237 replies to this topic

[Almond Brown]

Corrado, on 06 August 2015 - 05:37 AM, said:

IMO this is the ONLY build that gets slightly better heat dissipation with SHS compared to DHS.

BadShee

Yup, roughly +3% and it runs an XL. At 40% it can be run on a STD engine with the same weapons. The one thing it can't do is benefit from a body of water (SHS CD bonus in water) like the SHS unit can, when all the Stars align...

[Hotthedd]

xWiredx, on 06 August 2015 - 09:34 AM, said:

When I was still learning how to play and grinding really hard to get some new mechs in my hangar, I used SHS quite often. Couldn't yet afford DHS on anything. Didn't phase me, just meant I had to learn how to manage heat better. There are definitely some builds that are more than viable with SHS, too. They aren't as abysmally bad as you think. Sure, they're of limited effectiveness up to the first 10 included in the engine, but outside the engine they are simply a trade-off compared to DHS: 2 tons and 2 slots for true double dissipation (2 SHS), or 1 ton and 3 slots for 1.4x dissipation (DHS, and I think it's 1.4x, has it changed?).

I don't participate in stock mech mondays very often, but I do have some stock mechs and they're not terrible. They're not as effective, but in the hands of a decent pilot they're not an overbearing issue leading to instant death.

QFT

Also, what is the notion that everything has to be roughly equal? I'm ALL FOR tough choices in this game, and MW:O has that. However, there also needs to be progression, and upgrades do that. There also needs to be a C-bill sink in the economy, and straight upgrades are the only way besides consumables to have that.

[Jetfire]

The easy fix is the make SHS and DHS fundamentally different. DHS operate with a fixed heat cap but more enable faster cooling. SHS increase the cap and the cool rate but by half what the DHS provide.

First all engines carry 10 min internal HS with slots above 250.

DHS Cap: 40 always (might need to be lower, 30 maybe)
DHS HPS: 2 on all DHS

SHS Cap: 40+external HS
SHS HPS: 1 on all SHS

Add in HP tweaks so singles are more durable and you have an interesting mechanic. DHS better for extended engagements. SHS better for high alpha pushes.

[Mcgral18]

Hotthedd, on 06 August 2015 - 09:44 AM, said:

QFT

Also, what is the notion that everything has to be roughly equal? I'm ALL FOR tough choices in this game, and MW:O has that. However, there also needs to be progression, and upgrades do that. There also needs to be a C-bill sink in the economy, and straight upgrades are the only way besides consumables to have that.

DHS would still be a straight upgrade, simply to a lesser degree.

You'd still need to pay the 1.5 mil to get the same effectiveness you do now.

Jetfire, on 06 August 2015 - 09:44 AM, said:

The easy fix is the make SHS and DHS fundamentally different. DHS operate with a fixed heat cap but more enable faster cooling. SHS increase the cap and the cool rate but by half what the DHS provide.

First all engines carry 10 min internal HS with slots above 250.

DHS Cap: 40 always (might need to be lower, 30 maybe)
DHS HPS: 2 on all DHS

SHS Cap: 40+external HS
SHS HPS: 1 on all SHS

Add in HP tweaks so singles are more durable and you have an interesting mechanic. DHS better for extended engagements. SHS better for high alpha pushes.

-<Module faction="Clan,InnerSphere" CType="CHeatSinkStats" name="HeatSink_MkI" id="3000">
<ModuleStats health="10" tons="1" slots="1"/>
<Loc iconTag="StoreIcons\HeatSink_MkI.dds" descTag="@HeatSink_MkI_desc" nameTag="@HeatSink_MkI"/>
<HeatSinkStats heatbase="-1.0" engineCooling="0.1" cooling="0.1"/>

-<EffectList>
<Effect name="SteamEffect" asset="mech_effects.heatsinks.steam_a"/>
</EffectList>
<Audio OnDestroyedDialogue="BB_Mech_HeatSink_Destroyed"/>
</Module>

