237 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 10 August 2015 - 09:56 AM, said:

the amish still drive their horse and buggies around.

so maybe theres amish mechwarriors that think double heatsinks are the devil and only use single heatsinks.

3025 purists are the BT equivalent of the Amish?

[Almond Brown]

Joseph Mallan, on 07 August 2015 - 08:45 AM, said:

dubs only require a short grind to earn. 1.5 Mill is not a huge amount. And less and less Mechs will come with singles as we move on. So problem is not a real problem.

Are there even any Trial Mechs left that have SHS's anymore? The current NP's and their E's should be quite familiar with the difference between a SHS and DHS.

Edited by Almond Brown, 10 August 2015 - 09:58 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Lugh, on 10 August 2015 - 09:44 AM, said:

Don't need singles, doubles do it better.

Like I mentioned earlier, there are some builds that need it because they don't have the required crit space for the mandatory external heat sinks if they were forced to run DHS. Again rare, but it does exist.

[Khobai]

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3025 purists are the BT equivalent of the Amish?

Clearly we need an amish server where you can only use 3025 tech.

[Almond Brown]

FupDup, on 07 August 2015 - 10:30 AM, said:

Last time I heard, Call of Duty actually does have a progression system where the player levels up to unlock new guns, which might be better than their previous guns...So in other words, the progression system that you're asking for is a system that Call of Duty has.

By sharing a system with Call of Duty, we therefore make this game more SIMILAR to Call of Duty, not more different than it.

I just sank your battleship. #ggclose #gitrekt #nore

And what happens to those weapons or systems that get "progressed" past? Sold? or just considered "useless" junk in your inventory that the game forces you to pay for to get to the really "good" stuff.

Roadkill, on 07 August 2015 - 10:36 AM, said:

20+ games using SHS so that you can afford to buy a mandatory upgrade isn't going to sit well when this game launches on Steam.

You can be as dismissive as you want, but it only proves how elitist you are. The NPE in this game is terrible, and the 1.5 million c-bills required to upgrade to DHS is part of why it's so terrible.

SHS need to be viable. Either that or they need to stop selling Mechs that come with SHS.

I will ask again. How many Trials are left now that have SHS's? So even the newest NP and their E will be in a DHS based Mech.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Almond Brown, on 10 August 2015 - 10:16 AM, said:

I will ask again. How many Trials are left now that have SHS's? So even the newest NP and their E will be in a DHS based Mech.

Until they buy their own mech and immediately play with it, because one would think that you wouldn't have to adjust a stock loadout much to be effective. The only problem is that couldn't be further from the truth.

I like that trials are more functional, but that still doesn't mean the NPE is completely fixed.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 10 August 2015 - 10:24 AM.

[Roadkill]

WM Quicksilver, on 10 August 2015 - 10:23 AM, said:

Until they buy their own mech and immediately play with it, because one would think that you wouldn't have to adjust a stock loadout much to be effective. The only problem is that couldn't be further from the truth.

I like that trials are more functional, but that still doesn't mean the NPE is completely fixed.

This, exactly.

In fact it's almost worse that the Champion Trials already have DHS installed, because when some random new player tries the game and likes it, then goes out and buys their first Mech only to discover that it's even worse than the Trial Mech they were using, they're not going to be pleased.

Most gamers understand that Trial Mechs/toons/guns/whatever are "beginner" level and not all that great. But to then go out and buy something that they assume will be better - and in most games it would be - only to find out it's actually much worse?

Yeah, that's a great NPE.

[Almond Brown]

AssaultPig, on 07 August 2015 - 11:11 AM, said:

The big thing is the engine heatsinks; if they were equivalent for DHS/SHS mechs there'd be at least some argument in favor of using SHS on some mechs.

The stuff about hewing to the TT rules is really dumb. This is a real time game where we aim for ourselves; you are never going to be able to 'simulate' turn based gameplay and dice rolling in that environment.

So what your saying is that for an additional $1.5 million C-bills, I can only carry as many external DHS's that my Mech can handle and only as 1.4's per DHS outside the engine?

Or are you charging say $750,000 C-Bills to those NP's for those 2.0 rated SHS in their engine compartments? If not, then that is crazy talk.

[Almond Brown]

Roadkill, on 10 August 2015 - 10:27 AM, said:

This, exactly.

In fact it's almost worse that the Champion Trials already have DHS installed, because when some random new player tries the game and likes it, then goes out and buys their first Mech only to discover that it's even worse than the Trial Mech they were using, they're not going to be pleased.

Most gamers understand that Trial Mechs/toons/guns/whatever are "beginner" level and not all that great. But to then go out and buy something that they assume will be better - and in most games it would be - only to find out it's actually much worse?

Yeah, that's a great NPE.

Boys it must suck to be PGI. Everyone QQ'd and whined that Champ\Trials sucked with SHS's and no ES and now your saying it is worse that those Mechs now have DHS's and most ES already installed.

Do you realize how ******* stupid that sounds.

They are worse with upgrades? Then why did "everyone" whine that the sucked without then?

How many Stock Mechs did you drive for weeks before upgrading at least the weapons or something? Not very many would be a good guess.

[Lugh]

Khobai, on 10 August 2015 - 09:56 AM, said:

the amish still drive their horse and buggies around.

so maybe theres amish mechwarriors that think double heatsinks are the devil and only use single heatsinks.

