want to win without having to try. Trying means playing with your team and working to coordinate.

That's it.

[DaisuSaikoro Nagasawa]

Pug Stomping is SOOOOO boring (from a fellow in a unit that can regularly field 12 man groups). And it makes a team weaker to. It gives this false sense of what can be achieved which goes out the window once facing a stronger team.

Just throwing that out there. Why don't they allow defenders to group up (mixed units). It might make their Looking For Group mechanism some headaches, but letting different faction players come together in defense of a planet might help in some infinitesimally small way.

[IraqiWalker]

o0Marduk0o, on 06 August 2015 - 09:27 PM, said:

How successful is the matchmaker in the public queues to prevent one sided games?

Somewhere between zero, and zero point 1 (0 , 0.1)

Over the past 3 weeks, most of my matches have been ending in the 12-2 range. I've only had ONE 12-11 match, and it was an absolute doozy. Had I been in a mech other than my ARC with no basics, we would have won.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 06 August 2015 - 11:59 PM.

[Vlad Ward]

Sthtopokeon, on 05 August 2015 - 03:41 AM, said:

-It's just the enormous disparity between premades and pugs. This is where PGI has to start, when they completly rethink CW. Which I hope they'll do.

The technical disparity between having matching tags and not having matching tags is negligible.

Stomps don't occur because premades run up against pugs. Stomps occur because goods run up against bads. It just so happens that more goods happen to play in units together and more bads happen to drop solo once or twice a week with LRM Adders because you're not my real dad don't tell me what to pilot.

The game now has integrated VOIP, pre-match lobbies, and the ability to select/change mechs after meeting your teammates and learning what map and mode you'll be playing. There is literally no other significant gameplay advantage to being in a premade that PGI could patch out.

There is no "fix" to save bads from being stomped by better players. If Red Team is better than Blue Team, you lose.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 06 August 2015 - 11:51 PM.

[Vlad Ward]

MischiefSC, on 06 August 2015 - 08:02 PM, said:

snip

Oh my god stop reading my miiind.

I just started playing again after taking a few months off to finish my thesis and my experiences have been pretty similar. My team is mostly playing path of exile right now so I'm pugging CW a lot. 3-4 solid players using mechs that aren't bloody awful are usually enough to carry a team. The problem is the sheer number of people who can't even reach that level of play.

[TWIAFU]

Zuesacoatl, on 06 August 2015 - 04:08 AM, said:

This is the ignorance that persists from big groups. If not for the solos and small groups that join CW, you would not be dropping as much. Maybe some of you were not around when 12s could only drop against 12s, but I was, and groups were not happy at all, many left the game all together, now you guys go around farming them instead of just ending the game and moving on and chase them off that it is starting to kill a portion of the CW population.

The other part of your ignorance is to assume that CW is for groups only. If that was the case, solo would never have been able to drop in the queue, and the flexible group size system would be stressed even more to handle the fastest drops possible. I personally do not care anymore because I have stepped out of CW as have many solo players. You guys can have your fun, but the threads of " Drops not happening fast enough" and "CW population too low" i see popping up needs to stop because it is caused by the teams of the players posting these complaints. You may not like seeing us complain about this issue, but you sure do like us being there to ensure your drops happen. Kinda funny if you ask me.

If solo players are so numerous and so prevalent in game and CW, why are they less then half of all population? Why is it, if solo/casuals are so numerous, less then half of all players in Group Q are solo? Your over-inflated self value is showing.

Odd you claim that I farm pugtards/solos. I will just say your an idiot and not read my stance or what we do in those really bad groups we can all face.

My ignorance? Really? All you have just done is proven to everyone here that you do not know what CW was made for nor who it was made for. You claim to have been here very long and yet, ignorant as to who and what CW was made for. Let me inform you;

Russ Bullock, on 13 December 2014 - 10:55 AM, said:

Okay I have just a few minutes and I wanted to make a quick post about how the match making queues work in community warfare.


The whole concept is that the match maker and CW was definitely built primarily for Units and groups of 12. It still works for small groups and solo players but they can get left behind - we are working on ways to greatly improve the ability of small groups and solo players to find matches more on this at the end.

Now, do you understand what the word PRIMARILY means? And in NO place did I EVER say or imply CW was for Groups/Units ONLY, that is your hangup and all on you.

Good, glad to see you give up on this one game mode out of four because it does not personally cater to you. If your not able to deal with the extra difficulty, then you should just give up. Stick to your solo, LCD, underhive rush to middle to alpha gameplay.

Join your other solo players in complaining how badly you were stomped by other pugs/solos. Soon you and your solo pals can complain how badly the duo group rolfstomped your solo team. Soon, you and your solo buddies can complain how badly you were stomped dropping solo into the group Q and demand group queue is more supportive of solo play.

[Heart of Storm]

Basically agree with everything MischiefSC says, i play as a solo and in a group and my BIGGEST frustration is that I will do a 1500 damage, 7 kill average game (not amazing, but not bad either) and fine that over half my team has done less than 1000 damage, and half of those wont even have broken 500 damage.

