I don't think the thread's supposed to be about "Why does CW suck?"
I took it to mean "Why is CW not more interesting than TDM?"
And the answer, for me, is that it was interesting. Players and personalities made it interesting. Rivalries, big bads, e-justice, e-freedom, and the e-American way duking it out against our weeaboo overlords made it interesting. But the weeaboos won too hard and too often, and the e-heroes retreated back to their comfortable 1998 echo chambers, and now CW is largely TDM again.
2
When Will Cw Be Something
Started by Crockdaddy, Aug 05 2015 02:05 PM
86 replies to this topic
#22
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Posted 06 August 2015 - 09:04 AM
Units should be able to have jumpships that can go where ever they want within a certain distance of a controled planet... For a cost.
Some real time and energy needs to go into making an actual game board that gives unit leaders and faction leaders some real tactics and planning. Planets shouldn't flip in a few hours, but rather a few days, ensuring that a units movements have ample time to be countered.
Mercs should be hired by faction leaders. C-bills should flow from a living economy, not based on a defacto if/then. Want work large merc groups? Get hired. Good luck getting all the c-bills you need for a large merc corp. This would ensure smaller efficient units get contracts. More small efficient units fighting each other will result in more actual matches that have real loses or gains.
The possibilities are endless, something should be done, it can be done... I'd like to see it done.
Some real time and energy needs to go into making an actual game board that gives unit leaders and faction leaders some real tactics and planning. Planets shouldn't flip in a few hours, but rather a few days, ensuring that a units movements have ample time to be countered.
Mercs should be hired by faction leaders. C-bills should flow from a living economy, not based on a defacto if/then. Want work large merc groups? Get hired. Good luck getting all the c-bills you need for a large merc corp. This would ensure smaller efficient units get contracts. More small efficient units fighting each other will result in more actual matches that have real loses or gains.
The possibilities are endless, something should be done, it can be done... I'd like to see it done.
#23
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- Big Daddy
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Posted 06 August 2015 - 09:22 AM
Vlad Ward, on 06 August 2015 - 08:36 AM, said:
I don't think the thread's supposed to be about "Why does CW suck?"
I took it to mean "Why is CW not more interesting than TDM?"
And the answer, for me, is that it was interesting. Players and personalities made it interesting. Rivalries, big bads, e-justice, e-freedom, and the e-American way duking it out against our weeaboo overlords made it interesting. But the weeaboos won too hard and too often, and the e-heroes retreated back to their comfortable 1998 echo chambers, and now CW is largely TDM again.
I took it to mean "Why is CW not more interesting than TDM?"
And the answer, for me, is that it was interesting. Players and personalities made it interesting. Rivalries, big bads, e-justice, e-freedom, and the e-American way duking it out against our weeaboo overlords made it interesting. But the weeaboos won too hard and too often, and the e-heroes retreated back to their comfortable 1998 echo chambers, and now CW is largely TDM again.
Yeah I almost miss getting heated from reading some stupid self-righteous posts from certain people. The funny thing is I don't think I ever saw any of the more vocal ones in a match. I guess one of the most vocal ones quit the game because his faction that was so intent on beating HK ended up getting wrecked.
Conreg, on 06 August 2015 - 09:04 AM, said:
Units should be able to have jumpships that can go where ever they want within a certain distance of a controled planet... For a cost.
Some real time and energy needs to go into making an actual game board that gives unit leaders and faction leaders some real tactics and planning. Planets shouldn't flip in a few hours, but rather a few days, ensuring that a units movements have ample time to be countered.
Mercs should be hired by faction leaders. C-bills should flow from a living economy, not based on a defacto if/then. Want work large merc groups? Get hired. Good luck getting all the c-bills you need for a large merc corp. This would ensure smaller efficient units get contracts. More small efficient units fighting each other will result in more actual matches that have real loses or gains.
The possibilities are endless, something should be done, it can be done... I'd like to see it done.
Some real time and energy needs to go into making an actual game board that gives unit leaders and faction leaders some real tactics and planning. Planets shouldn't flip in a few hours, but rather a few days, ensuring that a units movements have ample time to be countered.
Mercs should be hired by faction leaders. C-bills should flow from a living economy, not based on a defacto if/then. Want work large merc groups? Get hired. Good luck getting all the c-bills you need for a large merc corp. This would ensure smaller efficient units get contracts. More small efficient units fighting each other will result in more actual matches that have real loses or gains.
The possibilities are endless, something should be done, it can be done... I'd like to see it done.
With how slow planets take to capture, I wonder if they should go back to the 24 hour planet cycle.
