237 replies to this topic

[Mcgral18]

As you know, SHS are rather Terribad. There has been some improvement, mainly that trial mechs no longer have them, and you never need to use SHS in your MWO experience.


Perhaps it's time they're made usable and not a 1.5 mil tax for removal on robots.



There are a couple ways to go about it; a blanket dissipation buff that affects all SHS, or another option was to normalize engine heatsinks (which still hurts sub-250 engined robots).


Let's discuss buffing SHS to a blanket 0.15H/s dissipation for internal engine and external heatsinks. Yes, greater than the 0.14 DHS external, but worse than the 2.0 TrueDub internal.

On a mastered robot with a 250 engine:

• the DHS equipped mech has a 60 heat cap and 2.3H/s dissipation.
  
• the current SHS mech has a 48 heat cap and 1.15H/s dissipation. A full half, as you'd expect in the dissipation.
  
• the suggested iSHS mech would have a 54 heat cap and 1.725 H/s dissipation.

Similar enough heat cap, because there's the free 30 points, which is included in the 20% efficiency.



Dissipation is noticeably different, being 25% worse than the DHS mech as opposed to half.


Although, because the SHS values are greater than the PoorDubs, at one point they'll exceed the DHS in effectiveness, once you pay the tonnage. At what point?

• At 15 heatsinks, the DHS mech has a 68.4 heat cap and 3.105H/s dissipation
  
• The SHS mech would have 63 heat cap and 2.59H/s dissipation

So, SHS are still worse at 15 HS than their DHS counterparts.



At 20

• 20 DHS mech has a 76.8 heat cap and 3.91H/s dissipation
  
• 20 iSHS mech has a 72 heat cap and 3.45H/s dissipation

Much closer, but still worse.



Perhaps the excessive 30 heatsink mark? It's possible, but generally suicidal (XL Assault) or simply impractical (not enough guns).

• 30 DHS mech has a 93.6 heat capacity and 5.52H/s dissipation
  
• 30 iSHS mech has a 90 heat capacity and 5.175H/s dissipation

So, even with this excessive amount of heatinks, they're still worse than DHS.



This wouldn't change much in the grand scheme of things, best mechs won't be affected, but the new player experience would be improved, potentially saving new players 4.5 million Cbills (or just 3, if the one robot he wants to keep gets the DHS) for each set of mechs they level.

Also prevents 2 MLs from overheating you (sad little Spider 5V).


Downside? Stock mech matches would change for the worse, but quirks also had a big impact. Easy fix if PGI ever puts that check box in private servers.


Otherwise, they're still worse than DHS, but instead of half dissipation, they're only 25% worse in the most extreme scenario.




PGI still needs to fix the PoorDub issue, but NPE should probably take priority.

Edited by Mcgral18, 05 August 2015 - 01:30 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

I still think treating all engine heat sinks as truedubs regardless of whether you have SHS or DHS installed would go along way into making it a serious consideration rather than a tax. It's simple and still makes it so that SHS are used when your mech has more tonnage than crit space.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 05 August 2015 - 01:56 PM.

[Deathlike]

Mcgral18, on 05 August 2015 - 01:28 PM, said:

Also prevents 2 MLs from overheating you (sad little Spider 5V).

I don't remember any MW game until MWO where 2 ML would find a way to overheat a mech.

Can't have heat neutral mechs after all...

[Roadkill]

Mcgral18, on 05 August 2015 - 01:28 PM, said:

good stuff

WM Quicksilver, on 05 August 2015 - 01:54 PM, said:

more good stuff

Either approach would work. Both are power creep at a very low level, but I think they're both an acceptable amount of power creep.

Quicksilver's suggestion is probably easier to implement (they already have code for distinguising engine vs added for DHS) and also probably easier to explain, so I lean in that general direction.

[Mcgral18]

Roadkill, on 05 August 2015 - 02:11 PM, said:

Either approach would work. Both are power creep at a very low level, but I think they're both an acceptable amount of power creep.

Quicksilver's suggestion is probably easier to implement (they already have code for distinguising engine vs added for DHS) and also probably easier to explain, so I lean in that general direction.

The SHS blanket buff should just be changing the 1.0 and 0.1 to 1.5 and 0.15.

Both should be easy changes.

[Mawai]

Nice post. But I am not sure about your numbers.

DHS are up to 10 true doubles in the engine. Each with a 2.0 increase to cap and a 0.2 dissipation/s
SHS are 1.0 increase to cap and 0.1 diss/s.

Base heat is 30.

Heat limit for DHS is
30 + (internal heat sinks) * 2 + (external heat sinks) * 1.4
dissipation is internal heat sinks * 0.2 + external heat sinks * 0.14
Heat limit for SHS is 30 + number of heat sinks
dissipation is: number of heat sinks * 0.1

Your example for a 250 engine lists dissipation as 2.3 and 1.15 and I don't know where the 0.3 and 0.15 come from.