There are:
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Lostech

Holy Shroud

An aggravating element was ComStar, who evolved into a mystical, pseudo-religious order. They pursued a secret agenda and actively sought to quell technological rediscoveries and advancements in the Successor States, because they felt they alone should have control over advanced technologies for their ultimate goal to guide mankind to the light. In this they went so far as to wage a clandestine war against all other factions' technology, culminating in Operation Holy Shroud, a series of murders and sabotage aimed at the brightest scientists and facilities outside of the order. There were numerous similar operations, including the Tripitz Affair and Operation Holy Shroud II, but ComStar was careful never to reveal their hand in any of these.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Almond Brown, on 10 August 2015 - 10:35 AM, said:

Boys it must suck to be PGI. Everyone QQ'd and whined that Champ\Trials sucked with SHS's and no ES and now your saying it is worse that those Mechs now have DHS's and most ES already installed.

You missed a key word in that statement. That word being "almost." Almost worse =/= actually worse.

Almond Brown, on 10 August 2015 - 10:35 AM, said:

How many Stock Mechs did you drive for weeks before upgrading at least the weapons or something? Not very many would be a good guess.

Depends on how much experience they have with lore or the franchise itself. I've seen some builds that are somehow worse than stock loadouts, the point is this game is really bad at informing players how to be a good labrat.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 10 August 2015 - 10:47 AM.

[Roadkill]

Almond Brown, on 10 August 2015 - 10:35 AM, said:

How many Stock Mechs did you drive for weeks before upgrading at least the weapons or something? Not very many would be a good guess.

Me? Very few. Because the Paulconomy™ wasn't in full effect when I was buying and leveling up Mechs purely on c-bills alone.

But now? *shudder* I buy Mech packs now because trying to buy Mechs and upgrade them with c-bills alone, even when using Premium time, is seriously bad.

That's why an auto-tax of 1.5 million c-bills for an essentially mandatory upgrade to DHS is such a bad NPE.

[Khobai]

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Paulconomy™

Yeah pretty much. You have to play a +30% cbill mech WITH premium just to get reasonable earnings...

[Pjwned]

Almond Brown, on 10 August 2015 - 10:28 AM, said:

So what your saying is that for an additional $1.5 million C-bills, I can only carry as many external DHS's that my Mech can handle and only as 1.4's per DHS outside the engine?

Yes? Those DHS still only weigh 1 ton while being more effective, so it does stand to reason that you pay some c-bills if you want to (read: are not immediately forced to) upgrade the heatsinks.

I won't complain if the cost of DHS is lower, but the cost of DHS over SHS with normalized engine heatsinks really doesn't matter that much.

Quote

Or are you charging say $750,000 C-Bills to those NP's for those 2.0 rated SHS in their engine compartments? If not, then that is crazy talk.

They already pay for the mechs that come with stock SHS, so no.

[Deathlike]

Just a reminder...

If you're arguing with an idiot, don't go down to his level... he's going to beat you with experience.

The fact that some people are "immune" to either logic or experience with the NPE surely can tell me how LARGE and DIVERSE this playerbase is.

Struggling to get friends here on the sheer grind for C-bills is the first turnoff this game provides. I understand other games have poorer NPE, but a MW game needs it more than most due to game mechanics. Picking up an RTS or FPS is easy enough once you've played at least a number of them. In MWO, you are contending with so many different things early on that it is hard enough to figure out where you want to go with your C-bills... let alone how to drive that mech properly.

Edited by Deathlike, 11 August 2015 - 04:29 PM.

[Sjorpha]

Sure the NPE is a part of the argument for better SHS, but for me it's not really about the cbills or NPE primarily.

I just want SHS to be viable, meaning there should be mechs and variants whose optimal builds are done with SHS instead of DHS.

Just like the stalker is best built with a standard engine, some mechs should be best built with single heatsinks, it's just a basic design principle for me. No brainer choices is boring, difficult choices is fun. Period.

It's fine if those builds are a minority, just like std engine builds are in the minority of comp builds now, as long as that minority is large enough to be seen on the battlefield reasonably often.

I don't see a problem with the upgrade still costing 1.5 mil, XL engines are vastly more expensive than standard and that's not a problem even though you sometimes want the standard.

Flamers and machine guns etc need to be viable competitive choices as well, it should apply to every piece of eqipment in the game, I want to see absolutely everything in actual use while playing.

Edited by Sjorpha, 11 August 2015 - 04:44 PM.

[VaudeVillain]

I only play 3025 tech, so I only use Single Heat Sinks and they do suck, especially if I have the same heat dissipation rating as someone with Double Heat Sinks. That said, I do have more than one account so I know the difference. If people would actually try and tweak their SHS 'Mechs, they would find they do a lot better than stock SHS 'Mechs. I would have a better KDR, but by the time I'm ready to finish the enemy 'Mech, I'm so overheated someone else just slips in and finishes them off after I took the other 'Mech down near to death.

Basically, I get less points because I walk slower, have less firepower, and have worse heat dissipation as someone with the same heat dissipation level but with DHS, so why shouldn't I ask for SHS to be improved?

Ask a bow hunter why they prefer to use a bow over a gun.

The reason I started playing with 3025 era tech and 'Mechs is because back when everyone was poptarting, the game became really boring. 3025 tech added another level of challenge.

As for the heat scale, it's roughly based of Solaris VII rules, so yes, firing 2 Medium Lasers can put some serious heat out there.

Edited by GaiDaigoji, 11 August 2015 - 07:32 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

WM Quicksilver, on 10 August 2015 - 10:23 AM, said:

Until they buy their own mech and immediately play with it, because one would think that you wouldn't have to adjust a stock loadout much to be effective. The only problem is that couldn't be further from the truth.

I like that trials are more functional, but that still doesn't mean the NPE is completely fixed.

I don't mod my mechs much. and switching from single to doubles isn't what I call a big change. Now changing an Energy boat Pult into a Ballistic nightmare (twin Gauss/AC20)... That is a big change in my eyes. You kinda changed the intended roll.