#24
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Posted 06 August 2015 - 10:41 AM
The biggest problem is that there is no motivation to git gud. Bragging rights doesn't motivate most people. As such you have almost everyone in cw finding out that there is absolutely no reason or motivation to work on git gud, as it has no real benefit.
combine that with the new ghost drop mechanic of weaponizing boredom plus the pug zapper system of ensuring your least coordinated and motivated players are the ones showing up against enemy attacks and, well, you come back to 'why bother'.
If Bragging rights motivates you cw has some appeal. The current cw population reflects that. Without more though you'll never have enough population to effectively balance and digest a handful of skilled units or even 1 big merc group.
combine that with the new ghost drop mechanic of weaponizing boredom plus the pug zapper system of ensuring your least coordinated and motivated players are the ones showing up against enemy attacks and, well, you come back to 'why bother'.
If Bragging rights motivates you cw has some appeal. The current cw population reflects that. Without more though you'll never have enough population to effectively balance and digest a handful of skilled units or even 1 big merc group.
#25
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Posted 06 August 2015 - 10:54 AM
Addendum -
I spent months trying to get 12 players who would show up to play together to focus on getting comp tier. Even cross unit; I offered to hire comp tier merc players to come in and help train them, whatever was needed to try and get a CW focused 12man together even if it was cross unit, just to get that level of performance coordinated and dropping regularly in cw. It would really help the faction as a whole and seed those skills in among the units.
Couldn't get 12. I got about 8 but their schedules didn't match up. That's it.
Not that there wasn't some very skilled and dedicated players but the motivation to do that effort for the (lack of) reward wasn't there.
Bragging rights doesn't cut it.
I spent months trying to get 12 players who would show up to play together to focus on getting comp tier. Even cross unit; I offered to hire comp tier merc players to come in and help train them, whatever was needed to try and get a CW focused 12man together even if it was cross unit, just to get that level of performance coordinated and dropping regularly in cw. It would really help the faction as a whole and seed those skills in among the units.
Couldn't get 12. I got about 8 but their schedules didn't match up. That's it.
Not that there wasn't some very skilled and dedicated players but the motivation to do that effort for the (lack of) reward wasn't there.
Bragging rights doesn't cut it.
#26
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Posted 06 August 2015 - 01:56 PM
MischiefSC, on 06 August 2015 - 10:54 AM, said:
Addendum -
I spent months trying to get 12 players who would show up to play together to focus on getting comp tier. Even cross unit; I offered to hire comp tier merc players to come in and help train them, whatever was needed to try and get a CW focused 12man together even if it was cross unit, just to get that level of performance coordinated and dropping regularly in cw. It would really help the faction as a whole and seed those skills in among the units.
Couldn't get 12. I got about 8 but their schedules didn't match up. That's it.
Not that there wasn't some very skilled and dedicated players but the motivation to do that effort for the (lack of) reward wasn't there.
Bragging rights doesn't cut it.
I spent months trying to get 12 players who would show up to play together to focus on getting comp tier. Even cross unit; I offered to hire comp tier merc players to come in and help train them, whatever was needed to try and get a CW focused 12man together even if it was cross unit, just to get that level of performance coordinated and dropping regularly in cw. It would really help the faction as a whole and seed those skills in among the units.
Couldn't get 12. I got about 8 but their schedules didn't match up. That's it.
Not that there wasn't some very skilled and dedicated players but the motivation to do that effort for the (lack of) reward wasn't there.
Bragging rights doesn't cut it.
That's rough. I know we've shared what we could with RJ recently and I think Crock and myself agree at least that RRB is a much better unit than they were back in January/February. If you get a chance to drop with them in CW I think you might be pleasantly surprised by some of the builds and coordination they're running these days.
Vlad Ward, on 06 August 2015 - 08:36 AM, said:
I don't think the thread's supposed to be about "Why does CW suck?"
I took it to mean "Why is CW not more interesting than TDM?"
And the answer, for me, is that it was interesting. Players and personalities made it interesting. Rivalries, big bads, e-justice, e-freedom, and the e-American way duking it out against our weeaboo overlords made it interesting. But the weeaboos won too hard and too often, and the e-heroes retreated back to their comfortable 1998 echo chambers, and now CW is largely TDM again.
I took it to mean "Why is CW not more interesting than TDM?"
And the answer, for me, is that it was interesting. Players and personalities made it interesting. Rivalries, big bads, e-justice, e-freedom, and the e-American way duking it out against our weeaboo overlords made it interesting. But the weeaboos won too hard and too often, and the e-heroes retreated back to their comfortable 1998 echo chambers, and now CW is largely TDM again.
