239 replies to this topic

[Queen of England]

Its always bothered me that TT pilots can't actually aim without a TC or against a shutdown mech. So many mechs have specific weak points, its just odd that you can't even try to make it more likely that you hit there. Who would design a weapons system where you can't reliably hit a target smaller than 13m, even at 30m range? Maybe TT pilots are all really great at twisting and sheidling.

For extra fun, try to build Vlad's executioner in smurfy's. 2x guass rifles, 1 "large laser", 2 "pulse lasers".

Edited by Queen of England, 09 August 2015 - 08:18 AM.

[FupDup]

Queen of England, on 09 August 2015 - 08:13 AM, said:

Its always bothered me that TT pilots can't actually aim without a TC or against a shutdown mech. So many mechs have specific weak points, its just odd that you can't even try to make it more likely that you hit there. Who would design a weapons system where you can't reliably hit a target smaller than 13m, even at 30m range? Maybe TT pilots are all really great at twisting and sheidling.

For extra fun, try to build Vlad's executioner in smurfy's. 2x guass rifles, 1 "large laser", 2 "pulse lasers".

I think somebody calculated that his Gladiator has about 42 tons of weaponry, but the Gladi only has about 26.5 tons of pod space in the board game.

Mmm, plot devices...

[Queen of England]

FupDup, on 09 August 2015 - 08:22 AM, said:

I think somebody calculated that his Gladiator has about 42 tons of weaponry, but the Gladi only has about 26.5 tons of pod space in the board game.

Mmm, plot devices...

You can just barely fit the gauss rilfes and some ammo. You'll never get the lasers on there, though.

[Mcgral18]

FupDup, on 09 August 2015 - 08:22 AM, said:

I think somebody calculated that his Gladiator has about 42 tons of weaponry, but the Gladi only has about 26.5 tons of pod space in the board game.

Mmm, plot devices...

Remove 12 tons of JJs and MASC, remove 6 heatsinks?

44.5 tons?


It just wouldn't be an Omni anymore.

[Spr1ggan]

Imo the way the authors have written these books is flawed. They write them as if it was being played out on the TT. This makes the combat nonsensical. Even in the lore it's explained that the pilots control their mechs similar to their own bodies due to the neurohelmet interface. With that amount of control over the mech, there is no way that pilots would just stand there shooting into each other without shielding or proper aiming etc.

Can you imagine if 40k books tried to make the combat seem like it was just off the TT? It would be one boring ****** read.

Edited by Spr1ggan, 09 August 2015 - 08:27 AM.

[Alistair Winter]

Well...

A lot of TT players are upset that TTK is way too low and MWO feels more like a twitch shooter than a slow paced Mechwarrior game. And I agree.

But everytime PGI releases a new mech or unveils some new quirks, I can't help but notice that everyone is shouting "Ermahgerd! Pearls lasers!" and then ripping out every non-essential piece of equipment on their mech to see if they can somehow fit that 8th large pulse laser on their Banshee and get just the right rhythm to fire all 8 LPLs without getting ghost heat, so they can successfully destroy the CT of a fresh Dire Wolf in 2.9 seconds instead of 3.3.

If someone sitting on the toilet at PGI HQ so much as whispers something about nerfing the Timber Wolf and Stormcrow to the person in the next cubicle, the forum instantly explodes into an inferno of QQ, because every nerf is considered a horrible atrocity. And conversely, whenever PGI hands out free buffs like bread to the starving peasants, people eat it up with a huge smile on their face! "Thank you, milord! May we have some more buffs, plx? My King Crab needs a UAC5 jam quirk to compete with the big bad Dire Wolves! And may we have this Unseen mech with 20 energy hardpoints?"

I'm not saying it's the players' faults. PGI should know that players will always ask for buffs and always resent nerfs, especially in a game with two opposing factions that constantly feel the other side has an unfair advantage.

I just hope that one day, someone from PGI will kick down the doors to the forum and say:

"Here's the new heatscale, you spoiled brats! When you reach 50% heat, you lose speed, turn rate, arm speed and torso twist. When you reach 80% heat, your lower arm actuators will lock up and your radar will go haywire. When you reach 110%, your heat sinks will melt and your ammo will explode. Violently. Oh, and we doubled heat for all the lasers. Deal with it, f***ers!"

[Mawai]

El Bandito, on 09 August 2015 - 03:35 AM, said:

Can't even alpha in the same place at 200 meters. They really should L2P.

From "Blood Legacy" by Michael A. Stackpole


Then again, "Both combatants had alphaed each other's CT and cored it", would have been too short.