-<Module faction="InnerSphere" CType="CHeatSinkStats" name="DoubleHeatSink_MkI" id="3001">
<ModuleStats health="10" tons="1" slots="3"/>
<Loc iconTag="StoreIcons\DoubleHeatSink_MkI.dds" descTag="@DoubleHeatSink_MkI_desc" nameTag="@DoubleHeatSink_MkI"/>
<HeatSinkStats heatbase="-1.4" engineCooling="0.2" cooling="0.14"/>

I guess both suggestions are simple variable edits. Not sure why heatbase is a negative value, but seems to be the heat cap.

[Almond Brown]

Mcgral18, on 06 August 2015 - 09:25 AM, said:

You mean, where DHS are still always superior? Where you can choose to spend 20 extra tons for extra dissipation?

It just bridges the gap, DHS would still be the much better choice, because the 10 TrueDubs.

Quote

DHS would still be the much better choice,

not sure why you would write that after trying to make one not such a better choice... Sorry, I may have missed your OP's original intent...

I will still take the "much better choice", yet again, thanks"

[Mcgral18]

Almond Brown, on 06 August 2015 - 09:57 AM, said:

not sure why you would write that after trying to make one not such a better choice... Sorry, I may have missed your OP's original intent...

I will still take the "much better choice", yet again, thanks"

Because SHS would be playable, and you wouldn't NEED to upgrade to DHS for 1.5 mil.


Better for the NPE, being only 25% worse instead of half as efficient. 25% isn't insignificant, but certainly not on the same scale as it is now.



I'm not sure what you're getting at.

Edited by Mcgral18, 06 August 2015 - 10:02 AM.

[Hans Von Lohman]

Single heat sinks should work better than double heat sinks when not in combat. Just say that they work completely differently and open and close armored shutters that double heat sinks, a different technology, do not use.

Yes, the game knows when you are or are not in combat. This was recently removed, but when you fire your weapons or are hit by weapons the game used to make 1-legged mechs drop to only 10% speed. That was taken out a patch or two ago, but that code that determines that could be used to affect single heat sinks.

To be in the "out of combat" state, you just have to not shoot or be hit for about 5 seconds I think, and then you get a free, low level, and constant "coolant flush" like effect.

Edited by Hans Von Lohman, 06 August 2015 - 11:08 AM.

[MikeBend]

xWiredx, on 06 August 2015 - 09:34 AM, said:

I don't participate in stock mech mondays very often, but I do have some stock mechs and they're not terrible. They're not as effective, but in the hands of a decent pilot they're not an overbearing issue leading to instant death.

I recommend stock Panther-10K Feel the power of SHS in the ER PPC armed 64 kph underarmoured light mech.
On topic: Seriously, why arent we allowed to use both SHS and DHS in our builds?

[M4rtyr]

MikeBend, on 06 August 2015 - 12:00 PM, said:

I recommend stock Panther-10K Feel the power of SHS in the ER PPC armed 64 kph underarmoured light mech.
On topic: Seriously, why arent we allowed to use both SHS and DHS in our builds?

Because the game design was build around the concept of you can only use the HS type that you had in your engine. The reason for that is because both singles and doubles have their place... which everyone is ignoring in this thread and just wants to make it so SHS are good enough they don't need to use doubles

If the heat system worked right then SHS would be perfectly fine for ballistic and some missile builds, but not work with lasers. if you want to use the smaller lighter laser weapons at max effectiveness you would need to get DHS, the cost of which is irrelevant in MWO, so just comes down to size and tonnage/heat disipation.

[Mcgral18]

MikeBend, on 06 August 2015 - 12:00 PM, said:

I recommend stock Panther-10K Feel the power of SHS in the ER PPC armed 64 kph underarmoured light mech.
On topic: Seriously, why arent we allowed to use both SHS and DHS in our builds?

Because how the TT game worked. One or the other.

