1017 replies to this topic

[meteorol]

Armando, on 09 August 2015 - 02:46 AM, said:

As for the myth that there is no 12 man units out there, its a crock and a LIE. PGI say they only see 1% of 12 mans because they never gave 12 mans a way to face other 12 mans, hence... they CAN'T KNOW how many there are.

Fact is PGI is clueless about how many 12 mans there are because there is no way for 12 mans to face off, and there never has been, so there 'DATA" is BullSh!t.

There was a queue exclusively for 12 mans. PGI shut it down after like a year because no one was playing it. Literally no one.

[J0anna]

While the vision in the OP is incomplete, it has some ideas. IF we were to eliminate solos from CW, we would HAVE to limit group sizes. Or it simply won't work. For example:

1). 4 V 4 mode (scouting mode). Only get your first mech, and each group can have no more than one heavy or one assault mech. Use public que maps (smaller). Have to take and hold objectives.

2). 8 V 8 mode (Skirmish mode). You get your first two mechs, 120 ton weight limit. Simple rules most kills wins, also any group that retreats to dropships loses. Use current CW maps with gates open and turrets offline.

3). 12 V 12 mode (current CW).

You must be in a group of either 4, 8, or 12 people. You must setup your mech order ahead of time. You opt into which mode you want. Also, rewards increase each mode. The current CW rewards are doubled in the 4 V 4 mode, 2.5x in the 8 V 8 mode, and tripled in the 12 V 12 mode. Also a win in 4 V 4 counts as one quarter of a sector, 8 V 8 as one half a sector and 12 V 12 as a normal sector. Now you have reasons to fight in 12 man's or at least in the 12 man que.

If they had something like that, then you could push for no unaligned players, no solo's, and no trials. Also PGI needs to drop this "you don't make c-bills in CW" mentality. It is supposed to be "endgame", no other online game makes endgame less profitable than starter game.

[TWIAFU]

meteorol, on 09 August 2015 - 04:10 AM, said:

Would you mind quoting where i brought up the "lie"? I just said it would end pugs getting crushed by 12 because thats what HE said his idea would do. It was an answer directly related to HIS post.

meteorol, on 09 August 2015 - 01:17 AM, said:

Yeah, it ends pugs getting bashed by 12 mans by ending CW alltogether. It would instantly kill CW.
1/3 the Cbills for public queue would not only kill CW, it would kill this game.

Seriously, those are some of the worst ideas i have seen over the last few months.

By stating it ends it you further the misconception that it happens more then it does, and it happens only 1% of the time or less.

[Armando]

TWIAFU, on 09 August 2015 - 04:13 AM, said:

FALSE!

IF you were involved in CW, talked to those that play CW, communicated with Units, those Leaders, or even members, you would quickly learn that damage is not key to these players.

It is the one thing that solo players have been rallying against, wanting to be removed, and not be a factor in this queue.

TEAMWORK.

Damage is inconsequential if you play as a member of a team. Being a participating member of a team is hard for a great deal of participation trophy players. They cannot understand that for a person to win, the team must win first. They cannot put the whole ahead of themselves.

If you play as a member of a team in a teamwork focused queue, you are already ahead of the game. If you don't, well, you want the whole queue/game mode to change to suit yourself, as we have seen over and over.

Best way to improve and prosper in a teamwork/group based game queue is to take part in the team. A player will personally improve as they improve in team play.

Following orders is > damage / kills during a match to the drop command of any group worth the weight of mechs they bring to the field. The best scores a team can have across the board is EVEN numbers. Even numbers means the team presented as a unit and used focus fire AS A UNIT. That means when the call to push is made.....you save the drama for your Momma and PUSH AS A UNIT.

Edited by Armando, 09 August 2015 - 04:24 AM.

[TWIAFU]

meteorol, on 09 August 2015 - 04:16 AM, said:

There was a queue exclusively for 12 mans. PGI shut it down after like a year because no one was playing it. Literally no one.

Just like the 4 man.

Then the 8 man.

Why did we progress from small size to large?

If 12man were shut down, why do we have 12mans now in two different queues?

Why do we have a game mode designed specifically for 12mans if they were shut down?

Why is our max group size 12 if 12mans were shut down?

Besides all that,m yea, 12mans were shut down.

[MechB Kotare]

Unless PGI introduces 4v4s 5v5s 8v8s whatever v whatever ladders, CW will remain dead, and excluding solos from it will only make it worse. CSJ - Draconis combine corridor is already dead.