I think the heat caps for a 250 engine are 50 with 10 internal double heat sinks and 40 with singles ... while you list 60 and 48. So I am missing something with the numbers.

----------------

Other than that ... the problem with single heat sinks is that they were just as useless in Table Top (where the rules originate) as they are in MWO. It isn't surprising that MWO reflects the same imbalance ... Battletech is full of newer technology superceding the old stuff.

We can decide to try an change SHS to give them a niche role. It's not a big deal.

However, I would be more interested in a revamp of heat overall that included creating a role for single heat sinks. Perhaps adjusting heat caps, adding cumulative penalties of some sort for overheating before shutdown, and adjusting the dissipation.

[Mcgral18]

Mawai, on 05 August 2015 - 02:14 PM, said:

Nice post. But I am not sure about your numbers.

DHS are up to 10 true doubles in the engine. Each with a 2.0 increase to cap and a 0.2 dissipation/s
SHS are 1.0 increase to cap and 0.1 diss/s.

Base heat is 30.

Heat limit for DHS is
30 + (internal heat sinks) * 2 + (external heat sinks) * 1.4
dissipation is internal heat sinks * 0.2 + external heat sinks * 0.14
Heat limit for SHS is 30 + number of heat sinks
dissipation is: number of heat sinks * 0.1

Your example for a 250 engine lists dissipation as 2.3 and 1.15 and I don't know where the 0.3 and 0.15 come from.

I think the heat caps for a 250 engine are 50 with 10 internal double heat sinks and 40 with singles ... while you list 60 and 48. So I am missing something with the numbers.

Doubled basics, 20% and 15% boosts.

[Rizzelbizzeg]

I'd like if SHS were useful, that'd be neat!

However, they won't ever be. They're designed as a hard upgrade, the DHS tax is real. The upgrade to DHS is one of the balancing mechanics in the price of clan mechs vs is mechs. They'd have to cut down the clan mech prices, and pgi isn't keen on cutting any prices since people have paid real money and it would look like everyone got screwed who bought early.

Bummer

Edited by Rizzelbizzeg, 05 August 2015 - 02:20 PM.

[Deathlike]

Mcgral18, on 05 August 2015 - 02:17 PM, said:

Doubled basics, 20% and 15% boosts.

That's Heat Containment (10% base) and Cool Run (7.5%) respectively.

Edited by Deathlike, 05 August 2015 - 02:22 PM.

[EXO-Scorpion]

IMHO . . .
**** MAKE SINGLE HEAT SINKS MORE DURABLE vs Doubles****

Doubles ARE BETTER and should be in reguards to dis' away Heat vs Singles!

But, one simple meaningful Change PGI could do in reguards to Single and Double heat sinks are:

Give:
- Single heat sinks a HEALTH (HP) rating of 10 (or whatever number higher(+)
(older **** are built better "They dont make them like they used too!")

- Double heat sinks a HEALTH (HP) rating of 3 (or whatever number lower(-)
(they are also more EASY to break/fail)


Thus, Some mechs built using STD engines and Single heat sinks, could Brawl better, lasting longer? (least in a One v One fight)

Edited by ExoScorpion650R, 05 August 2015 - 02:28 PM.

[Deathlike]

ExoScorpion650R, on 05 August 2015 - 02:23 PM, said:

IMHO . . . screw all you guys talking about heat dis' on Singles or Double heat sinks!


Doubles ARE BETTER and should be in reguards to dis' away Heat vs Singles!

But, one simple meaningful Change PGI could do in reguards to Single and Double heat sinks are:

Give:
- Single heat sinks a HEALTH (HP) rating of 10 (or whateve number higher)
(older **** are built better "They dont make them like they used too!")

- Double heat sinks a HEALTH (HP) rating of 3 (or whatever number lower)
(not only do they take up 3 crit slots per/DHS, but they are also more EASY to break/fail)


Thus, Some mechs built using STD engines and Single heat sinks, could Brawl better, lasting longer? (least in a One v One fight)

Simple question:
Why would you make the DHS more fragile?

Considering that the only time "health" is relevant once external armor is removed and that MGs and LBX are still bad weapons since they are dependent on crits and such, why would you make them as fragile as ECM?

I can understand the Magic Jesus Box being weaker "for balance", but since when was DHS OP?

Also, there's Clan DHS and IS DHS to consider, which your suggestion still would favor Clan DHS (more slots = easier to crit, screwing the IS more).

Edited by Deathlike, 05 August 2015 - 02:26 PM.

[Roadkill]

Mcgral18, on 05 August 2015 - 02:13 PM, said:

The SHS blanket buff should just be changing the 1.0 and 0.1 to 1.5 and 0.15.

Both should be easy changes.

Good point.

I do still think it would be easier to explain to new players, though, if Singles weren't better than Doubles (external).