Hans Von Lohman, on 06 August 2015 - 11:03 AM, said:

Single heat sinks should work better than double heat sinks when not in combat. Just say that they work completely differently and open and close armored shutters that double heat sinks, a different technology, do not use.

Yes, the game knows when you are or are not in combat. This was recently removed, but when you fire your weapons or are hit by weapons the game used to make 1-legged mechs drop to only 10% speed. That was taken out a patch or two ago, but that code that determines that could be used to affect single heat sinks.

To be in the "out of combat" state, you just have to not shoot or be hit for about 5 seconds I think, and then you get a free, low level, and constant "coolant flush" like effect.

Not a fan of this one.


The capacity VS dissipation one would be pretty easy to implement as well, after looking at the variables.

A 30 heat cap allows for 5 ERMLs to be fired, but that would put you just below 100%. 2LPLs and a ERML is pretty much the cap. BUT, Dual Gauss+the above wouldn't be affected.


I like the idea, but not sure the change would be great for the game. Not touching DHS won't change the game very much.


1.5 might not be the best number, mixing and matching Engine (hurts the same as the PoorDub issue) and external Single heatsinks is also an option, as the variable is open.

Normalizing engine heatsinks is an option.

[Pjwned]

Almond Brown, on 06 August 2015 - 09:26 AM, said:

OK, so we have now been given "viable" SHS's. Wonderful , now how much would the "upgrade" to the now minimally better DHS's be set at? Because for them to stay at their current "upgrade" price would be stupid, obviously...

I don't know, cut the price by 2/3 and make it 500,000 c-bills? I didn't exactly consider that much because a) it's not really important and b) PGI seems to like the cost of upgrades the way they are. Even if nothing changed in regards to the upgrade price with SHS actually being viable, it would still be a hell of a lot better than it is now and would not cause any real issues, although I would like it to cost less money to upgrade.

xWiredx, on 06 August 2015 - 09:34 AM, said:

When I was still learning how to play and grinding really hard to get some new mechs in my hangar, I used SHS quite often. Couldn't yet afford DHS on anything. Didn't phase me, just meant I had to learn how to manage heat better. There are definitely some builds that are more than viable with SHS, too. They aren't as abysmally bad as you think. Sure, they're of limited effectiveness up to the first 10 included in the engine, but outside the engine they are simply a trade-off compared to DHS: 2 tons and 2 slots for true double dissipation (2 SHS), or 1 ton and 3 slots for 1.4x dissipation (DHS, and I think it's 1.4x, has it changed?).

I don't participate in stock mech mondays very often, but I do have some stock mechs and they're not terrible. They're not as effective, but in the hands of a decent pilot they're not an overbearing issue leading to instant death.

I'm pretty sure that missing 10 tons worth of heatsinks is a pretty big deal on pretty much any mech except dual gauss, which means that SHS actually is pretty terrible, but aside from that it still means SHS only exists as a tax to switch to DHS and if you were trying to refute that argument there (I don't know if you were) then it didn't work.

Hotthedd, on 06 August 2015 - 09:44 AM, said:

QFT

Also, what is the notion that everything has to be roughly equal? I'm ALL FOR tough choices in this game, and MW:O has that. However, there also needs to be progression, and upgrades do that. There also needs to be a C-bill sink in the economy, and straight upgrades are the only way besides consumables to have that.

Why does the game need progression, especially when you can instead make both upgrades be viable options by buffing the one that's never used ever unless you literally cannot afford the superior choice?

Mcgral18, on 06 August 2015 - 10:02 AM, said:

Because SHS would be playable, and you wouldn't NEED to upgrade to DHS for 1.5 mil.


Better for the NPE, being only 25% worse instead of half as efficient. 25% isn't insignificant, but certainly not on the same scale as it is now.



I'm not sure what you're getting at.

Normalizing engine heatsinks would be better because then SHS would have a place on mechs that have plenty of tonnage but not enough crit space for DHS. It would still mean that DHS is superior most of the time, but with normalized engine heatsinks SHS would actually have a purpose existing instead of being complete garbage.