Unless they introduce more objectives, more PVE content, more reasons to capture specific map (economic, strategic, industrial values....) CW will be a ***** waste of time.

Now for few points.

CW already offers increased CBILL and EXP rewards, it is more than logical that people in trial mechs would rather play CW, so they can get rid of trial mechs as soon as possible.

EMP, Lords and other "game communities" you mentioned dont even play CW, they are simply not interested in it.

In my opinion its the faction jumping system that ruins most of my and other players' experience, because we have over populated units like 228 and MS that are jumping however they want, ignoring diplomacies of Clan and/or house loyalists hardcore players.

Solo players are actually those who keep CW at least partially alive, your argument of them destroying CW is invalid.

I dont see a reason why anyone should be forced to join a unit, in order to fully enjoy F2P game content. Joining a unit should be privilege not, not a law.

You are being unreasonable rage boy.

Edited by MechB Kotare, 09 August 2015 - 04:29 AM.

[Wildstreak]

New players I could understand wanting to keep them out.

[TWIAFU]

Armando, on 09 August 2015 - 04:22 AM, said:

Following orders is > damage / kills during a match to the drop command of any group worth the weight of mechs they bring to the field. The best scores a team can have across the board is EVEN numbers. Even numbers means the team presented as a unit and used focus fire AS A UNIT. That means when the call to push is made.....you save the drama for your Momma and PUSH AS A UNIT.

And then we have to deal with solo players telling us that DCs are selfish and should not be listened to because they are calling targets they have targetted.

Tried to explain to him that's what a DC does, but could not get past his disdain of teamwork.

Once people learn that Damage score is meaningless and it is Match Score that has value, maybe then. But you can see why so many are focused on Damage, it is the solo mentality of performance. Match Score is the value of teamwork and that is why that is ignored as it would show lack of teamwork and group play.

[meteorol]

TWIAFU, on 09 August 2015 - 04:23 AM, said:

Just like the 4 man.

Then the 8 man.

Why did we progress from small size to large?

If 12man were shut down, why do we have 12mans now in two different queues?

Why do we have a game mode designed specifically for 12mans if they were shut down?

Why is our max group size 12 if 12mans were shut down?

Besides all that,m yea, 12mans were shut down.

Dude, are you dense?

The 12 man only queue was shut down. Like a year (or even more) ago, there was a seperate queue for 12 mans. Seperate. 12 man vs. 12 man exclusively. Close to no one was playing it. Waiting times were unacceptable, and if you found an enemy team, you often had to drop against the same team all evening because there were only 2 using the queue. It was used so little that PGI decided to shut it down and bring 12 mans back to the group queue we now have.

The last "12man only" queue trainwrecked hard. If you make CW 12 man only, it will trainwreck just as hard. And trainwrecking CW harder than it is now is difficult, but making it 12 man only will accomplish that.

TWIAFU, on 09 August 2015 - 04:19 AM, said:

By stating it ends it you further the misconception that it happens more then it does, and it happens only 1% of the time or less.

Well, no i don't. The fact aside that it was a direct answer to the post i quoted, my post makes ZERO statement regarding the amount of times pugs are getting bashed by 12 mans. Literally zero. Not the slightest assumption regarding how often that happens. Nothing. Not even in the context of the post i quoted.
Stop reading things into posts.

Edited by meteorol, 09 August 2015 - 04:58 AM.

[Kin3ticX]

#1 CW isnt really ready to devote a bunch of time to. I think it was nice to get CW "as is" back in Dec-March but had we known we would be barebone featureless beyond August I think people would have been very very very unhappy with that (and are). So as far as that goes, its all on PGI and letting CW limp along screaming for morphine is also on PGI.

#2 Many of the frustrations voiced in dozens and dozens and dozens of threads may or may not be on target or well informed but the frustration is genuine. It shows in #pop.

#3 Git gud or leave doesn't work. Asking people to fix their dropdecks doesnt work. Asking people to join units doesn't work. Asking people to improve their units doesn't work. Pounding it into them until they adapt or quit over and over doesn't work.

#4, 10 factions is too many for what we have now. F the lore

#5 If you want to stop the seal clubbing, if you want challenging matches, the only way to do that is to add a MM. Solos either need to fight solos or fill in for 6-11 mans. 12 Solos vs 12 premades is STUPID See #3

#6 If we need a MM then PGI has to gut the map and zoom in on a corner or something. I'd say we only really can support 4-5 factions now and if you want a MM we could only support 2 factions. If CW improves then more factions can reactivated later.