Clearly, these illustrious pilots played Battletech and not Mechwarrior Online

Even the most elite Battletech pilots obtain results such as these but equally clearly PGI has built mechs with a much greater capability than that found in ANY Battletech mech .. the ability to AIM

[Alistair Winter]

Spr1ggan, on 09 August 2015 - 08:26 AM, said:

Imo the way the authors have written these books is flawed. They write them as if it was being played out on the TT. This makes the combat nonsensical. Even in the lore it's explained that the pilots control their mechs similar to their own bodies due to the neurohelmet interface. With that amount of control over the mech, there is no way that pilots would just stand there shooting into each other without shielding or proper aiming etc.
Can you imagine if 40k books tried to make the combat seem like it was just off the TT? It would be one boring ****** read.

Firefights, sword fights and hand to hand combat always plays out differently in books than in the movies. And in the movies, it's usually pretty far from real life. The fights always play out like a Tom & Jerry episode.
"And then he punched him in the belly. And then he punched him back. And then he stepped on his toe. And then he threw a grenade, but he missed. And then the other guy threw an axe."
I guess the narrative of a fight has to be a certain way for people to find it exciting. But in pretty much every book I read, I just skip the fighting bits, because it's just a sequence of meaningless descriptions of violence. It's so dull.

[Spr1ggan]

Alistair Winter, on 09 August 2015 - 08:29 AM, said:

Well...

A lot of TT players are upset that TTK is way too low and MWO feels more like a twitch shooter than a slow paced Mechwarrior game. And I agree.

But everytime PGI releases a new mech or unveils some new quirks, I can't help but notice that everyone is shouting "Ermahgerd! Pearls lasers!" and then ripping out every non-essential piece of equipment on their mech to see if they can somehow fit that 8th large pulse laser on their Banshee and get just the right rhythm to fire all 8 LPLs without getting ghost heat, so they can successfully destroy the CT of a fresh Dire Wolf in 2.9 seconds instead of 3.3.

If someone sitting on the toilet at PGI HQ so much as whispers something about nerfing the Timber Wolf and Stormcrow to the person in the next cubicle, the forum instantly explodes into an inferno of QQ, because every nerf is considered a horrible atrocity. And conversely, whenever PGI hands out free buffs like bread to the starving peasants, people eat it up with a huge smile on their face! "Thank you, milord! May we have some more buffs, plx? My King Crab needs a UAC5 jam quirk to compete with the big bad Dire Wolves! And may we have this Unseen mech with 20 energy hardpoints?"

I'm not saying it's the players' faults. PGI should know that players will always ask for buffs and always resent nerfs, especially in a game with two opposing factions that constantly feel the other side has an unfair advantage.

I just hope that one day, someone from PGI will kick down the doors to the forum and say:

"Here's the new heatscale, you spoiled brats! When you reach 50% heat, you lose speed, turn rate, arm speed and torso twist. When you reach 80% heat, your lower arm actuators will lock up and your radar will go haywire. When you reach 110%, your heat sinks will melt and your ammo will explode. Violently. Oh, and we doubled heat for all the lasers. Deal with it, f***ers!"

On the TT there are some super low TTK scenarios though. Such as a light mech hit with an AC20 or Gauss round.

Edited by Spr1ggan, 09 August 2015 - 08:41 AM.

[Mawai]

Spr1ggan, on 09 August 2015 - 08:26 AM, said:

Imo the way the authors have written these books is flawed. They write them as if it was being played out on the TT. This makes the combat nonsensical. Even in the lore it's explained that the pilots control their mechs similar to their own bodies due to the neurohelmet interface. With that amount of control over the mech, there is no way that pilots would just stand there shooting into each other without shielding or proper aiming etc.

Can you imagine if 40k books tried to make the combat seem like it was just off the TT? It would be one boring ****** read.

Well ... lets for a second assume that pilots do use a neuro helmet interface and that it is the personal skill and balance of the pilot that affects aiming without any technical assistance .. no computer targeting systems or automatic aiming .. just eyeball things as if you were holding weapons in both hands and had a few extra weapons strapped across your chest.

This could explain the terrible "Aim" in table top. Most of the Battletech weapons have recoil. Most of them do not have any sort of "convergence" ... I believe that the weapons are essentially fix mount and it is the pilot moving the mech that brings the weapons to bear (somewhat more easily with arm than torso mounted weapons). All this while the mech walks or runs which adds a gait motion to the required corrections for proper aim. Missiles are fired into an environment where each tracks separately towards the target mech ... which is also moving .. and will likely hit different sections since the missiles aren't necessarily closely grouped.

Anyway, this kind of "model" of Battletech combat would certainly explain both the table top rules and the descriptive passages in the books since firing Battletech weapons would be more like firing a six shooter (or a cannon ) from the hip rather than aiming through a scope.

[Bishop Steiner]

Hit the Deck, on 09 August 2015 - 04:21 AM, said:

Quote: The Executioner's right-arm Gauss rifle spat out a hunk of metal about thirty centimeters in diameter.