M4rtyr, on 06 August 2015 - 12:06 PM, said:

If the heat system worked right then SHS would be perfectly fine for ballistic and some missile builds, but not work with lasers. if you want to use the smaller lighter laser weapons at max effectiveness you would need to get DHS, the cost of which is irrelevant in MWO, so just comes down to size and tonnage/heat disipation.

That is still wrong by the way due to missing 10 tons worth of heatsinks.

Edited by Pjwned, 06 August 2015 - 11:43 PM.

[Hans Von Lohman]

Maybe have single heat sinks come with 2 free coolant flushes then?

By that I mean more than your consumable ones. If you pack a Colant flush 9x9 and a 6x6, then you would have 4 coolant flushes to use in the game.

You can make it work, but it adds pilot work load as you are coolant flushing. After your coolant is all used up, you turn into a gimped mech with limited DPS.

Edited by Hans Von Lohman, 06 August 2015 - 10:56 PM.

[NocturnalBeast]

Hans Von Lohman, on 06 August 2015 - 10:51 PM, said:

Maybe have single heat sinks come with 2 free coolant flushes then?

By that I mean more than your consumable ones. If you pack a Colant flush 9x9 and a 6x6, then you would have 4 coolant flushes to use in the game.

You can make it work, but it adds pilot work load as you are coolant flushing. After your coolant is all used up, you turn into a gimped mech with limited DPS.

Damnit, people, just save your cbills and upgrade to DHS. Not everything in the game has to be "viable" or "Balanced". Again, go play chess if you want balanced.

[Pjwned]

Ed Steele, on 06 August 2015 - 11:01 PM, said:

Damnit, people, just save your cbills and upgrade to DHS. Not everything in the game has to be "viable" or "Balanced". Again, go play chess if you want balanced.

The only reasons to leave something unbalanced are 1. incompetence and 2. laziness, and neither of those are valid excuses.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Mcgral18, on 06 August 2015 - 09:53 AM, said:

Not sure why heatbase is a negative value, but seems to be the heat cap.

Heat base has to do with resting heat, since many times even standing still you have above 0% depending on the heat efficiency of the map. All that value does is help decrease that per heat sink. At least that has always been my assumption.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 06 August 2015 - 11:19 PM.

[Mcgral18]

WM Quicksilver, on 06 August 2015 - 11:19 PM, said:

Heat base has to do with resting heat, since many times even standing still you have above 0% depending on the heat efficiency of the map. All that value does is help decrease that per heat sink. At least that has always been my assumption.

I've looked a few times, but never found the heat stats for maps. They have a given temperature, but not sure how that's applied.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

one small step for SHS, one giant leap n' thanks to Neil Armstrong?

[Destoroyah]

I agree the first 10 HS regardless if they are double or single should be automatically 2.0s.
To make singles useful I think removing the heatsink upgrade and allowing mechs to equip both double and singles would see singles used in cirmcumstances of having the tonnage but not the space for doubles.

[Kaeb Odellas]

I want to see:

All Engine heatsinks: +1.5 cap, +0.15 dissipation
All external DHS: +0.2 dissipation, no heat cap
All external SHS: +0.1 dissipation, +0.1 dissipation

Also, can we kill the 10 heatsink minimum requirement already? All it does is hurt light mechs that don't need the cooling.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mcgral18, on 05 August 2015 - 01:28 PM, said:

As you know, SHS are rather Terribad. There has been some improvement, mainly that trial mechs no longer have them, and you never need to use SHS in your MWO experience.


Perhaps it's time they're made usable and not a 1.5 mil tax for removal on robots.

Nope.
Seriously, why do they need to be made better? They are what they are.

Here is the gist. We are Mercs. The weapons of destruction we have are either family owned or bought black market or military surplus.

Are we going to be able to have the best money can buy from the word go?

Double Sinks are supposed to be twice as good as single.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 07 August 2015 - 01:55 AM.