#7 Solos are the only thing keeping CW limping along and they deserve credit for that. If Solos were locked out right now CW would be insta-dead.

Edited by Kin3ticX, 09 August 2015 - 04:44 AM.

[Davegt27]

Quote

So, you dont even play in the game mode and yet are perpetuating the 12man rolfstomp BS.

Wow.

Since you have a total lack of fact, here is one from PGI.

12man stomps only happen 1%, or less, of the time. Rest of the time it is PUGs, or this mythical 12man solo group, that are doing the pug farming. Your pug farming is done BY PUGs TO PUGs.

So, how do you PUGs want to be nerfed so you cannot farm PUGs since it is you doing it 99% of the time?

That’s the biggest bunch of boloney I think I have heard in awhile

You better start asking how they define a stomp

[meteorol]

Kin3ticX, on 09 August 2015 - 04:41 AM, said:

-Snip-

A reasonable post, refreshing. I would double like it if i could. Maybe i'll create a second account to like it one more time.

Edited by meteorol, 09 August 2015 - 05:01 AM.

[Armando]

Livewyr, on 09 August 2015 - 03:31 AM, said:

Unusual for Armando.

I don't think Solos should be entirely removed. (Some people are just that way.)
HOWEVER: There needs to be minimum requirements to get into Community Warfare.

4 Owned: ELITED Mechs of different chassis. (Faction appropriate)
10 Matches in the group queue. (Suck it up, buttercup)

I know....quite unusual for Armando.

People who know me well, will read this and wonder if it is really me. I am what most would call a 'chill' type of person, and firmly think that people should be able to play how people what to play. The IDEA that I, Armando, would ask PGI to MAKE solo players join a group in order to play CW is.....unusual.

Yet here I am....doing just that.

The stage is set for epic PvP end game....

...factions
...planets
...units

Make being a part of them (factions / units) and having them (planets) have VALUE. Give players a REASON to log onto their Faction / Unit hubs, reward them for doing so.

Reward Faction / Unit Drop Callers for leading their teams to success.
Reward Faction / Unit members for following their DC / Leaders to success.
Reward Faction / Unit members for taking and KEEPING planets.

Blizzard gave 40 people a reason to form up, work together, and have 'epic' times doing so. All PGI needs to do is give 12 people a chance to do the same. You know...that thing that MWO lacks....an End Game!

____________________________________

I also want to stress I am NOT suggesting that PGI get rid of solo play or solo players. IMHO one of the most enjoyable game modes is the solo drop que, and PGI has done a great job drawing me back to the solo que with the events they host for them. The solo que and events for solo ques are awesome and it is IMPORTANT that they continue.

That said, allowing solo players to drop in CW matches needs to stop for real multiplayer online PvP 'End Game' community warfare action to actually happen. Also, trial mechs are not end game, and have no place in CW...get rid of em.

Instead, I want PGI to give solo players a reason to not just participate in....but ENJOY...team based PvP End Game Community Warfare content. Give solo players a legit reason to join a faction / unit and participate in Community Warfare as part of a community. Make en an offer they wouldn't want to refuse even if they could, but they can't because its WORTH IT.

Edited by Armando, 09 August 2015 - 05:51 AM.

[Josef Koba]

I can't support OP's idea of essentially banning solo players from CW. I get his frustration. Practically, it makes little sense as there already aren't enough players to fill CW's roster; removing the solo "filler" (the fact that solos are filler is a subject I've discussed already) would only compound that problem resulting in even longer wait times. That being the case, CW is often a time sink for small groups and solo players.

That said, and despite the fact that I very rarely even drop in CW, I like having the option. I can't support an idea that would limit the player's options. I view CW as already quite self-limiting. Pilots who drop solo and/or in trial mechs will probably very quickly see that they're going to have some problems staying competitive. Now, sometimes I do quite well as a solo player - sometimes even better than members of competitive teams. Other times I do very poorly. Usually my production is commensurate with the end results of the team in general. If the majority of the team loses all four of their mechs quickly, chances are I'm not going to have the numbers I'd like to have, which means not only did I not contribute meaningfully (nor did anyone else) but I've wasted my time and could have dropped four or five or more times in the solo queue and made more money/experience. The CW experience as it stands already stands to encourage pilots to level their mechs in solo and join groups.