It's a real shame. The reset did very little to help either, as everyone knows another reset will come and that did a lot to disincentivize people to care about the state of the map, or it did for most Kuritan units.
#27
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Posted 06 August 2015 - 02:05 PM
MischiefSC, on 06 August 2015 - 10:41 AM, said:
The biggest problem is that there is no motivation to git gud. Bragging rights doesn't motivate most people. As such you have almost everyone in cw finding out that there is absolutely no reason or motivation to work on git gud, as it has no real benefit.
combine that with the new ghost drop mechanic of weaponizing boredom plus the pug zapper system of ensuring your least coordinated and motivated players are the ones showing up against enemy attacks and, well, you come back to 'why bother'.
If Bragging rights motivates you cw has some appeal. The current cw population reflects that. Without more though you'll never have enough population to effectively balance and digest a handful of skilled units or even 1 big merc group.
combine that with the new ghost drop mechanic of weaponizing boredom plus the pug zapper system of ensuring your least coordinated and motivated players are the ones showing up against enemy attacks and, well, you come back to 'why bother'.
If Bragging rights motivates you cw has some appeal. The current cw population reflects that. Without more though you'll never have enough population to effectively balance and digest a handful of skilled units or even 1 big merc group.
Your notion of "weaponized boredom" is beautiful, I can't get over how applicable that is...
#28
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Posted 06 August 2015 - 02:09 PM
Gas Guzzler, on 06 August 2015 - 02:05 PM, said:
Your notion of "weaponized boredom" is beautiful, I can't get over how applicable that is...
I'm definitely going to steal that term.
#29
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Posted 06 August 2015 - 02:45 PM
I'll be honest - I haven't played mwo in months between dancing for ducats at work and playing other games. I do see that my elegantly coiffed cohorts are on point and engaged now. That is awesome, just reinstalled and spent an hour figuring out the new interface and where the **** all my modules were and will be flailing around in cw tonight.
End of the day though there needs to be more to the reason to win in cw than bragging rights. I don't mind map resets if there is more to winning than just tags and trash talk.
End of the day though there needs to be more to the reason to win in cw than bragging rights. I don't mind map resets if there is more to winning than just tags and trash talk.
#30
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Posted 06 August 2015 - 03:16 PM
The ghost cap system is weaponized boredom though. It absolutely is. The whole concept is that it discourages ghost capping by not being fun. Making someone ghost drop is a better defense than dropping against them as it frees up your time to go attack while making them absolutely waste theirs.
It's an incredibly terrible system for a game. The prior system was bad, this one is worse. While there may not be a 'great' option at least we can try to find something better than 'terrible'.
It's an incredibly terrible system for a game. The prior system was bad, this one is worse. While there may not be a 'great' option at least we can try to find something better than 'terrible'.
#31
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Posted 06 August 2015 - 03:23 PM
MoonUnitBeta, on 05 August 2015 - 02:16 PM, said:
Neverrrrrr!
But when it is "something", it will still be competing against standard queue players/population. The idea that CW is for teams/hardcore is its biggest downfall.
Ideally, it should be replacing standard queue, so that the entire population is fighting towards something, rather than being continually divided… but that’s not happening with its current implementation (edit: and a 98% chance it won't be with future itterations too)
But when it is "something", it will still be competing against standard queue players/population. The idea that CW is for teams/hardcore is its biggest downfall.
Ideally, it should be replacing standard queue, so that the entire population is fighting towards something, rather than being continually divided… but that’s not happening with its current implementation (edit: and a 98% chance it won't be with future itterations too)
The day CW becomes the only mode of play is the day I stop playing MW:O, CW is terribly designed, terribly implemented and terribly boring.
Maybe if PGI gets someone with some talent and imagination involved and it morphs into something more along the lines of a real strategic Mechwarrior game it will be worth wasting time on, but it's nowhere NEAR there yet.
#32
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Posted 06 August 2015 - 04:16 PM
R Razor, on 06 August 2015 - 03:23 PM, said:
The day CW becomes the only mode of play is the day I stop playing MW:O, CW is terribly designed, terribly implemented and terribly boring.
Maybe if PGI gets someone with some talent and imagination involved and it morphs into something more along the lines of a real strategic Mechwarrior game it will be worth wasting time on, but it's nowhere NEAR there yet.