"All heat sinks hidden in your engine are worth 2.0. Added single heat sinks are worth 1.0 while added double heat sinks are worth 1.4."

You still have to explain why "double" equals "1.4" but that's true in either case.

[Deathlike]

Roadkill, on 05 August 2015 - 02:26 PM, said:

Good point.

I do still think it would be easier to explain to new players, though, if Singles weren't better than Doubles (external).

"All heat sinks hidden in your engine are worth 2.0. Added single heat sinks are worth 1.0 while added double heat sinks are worth 1.4."

You still have to explain why "double" equals "1.4" but that's true in either case.

"Reasons" or "3 Second Jenner"

Great answers AMIRITE?

[NocturnalBeast]

Single HS do not need to be buffed, if PGI wants to make them useful, then all they need is to make a 3025 game mode (no Clans or Lostech).

[M4rtyr]

Bah, people should stop trying to change equipment to work in broken mechanics...

The heat system needs to be fixed period.

When I found that firing 2 UAC5's with no movement or any other heat generation creates a neutral heat profile for a stock engine and SHS's its quite obviously broken. That should be a positive profile, thats half the balancing behind ballistics, minimal heat so you can still fight and lower your heat level if need be.

So no don't change either heat sinks... fix the heat mechanic as a whole then rebalance, as would likely be required.
But they won't, *sigh*.

[NocturnalBeast]

M4rtyr, on 05 August 2015 - 02:34 PM, said:

Bah, people should stop trying to change equipment to work in broken mechanics...

The heat system needs to be fixed period.

When I found that firing 2 UAC5's with no movement or any other heat generation creates a neutral heat profile for a stock engine and SHS's its quite obviously broken. That should be a positive profile, thats half the balancing behind ballistics, minimal heat so you can still fight and lower your heat level if need be.

So no don't change either heat sinks... fix the heat mechanic as a whole then rebalance, as would likely be required.
But they won't, *sigh*.

The only reason the heat scale is the way it is, is to increase TTK so people don't cry about it (some still do).

[NocturnalBeast]

It is supposed to be 3052 in MWO, DHS are modern technology (for 3052), the only reason you would not want to upgrade would be if you could not afford to. Most of us mechwarriors are pretty damned rich, so upgrading to DHS is just a small speed bump on the road to optimization.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Redo the heat system altogether, and include a SHS buff in the rework.

For instance, consider SHS at -0.3 h/s and DHS at -0.5 h/s, with a cap starting at 20 and increasing by 1 for every HS, regardless of type. The idea here is that DHS are a weight saver for h/s mechs, while SHS are both a space saver and a way to increase your heat cap for builds that need a bit more wiggle room for a particular weapon set.

A stock AWS-8Q runs 28 SHS, for a cap of 48, with total dissipation of -8.4 h/s. A volley of 3 PPCs generates 30 heat, which gets dumped in 3.57s. With Ghost Heat, this gets bumped up to 42.60 for all three, meaning you come very close to the cap of 48, and cannot dissipate all the heat from the shot before the PPCs' cooldown period ends (you'd have 5.4 heat remaining, plus whatever you generate from other sources, like running). You could probably fire two full volleys on the cooldown without shutting down, but it'd be risky, especially on a hot map or if there are Flamers in the field.

A stock AWS-9M runs 20 DHS, for a lower cap of 40, with a total dissipation of -10 h/s. A volley of 3 ERPPCs generates 45 heat base, or 63.90 with Ghost Heat, so you simply cannot fire all three at once without shutting down. However, you can chain fire them for quite a long time before shutting down, since you'd avoid the heat tax altogether. You could also do 2 - 1 - 2 - 1 firing patterns pretty effectively.

A stock Warhawk Prime has similar heat performance to the stock 9M, but generates a lot more heat. It'd likewise be unable to alpha without shutting down, but would be able to alternate firing each arm as paired cERPPCs for a while, or chain fire, before having to pause to cool down.

Combine the above with heat penalties that scale based on how hot you are running as a % of your heat cap and I think this game would see some solid improvements.

You could also set the heat dissipation levels a bit lower if you increased the cooldowns of most weapons by 1-2 seconds.

[M4rtyr]

Ed Steele, on 05 August 2015 - 02:37 PM, said:

The only reason the heat scale is the way it is, is to increase TTK so people don't cry about it (some still do).

No it's broken beyond that.. It's one of the reason ballistics are less useful (outside the ever present Gauss) and why lasers are the top meta right now. Heat is broken.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

M4rtyr, on 05 August 2015 - 02:34 PM, said:

Bah, people should stop trying to change equipment to work in broken mechanics...

The heat system needs to be fixed period.

Any sort of heat system revamp is not going to change SHS being bad. Not sure why people keep thinking that fixing the heat system magically fixes the balance between SHS and DHS.