For me this is a non-issue. I own 179 mechs, most of which are maxed out. So I've no problem filling a CW drop deck. But I'll never join a unit, nor will I probably ever drop with more than three or maybe four other pilots. I used to drop as a two man, but the environment in even the group queue has become very prohibitive to success and I have a better time in solo. When I dabble in CW it's just that: dabbling. It's fun sometimes, but mostly frustrating. It's just not for me, overall. But other solo pilots might have a grand time. I see no reason they can't drop in their one maxed out chassis and three other trial mechs. Every military unit is going to have their rookies and replacements and non-performers. If they can't even drop solo they'll never know what they need to do to get better in CW. Most people want to get better. And some people, like me, are just antisocial introverts who don't really want to enlist in a unit and meet all the necessary requirements. It's unfortunate that others' playing experiences, they feel, are degraded because of that, but...as far as I see it solo pilots are probably the only way CW limps along as it does currently. A more emphatic message that they're not welcome will degrade the game experience for those hard core players even more, I think.

[Armando]

Josef Koba, on 09 August 2015 - 05:54 AM, said:

I can't support OP's idea of essentially banning solo players from CW. I get his frustration. Practically, it makes little sense as there already aren't enough players to fill CW's roster; removing the solo "filler" (the fact that solos are filler is a subject I've discussed already) would only compound that problem resulting in even longer wait times. That being the case, CW is often a time sink for small groups and solo players.

That said, and despite the fact that I very rarely even drop in CW, I like having the option. I can't support an idea that would limit the player's options. I view CW as already quite self-limiting. Pilots who drop solo and/or in trial mechs will probably very quickly see that they're going to have some problems staying competitive. Now, sometimes I do quite well as a solo player - sometimes even better than members of competitive teams. Other times I do very poorly. Usually my production is commensurate with the end results of the team in general. If the majority of the team loses all four of their mechs quickly, chances are I'm not going to have the numbers I'd like to have, which means not only did I not contribute meaningfully (nor did anyone else) but I've wasted my time and could have dropped four or five or more times in the solo queue and made more money/experience. The CW experience as it stands already stands to encourage pilots to level their mechs in solo and join groups.

For me this is a non-issue. I own 179 mechs, most of which are maxed out. So I've no problem filling a CW drop deck. But I'll never join a unit, nor will I probably ever drop with more than three or maybe four other pilots. I used to drop as a two man, but the environment in even the group queue has become very prohibitive to success and I have a better time in solo. When I dabble in CW it's just that: dabbling. It's fun sometimes, but mostly frustrating. It's just not for me, overall. But other solo pilots might have a grand time. I see no reason they can't drop in their one maxed out chassis and three other trial mechs. Every military unit is going to have their rookies and replacements and non-performers. If they can't even drop solo they'll never know what they need to do to get better in CW. Most people want to get better. And some people, like me, are just antisocial introverts who don't really want to enlist in a unit and meet all the necessary requirements. It's unfortunate that others' playing experiences, they feel, are degraded because of that, but...as far as I see it solo pilots are probably the only way CW limps along as it does currently. A more emphatic message that they're not welcome will degrade the game experience for those hard core players even more, I think.

Yes, BANNING solo players would kill CW, period, no question. That is not what I am asking for at all....what I am asking for is that PGI give solo players incentive to play CW as part of a group. An offer they can't / won't want to refuse if you will.

As for new players, or solo players who are 'casual' and lack the 'meta' mechs, let alone the knowledge of how to equip / use such a mech....being a part of a faction / unit will make knowing what to buy, how to load it out, and how to use 'useful' mechs EASIER and far, Far, FAR more enjoyable. New players and solo players will save C-Bills know what mechs to avoid and make MORE C-Bills because teamwork is the most OP money making gig in the verse.

PGI recently gave MWO players a legit REASON to drop in public skirmish, assault, conquest ques and guess what happened....CW DIED during the Euro server release event (not so much with Oceanic event...but that has more to do with most everyone else getting horrible pings on Oceanic servers IMHO).

PGI has given MWO players a legit REASON to drop in solo ques for xyz vs the world style events.

They need to do that, but with Community Warfare and solo players....give solo players a REASON to join a faction / unit. Give a reason and meaning to being in a Faction. Give a reason and meaning to being in a Unit. Give a reason and meaning to taking and keeping a planet.

Edited by Armando, 09 August 2015 - 06:23 AM.

