239 replies to this topic

[Chuck Jager]

MW is about the game I bought in a Walmart clearance bin and played while recovering from surgery and treatment for cancer. I have not seen anything in game about anything related to Battle tech other than having some origin. Of course folks borrow code too, and somebody may still believe in Santa.

[stjobe]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 09 August 2015 - 12:50 PM, said:

Dont forget the thousand plus years in the future targetting computers (not the actual slotted ones mind you). Cause those dont make a difference

Oh they do, or the 'mech wouldn't be able to fire at all. What do you think the Mechwarrior does, crawl out on the arms and align the multi-ton weaponry by hand? Then over to the other arm, swinging by the torso weapons on his way?

I'm sure you read the part of my post you didn't quote, so you realize Mechwarriors don't aim at all. They designate targets.

[Bishop Steiner]

stjobe, on 09 August 2015 - 01:00 PM, said:

Oh they do, or the 'mech wouldn't be able to fire at all. What do you think the Mechwarrior does, crawl out on the arms and align the multi-ton weaponry by hand? Then over to the other arm, swinging by the torso weapons on his way?

I'm sure you read the part of my post you didn't quote, so you realize Mechwarriors don't aim at all. They designate targets.

ah, but apparently software in a computer should be enough to instantaneously snap a 15 ton gun into perfect alignment on a bucking 90 ton mech. Because there is no inertia to overcome, either in moving it into alignment, nor apparently in trying to stop a 15 ton weapon "instantly snapped" into position.......

Apparently the second law of motion is moot to that reasoning.

[Hit the Deck]

Crotch RockIt, on 09 August 2015 - 09:34 AM, said:

10 rounds of Gauss ammo weighs a ton. That's 100kg per round, which is a big damn slug.

Yeah, you are right if we go by that. Stackpole's estimation (30 cm diameter) is actually pretty spot on if we consider that a single Gauss projectile is an iron-alloy sphere weighing 100 kg.

[Iqfish]

Bishop Steiner, on 09 August 2015 - 01:48 PM, said:

ah, but apparently software in a computer should be enough to instantaneously snap a 15 ton gun into perfect alignment on a bucking 90 ton mech. Because there is no inertia to overcome, either in moving it into alignment, nor apparently in trying to stop a 15 ton weapon "instantly snapped" into position.......

Apparently the second law of motion is moot to that reasoning.

We are playing a game with magically spawning robots, on always the same maps, that get their ammo delivered to their guns by the magical Ekman-Fairy and run 150kph.

Do not use logic here.

[Gas Guzzler]

One thing is for sure, this is the ONLY video game that doesn't follow all the laws of physics. Amiright guys?

[Spr1ggan]

Hit the Deck, on 09 August 2015 - 01:55 PM, said:

Yeah, you are right if we go by that. Stackpole's estimation (30 cm diameter) is actually pretty spot on if we consider that a single Gauss projectile is an iron-alloy sphere weighing 100 kg.

Why the hell would anyone use sphere shaped projectiles in a gauss rifle? That would be inefficient. Might as well rename the gauss rifle to hyper velocity musket.

[Grimm Peaper]

Bishop Steiner, on 09 August 2015 - 01:48 PM, said:

ah, but apparently software in a computer should be enough to instantaneously snap a 15 ton gun into perfect alignment on a bucking 90 ton mech. Because there is no inertia to overcome, either in moving it into alignment, nor apparently in trying to stop a 15 ton weapon "instantly snapped" into position.......

Apparently the second law of motion is moot to that reasoning.

Wait, don't most modern tanks like the Abrams have stabilized gun turrets that can fire on the move? Aren't they fairly accurate even while moving even over rough terrain?

It sounds like the BT tries to depict canons going off like they did in WWII tanks. It's like comparing the accuracy from what you see from the Sherman tanks in Fury and the tanks of modern day tanks like the Abrams. It's a huge difference.

[Lynx7725]

Spr1ggan, on 09 August 2015 - 02:07 PM, said:

Why the hell would anyone use sphere shaped projectiles in a gauss rifle? That would be inefficient. Might as well rename the gauss rifle to hyper velocity musket.

Please don't give them ideas.

[Kodyn]

I haven't gotten to the Stackpole stuff yet in BT novels, but he was pretty much hands-down the best author of SW Expanded Universe novels(Timothy Zahn being the other major player here), so I have to assume most of the hate directed at him is based on him not being a BT TT expert...