THAT is why Pugs lose, you run bad mechs and dont even teamwork, then blame it on evil 12 mans

[Zuesacoatl]

TWIAFU, on 07 August 2015 - 03:27 AM, said:

If solo players are so numerous and so prevalent in game and CW, why are they less then half of all population? Why is it, if solo/casuals are so numerous, less then half of all players in Group Q are solo? Your over-inflated self value is showing.

Odd you claim that I farm pugtards/solos. I will just say your an idiot and not read my stance or what we do in those really bad groups we can all face.

My ignorance? Really? All you have just done is proven to everyone here that you do not know what CW was made for nor who it was made for. You claim to have been here very long and yet, ignorant as to who and what CW was made for. Let me inform you;



Now, do you understand what the word PRIMARILY means? And in NO place did I EVER say or imply CW was for Groups/Units ONLY, that is your hangup and all on you.

Good, glad to see you give up on this one game mode out of four because it does not personally cater to you. If your not able to deal with the extra difficulty, then you should just give up. Stick to your solo, LCD, underhive rush to middle to alpha gameplay.

Join your other solo players in complaining how badly you were stomped by other pugs/solos. Soon you and your solo pals can complain how badly the duo group rolfstomped your solo team. Soon, you and your solo buddies can complain how badly you were stomped dropping solo into the group Q and demand group queue is more supportive of solo play.

Your ignorance is showing again.....

Fist, if not for the solo drops, teams of 8-10 would have a harder time finding a match quicly. It is the solo that tends to fill the voids cause by smaller teams joining. So if you start losing more and more soloist, your queue starts to climb higher and higher in time waiting to drop, again, I was there when it was 12 mans vs 12 mans only, long queue times, lost plenty of good teams.

Second, you assume I am a bad player, with bad mechs, and do not coop with the team I am on. That has to be your hang up because that is not me. When I play, I play with the team, I call drops or listen when someone tries to call them. i want to win. My problem stems from the games when a good 12 goes against a ragtag team of solos and small groups and forgets the notion of sportsmanship and camps them. Sure, if that 12 is defending, their only option is to wipe out the opfor to the last mech, i know that, but if they are the attackers and ignore the omega for pug duckhunt instead, well, that tends to be a bit on the epeen growing unsportsman side for me. You may not agree with it, but I am not forcing you to. I stepped out of CW because of it, not because I am bad, but because when your team is at the mercy of a great 12 that has no tact, it tends to get annoying.

[gloowa]

Zuesacoatl, on 07 August 2015 - 04:46 AM, said:

Your ignorance is showing again.....

Fist, if not for the solo drops, teams of 8-10 would have a harder time finding a match quicly. It is the solo that tends to fill the voids cause by smaller teams joining. So if you start losing more and more soloist, your queue starts to climb higher and higher in time waiting to drop, again, I was there when it was 12 mans vs 12 mans only, long queue times, lost plenty of good teams.

Second, you assume I am a bad player, with bad mechs, and do not coop with the team I am on. That has to be your hang up because that is not me. When I play, I play with the team, I call drops or listen when someone tries to call them. i want to win. My problem stems from the games when a good 12 goes against a ragtag team of solos and small groups and forgets the notion of sportsmanship and camps them. Sure, if that 12 is defending, their only option is to wipe out the opfor to the last mech, i know that, but if they are the attackers and ignore the omega for pug duckhunt instead, well, that tends to be a bit on the epeen growing unsportsman side for me. You may not agree with it, but I am not forcing you to. I stepped out of CW because of it, not because I am bad, but because when your team is at the mercy of a great 12 that has no tact, it tends to get annoying.

So, what is your proposed fix here? ban 12 mans? ban groups at all? change human nature? For last 3 pages people were telling you that your primary weapon as a PUG is VOIP.

Let me tell you this another way. If your team does not coordinate with VOIP/TS/Mumble/Whatever and focus targets, even if every single PUG dropped 4xDragon-4N and the attacking 12 man would drop 4x XL Victors with AC2s, whey would still wipe the floor with PUGs and spawn camp them.

The fatal flaw i saw with PUG groups is the overwhelming fear. 75% of pugs will do everything in their power to have at least 5 friendlies between them and the enemy. The remaining 25% will rush 12 enemies with thier locusts or whatever. When i drop with 3 of my friends, and see pugs on my own team staying in the dropzone with ERLL builds... that's jsut sad. And then score screen cames up with our lance having ~30 kills out of 48 and every one of us doing 2k+ damage and some pugs not breaking 300 damge in four mechs...

It's not the groups, it's not the maps, it's the bads. With bad mechs, and terrible "tactics" that they were indoctrinated with while dropping non-CW. The non-CW solo drops train you to be bad. To be super scared of having your mech destroyed. To not take risks. To use that medium mech as a shield for your assault. To ignore objective and team, because i need to squirrel after that spider-cookie. To fight lights with lights. To not pop that UAV/Airstrike because C-Bills. To not engage and wait until enemy is damaged by someone else and then to step in for easy score. And most importantly, to use ****** mechs and still be able to perform, because other team had even ******er mechs.

The opposite of every single one of those points is required to succeed in CW. And that does not include team coordination (which is ~60-70% of the job), only pilot-level ****-ups.

Edited by gloowa, 07 August 2015 - 07:39 AM.