[Nerdboard]

I dont get it. So far I fail to see how removing solo players would actually improve the game mode. I also disagree with the idea that CW is the end-of-all-things, super pro mode or elite version of the game (yes, I am exaggerating here). To me CW is the idea of trying to implement:

- more battltech background into the game (which, unfortunately, it does not so far, there's really no story/lore in the game)
- tactical variety/a place for group tactics (which, again, it hardly does other than light rushes)
- a possibility to obtain mechbays.

The latter is actually my prime reason for not wanting to eliminate solo play. A group only mode should not have any rewards other than maybe some optical stuff which can not be obtained by a solo player.

That said I do get why you could be frustrated with solo players and why you want more people to join units and group up. As some have posted here before I think a gamemode with different fixed group sizes would go a long way here. Imo, community warfare should be replaced by a mercenary mission board which provides you with a variety of different missions (escort, invasion, defense, capture, deathmatch) in different group sizes (soloque, 4v4, 8v8, 12v12).

I agree on the lack of motivation. I'm all in for cosmetic rewards for example. Let each mission contribute points to the unit and then the unit (as a whole?) gets different ranks (basically the unit reputation) which then could provide you for example with the option of unit colors which players can then get with their own reputation points in the unit. Similarly to the guild system in World of Warcraft I guess? which did a really good job at motivating people to join a guild/unit.

Edited by Nerdboard, 09 August 2015 - 06:37 AM.

[Armando]

Nerdboard, on 09 August 2015 - 06:32 AM, said:

I dont get it. So far I fail to see how removing solo players would actually improve the game mode. I also disagree with the idea that CW is the end-of-all-things, super pro mode or elite version of the game (yes, I am exaggerating here). To me CW is the idea of trying to implement:

- more battltech background into the game (which, unfortunately, it does not so far, there's really no story/lore in the game)
- tactical variety/a place for group tactics (which, again, it hardly does other than light rushes)
- a possibility to obtain mechbays.

The latter is actually my prime reason for not wanting to eliminate solo play. A group only mode should not have any rewards other than maybe some optical stuff which can not be obtained by a solo player.

That said I do get why you could be frustrated with solo players and why you want more people to join units and group up. As some have posted here before I think a gamemode with different fixed group sizes would go a long way here. Imo, community warfare should be replaced by a mercenary mission board which provides you with a variety of different missions (escort, invasion, defense, capture, deathmatch) in different group sizes (soloque, 4v4, 8v8, 12v12).

Its not about removing solo players, it is about getting solo players to join factions and units, to fight with and as a faction and a unit. As for CW being the 'end of all things' IT ISN'T....if we are being honest about the current state there is no 'end of all things' (know to gamers as 'end game') in MWO be it CW or otherwise.

Last time I checked, MWO is a multiplayer online PvP game, with no end game.

Fighting solo for a planet that means nothing (especially to a solo player not associated with a unit tag), for a faction that means nothing (no reason to join a faction let alone be LOYAL to a faction) is not an 'END GAME" for a multiplayer online PvP game.

Fighting in a unit that gives bonuses to you and your mechs, for control over planets that generate income, produce equipment, produce mechs, produce modules, in the name of a faction that rewards players for being loyal members....THAT ladies and gentlemen is the beginning of an "END GAME" for a multiplayer online PvP game.

Edited by Armando, 09 August 2015 - 07:05 AM.

[TWIAFU]

Davegt27, on 09 August 2015 - 04:47 AM, said:

That’s the biggest bunch of boloney I think I have heard in awhile

You better start asking how they define a stomp

To bad that baloney is from PGI, the only people that know.

A stomp? That's easy, loosing. These are the same people that get stomped in solo queue. Same in the group. Same that still claim that 12man units rolfstomp solo pugs in CW all the time, when it is the solo pugs and group pugs all along. The same that only want to fight less skilled, unorganized, and teamwork bereft group of 12 people playing as 12 different people instead of 1 team of 12. Same people that do not want their group to face other groups but only face solo's while in a group.

These are the ones that cannot rise to a challenge in anything but want the bar lowered into mediocrity.

[DaFrog]

Go back to your cave you TROLL !

[Livewyr]

I would like Solo players to join units as well, but I think for that to work, PGI needs to put a lot more unit functionality into the UI. (Hell, even a unit finder function) so that players who don't really use Forums much can still get some sort of infrastructure if they wish to play Community Warfare.