And I agree with you. Hence, "that's not happening with its current implementation" - just in case there was confusion with what I was getting to
.I have a 9 page word document (and growing) outlining what would basically be my dream mechwarrior game, and a solid replacement for both current version of CW and the phasing out of solo queue. It covers the introduction to in-game missions, the importance of objective based gameplay, in-map territorial control as opposed to a series of drop-matches. Conversion of planets to servers. Planes, tanks. The divine luxury of no wait times, implementation of resource collection and its usage. Repair and rearm. Salvage. In-game respawning and balance, and so on so forth. No more match time limit. Come and go into planets as you please. Be rewarded for the time spent playing.
It should cover all the issues we have today regarding community fragmentation and lackluster gameplay. It becomes obvious as to why I see standard queue becoming obsolete. It's basically a new game though, kind of following the footsteps of Planetside 2/MW:LL, but instead introduced into the Mechwarrior. Chances of THAT happening are about 0.012% though. It's fun to dream though.
How neat would it be to be in a 32v32 player map, kilometers wide, receive a hud notification about a contract looking for in-bound units to advance to nav point and carry out a mission. 8 people accept the contract, and the nav point is distributed to them. You meet up, carry out the mission. You get c-bills for completing the mission, and it has it's effects on you or the enemy, or both. Receive c-bills, xp, loyalty points...This happens Inside the
Missions can range from 2 man all the way up to an entire full scale "raid", where both teams accept the contract and carry out the battle. All without redropping, or leaving, or anything.
Edited by MoonUnitBeta, 06 August 2015 - 04:26 PM.
#33
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Posted 06 August 2015 - 04:32 PM
MoonUnitBeta, on 05 August 2015 - 02:16 PM, said:
Ideally, it should be replacing standard queue, so that the entire population is fighting towards something
Not gonna happen. If players have no choice but to play CW most of the players will quit MWO altogether.
#34
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Posted 06 August 2015 - 04:38 PM
Triordinant, on 06 August 2015 - 04:32 PM, said:
Not gonna happen. If players have no choice but to play CW most of the players will quit MWO altogether.
If you can give "purpose" to the matches, people would be more obliged to play it.
Of course, if it doesn't feel that way (many people are just grinding away), well.. there's not much anyone can do.
Purpose is the reason people keep doing something. Once purpose is removed.. well... it stops happening.
#35
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Posted 06 August 2015 - 04:43 PM
Deathlike, on 06 August 2015 - 04:38 PM, said:
If you can give "purpose" to the matches, people would be more obliged to play it.
Of course, if it doesn't feel that way (many people are just grinding away), well.. there's not much anyone can do.
Purpose is the reason people keep doing something. Once purpose is removed.. well... it stops happening.
#36
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Posted 06 August 2015 - 05:44 PM
Triordinant, on 06 August 2015 - 04:32 PM, said:
Not gonna happen. If players have no choice but to play CW most of the players will quit MWO altogether.
I did make it clear that I was talking about a CW that wasn't the one we currently have... didn't I?
Three times now people have quoted me, and didn't include the sentence following, ". . . but that’s not happening with its current implementation (edit: and a 98% chance it won't be with future itterations too)"
To paint a better picture of what exactly would be the CW that would phase out solo queue, see my post just above yours, it's the wall of text one.
Edited by MoonUnitBeta, 06 August 2015 - 05:49 PM.
#37
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Posted 06 August 2015 - 06:07 PM
MoonUnitBeta, on 06 August 2015 - 05:44 PM, said:
I did make it clear that I was talking about a CW that wasn't the one we currently have... didn't I?
Three times now people have quoted me, and didn't include the sentence following, ". . . but that’s not happening with its current implementation (edit: and a 98% chance it won't be with future itterations too)"
To paint a better picture of what exactly would be the CW that would phase out solo queue, see my post just above yours, it's the wall of text one.
Three times now people have quoted me, and didn't include the sentence following, ". . . but that’s not happening with its current implementation (edit: and a 98% chance it won't be with future itterations too)"
To paint a better picture of what exactly would be the CW that would phase out solo queue, see my post just above yours, it's the wall of text one.
What you described in the second post sounds good. Have to agree with the 0.012% chance of it happening, though.
#38
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Posted 06 August 2015 - 06:26 PM
What I like about CW:
1. You get some fluff where you dont mix tech. Clan vs IS straight up.
2. You can win/earn mc and mechbays.
What I don't like about CW:
1. I'm an IS solo player all the time...so basically I wait 30 minutes or more in the que to get curb stomped by organized teams using team speak while playing superior clan mechs. Every single time I play this happens 90% of the time. That's just what I get as a solo player.
2. Did I mention 30 minute que times or more....
3. Pugs have no chance versus organized teams and there is no seperation between the two.
4. Successfully attacking or defending a planet doesn't make any impact in the grand scheme at all. I mean as a pugger I rarely see success, but when I do win it doesn't seem to make a difference.