That's naval gun's territory. Stackpole can't into physics?

have you read stackpole? Heck, his Gauss Rifle fired ball projectiles. You know, the least efficient penetrators that haven't been used since like...the civil war or before?

from "Natural Selection"
"More important, the lasers blasted into the Gauss cannon's mechanism. The capacitors exploded, shredding the armor on the right side of the Centurion's chest. The 'Mech's internal structure looked warped and twisted by the explosion. The round silver balls that the 'Mech used as ammo for the Gauss cannon spilled out, bouncing off the 'Mech's right thigh, to roll down the hill."

It's funny, we vilify Stackpole, because his "physics" (from reactor explosions to how he describes "sabot" loaded armor piercing rounds) are universally laughable. And yet.....most of the TT crowd are huge fans of the universe...because of his fiction. Whatever people want to say, the Warrior Trilogy and BLood of Kerensky are the 6 most crucial novels for fleshing out the Btech universe. (Though the Grey Death trilogy (first one, second was bollocks), Charette's first 2 novels (Wolves on the Border/Heir to the Dragon) and arguably the Jade Phoenix trilogy (which is the bible to clan fan nerds everywhere) are pretty close)

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 09 August 2015 - 08:55 AM.

[Elizander]

Queen of England, on 09 August 2015 - 08:13 AM, said:

Its always bothered me that TT pilots can't actually aim without a TC or against a shutdown mech. So many mechs have specific weak points, its just odd that you can't even try to make it more likely that you hit there. Who would design a weapons system where you can't reliably hit a target smaller than 13m, even at 30m range? Maybe TT pilots are all really great at twisting and sheidling.

For extra fun, try to build Vlad's executioner in smurfy's. 2x guass rifles, 1 "large laser", 2 "pulse lasers".

To get that many leg shots these pilots must be hell good at doing cartwheels and backflips with their battlemechs.

[Satan n stuff]

Queen of England, on 09 August 2015 - 08:13 AM, said:

Its always bothered me that TT pilots can't actually aim without a TC or against a shutdown mech. So many mechs have specific weak points, its just odd that you can't even try to make it more likely that you hit there. Who would design a weapons system where you can't reliably hit a target smaller than 13m, even at 30m range? Maybe TT pilots are all really great at twisting and sheidling.

For extra fun, try to build Vlad's executioner in smurfy's. 2x guass rifles, 1 "large laser", 2 "pulse lasers".

At short range against a shutdown mech you'll most likely be making and hitting aimed shots on tabletop unless you're affected by some serious penalties at the time. If you're using something with multiple big guns like a Warhawk, King Crab or Awesome that's usually going to be the end of the target mech.

Edited by Satan n stuff, 09 August 2015 - 08:58 AM.

[spectralthundr]

I think people forget all the prior MW games had the same thing. Short term memories or something.

[Bishop Steiner]

Spr1ggan, on 09 August 2015 - 08:41 AM, said:

On the TT there are some super low TTK scenarios though. Such as a light mech hit with an AC20 or Gauss round.

Yeah, though any Light worth their salt is moving so much that it usually took a GOOD gunnery skill a 10-12 roll to hit them.

[Spr1ggan]

If they really wanted to make this game for TT players they should have just gone singleplayer and ripped off Fallout 3s VATS system.

[Gas Guzzler]

Alistair Winter, on 09 August 2015 - 08:29 AM, said:

A lot of TT players are upset that TTK is way too low and MWO feels more like a twitch shooter than a slow paced Mechwarrior game. And I agree.

Well, I watched the first 2 matches of the MWOLN final series, it seemed pretty slow placed.. hell I think it took almost the entire time... Slow, thought out, far from a twitch shooter.

[DAYLEET]

dario03, on 09 August 2015 - 07:40 AM, said:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=53&l=stock

I see you Spider and raise you a Locust with 2 points or armor on the legs and 4 on the CT.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b#i=152&l=stock

[Rakshasa]

Alistair Winter, on 09 August 2015 - 08:29 AM, said:

If someone sitting on the toilet at PGI HQ so much as whispers something about nerfing the Timber Wolf and Stormcrow to the person in the next cubicle, the forum instantly explodes into an inferno of QQ, because every nerf is considered a horrible atrocity.

PGI responding to balance change announcement?

[Iqfish]

Hit the Deck, on 09 August 2015 - 04:21 AM, said:

Quote: The Executioner's right-arm Gauss rifle spat out a hunk of metal about thirty centimeters in diameter.

That's naval gun's territory. Stackpole can't into physics?

A 9mm Bullet can cause a big hole.

A small gauss slug can cause a much bigger hole than its diameter. he is talking about the impact, not the calibre here