5. Regular match making feels exactly the same as CW so why wait in the ques unless there is a contest. No real incentive to play it, especially as a solo player. Unless of course MC or mechbays are obtainable by being a doormat for organized teams for X amount of time.
1. You get some fluff where you dont mix tech. Clan vs IS straight up.
2. You can win/earn mc and mechbays.
What I don't like about CW:
1. I'm an IS solo player all the time...so basically I wait 30 minutes or more in the que to get curb stomped by organized teams using team speak while playing superior clan mechs. Every single time I play this happens 90% of the time. That's just what I get as a solo player.
2. Did I mention 30 minute que times or more....
3. Pugs have no chance versus organized teams and there is no seperation between the two.
4. Successfully attacking or defending a planet doesn't make any impact in the grand scheme at all. I mean as a pugger I rarely see success, but when I do win it doesn't seem to make a difference.
5. Regular match making feels exactly the same as CW so why wait in the ques unless there is a contest. No real incentive to play it, especially as a solo player. Unless of course MC or mechbays are obtainable by being a doormat for organized teams for X amount of time.
#39
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Posted 06 August 2015 - 06:30 PM
Crockdaddy, on 05 August 2015 - 02:05 PM, said:
[color=#282828]When will CW be something other than another way to grind c-bills to get more mechs? [/color]
You just described this entire game.
With CW Beta 1, I don't notice a major change besides planets being easier to take. The players made CW fun.
CW Beta 2, we all burnt out after Tukayyid; Maybe we played too hard, or some of us thought "OK, Tukayyid's over, the planets have rolled back, all our efforts are gone. Time to play something else".
Long story short, I think most people stopped playing CW because most everyone else stopped playing CW. Well, that and playing with anything less than a 12-man is shooting yourself in the foot, and it's a nightmare to keep one together for any length of time without someone dipping out to "put the kids to bed / eat dinner" or whatever.
Even if you're making a 12-man, nobody wants to have to wait a half-hour between matches to do so.
#40
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Posted 06 August 2015 - 06:37 PM
Never.
CW is burdened with serious flaws:
1) Total lack of matchmaking, resulting in the idiocy of pitting random PUG's, perhaps in trial mechs, against full teams in meta-mechs. All it takes is a few pointless games like this to scare away most people from CW
2) This leads to point 2 - the games take too long to find and play. Which then produces a feedback loop with point 1. As the games take longer and longer to find, the fact that so many games are miserable experiences scares more people away... resulting in the remaining games taking even longer to find and so on.
3) Even if you do find a game AND don't get fed into a meat-grinder, the game play itself is rather underwhelming. You get respawns, which is amusing, but the "objective based combat" really isn't since CW these days is mostly just more death match, but now with funny turrets, dropships, and other things floating around. Heck, as far as I know, they still haven't fixed the idiotic fact that damage dealt to the "objectives" doesn't even count for your match score, so why bother? May as well play death-match!
With all of those problems, topped off with the "CW is for leet players - get lost noobs/casuals/PUGS!" attitude that has been in the air since CW was proposed, the game mode is already basically dead.
The only way to "fix" it at this point is to scrap it entirely and try something else - something that gives people a reason to play, regardless of skill level, vs. creating a dull, seal-clubbing wonderland for a small number of try-hards.
CW is burdened with serious flaws:
1) Total lack of matchmaking, resulting in the idiocy of pitting random PUG's, perhaps in trial mechs, against full teams in meta-mechs. All it takes is a few pointless games like this to scare away most people from CW
2) This leads to point 2 - the games take too long to find and play. Which then produces a feedback loop with point 1. As the games take longer and longer to find, the fact that so many games are miserable experiences scares more people away... resulting in the remaining games taking even longer to find and so on.
3) Even if you do find a game AND don't get fed into a meat-grinder, the game play itself is rather underwhelming. You get respawns, which is amusing, but the "objective based combat" really isn't since CW these days is mostly just more death match, but now with funny turrets, dropships, and other things floating around. Heck, as far as I know, they still haven't fixed the idiotic fact that damage dealt to the "objectives" doesn't even count for your match score, so why bother? May as well play death-match!
With all of those problems, topped off with the "CW is for leet players - get lost noobs/casuals/PUGS!" attitude that has been in the air since CW was proposed, the game mode is already basically dead.
The only way to "fix" it at this point is to scrap it entirely and try something else - something that gives people a reason to play, regardless of skill level, vs. creating a dull, seal-clubbing wonderland for a small number of try-hards.
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