Reading Decision at Thunder Rift right now, and the writing and editing is atrocious, can't wait to get to the Stackpole stuff. Even if he does have some inaccuracies, I really couldn't care less about BT TT rules, technical readouts, etc, and I find the man pleasant to read.

[Aggravated Assault Mech]

Bishop Steiner, on 09 August 2015 - 11:09 AM, said:

most armored vehicles I know of still use yokes, (mind you not saying all, but the Bradley, Abrams, etc) which are still a variation of the joystick.

The yokes are still fixed rather than standing like a flight joystick, which is an important differentiation. Controls need to be stable enough that if the gunner is using it for support while going full speed over uneven terrain, they aren't knocking the gun off-target to spite multiple-axis stabilization.

I've read arguments between people that battlemechs would be impossible on the grounds that the shock from bouncing up and down while running would be too punishing for the pilot. Whether that's true or not I don't know, but it certainly is true that the jostling from running would make aiming on the move with a traditional flight stick like we see on the startup procedure pretty much impossible.

In any case I digress. There are enough threads out there about what's unrealistic about Battletech.

[bad arcade kitty]

FupDup, on 09 August 2015 - 08:22 AM, said:

I think somebody calculated that his Gladiator has about 42 tons of weaponry, but the Gladi only has about 26.5 tons of pod space in the board game.

Mmm, plot devices...

Mcgral18, on 09 August 2015 - 08:25 AM, said:

Remove 12 tons of JJs and MASC, remove 6 heatsinks?

44.5 tons?


It just wouldn't be an Omni anymore.

i think the omnimechs with some tuning could get a different engine, get rid of jj etc, one of the leading clan officers could order it to their favorite mech i suppose, it would be much like making a set of their own not a production omnipods, it might even be used as a test sample for a new production version; after all, they sometimes even made not a production mechs, not merely omnipods, see wolfhound iic (it seems there was only one mech of that type), balius (no factory production, it's omni btw) for instance

[Strum Wealh]

Hit the Deck, on 09 August 2015 - 04:21 AM, said:

Quote: The Executioner's right-arm Gauss rifle spat out a hunk of metal about thirty centimeters in diameter.

That's naval gun's territory. Stackpole can't into physics?

bad arcade kitty, on 09 August 2015 - 04:39 AM, said:

stackpole hates clans and cannot into the plot

anyway it's an accurate number, that's from thurston's jade falcon trilogy

The Mad Dog was under no such constraints. It carried only two weapons, Gauss cannons that would spit out a melon-sized ball of hardened steel at Mach 2 every ten seconds.

Bishop Steiner, on 09 August 2015 - 08:49 AM, said:

have you read stackpole? Heck, his Gauss Rifle fired ball projectiles. You know, the least efficient penetrators that haven't been used since like...the civil war or before?

from "Natural Selection"
"More important, the lasers blasted into the Gauss cannon's mechanism. The capacitors exploded, shredding the armor on the right side of the Centurion's chest. The 'Mech's internal structure looked warped and twisted by the explosion. The round silver balls that the 'Mech used as ammo for the Gauss cannon spilled out, bouncing off the 'Mech's right thigh, to roll down the hill."

It's funny, we vilify Stackpole, because his "physics" (from reactor explosions to how he describes &"sabot" loaded armor piercing rounds) are universally laughable. And yet.....most of the TT crowd are huge fans of the universe...because of his fiction. Whatever people want to say, the Warrior Trilogy and BLood of Kerensky are the 6 most crucial novels for fleshing out the Btech universe. (Though the Grey Death trilogy (first one, second was bollocks), Charette's first 2 novels (Wolves on the Border/Heir to the Dragon) and arguably the Jade Phoenix trilogy (which is the bible to clan fan nerds everywhere) are pretty close)

To be fair, the 30cm range for a spherical Gauss Rifle slug is actually rather accurate.

A canonical Gauss rifle slug masses one-eighth of one metric ton, or 125 kg.
Many of the novels & sourcebooks also describe them as being spherical or ovoid (that is, egg-shaped), composed of a nickel-ferrous alloy, and about "the size of a melon".

The density of nickel is 8.91 g/cm^3, while the density of iron & steel is around 7.85 g/cm^3.

A 125 kg (125,000 g) mass of nickel (8.91 g/cm3) would have a volume of 14,029.2 cm^3.
A 125 kg (125,000 g) mass of iron/steel (7.85 g/cm3) would have a volume of 15,923.6 cm^3.

The volume of a sphere is given by V=(4/3)*pi*r^3; the radius of a sphere is given by r=(((3/4)*V)/pi)^(1/3).
A sphere of volume 14,029.2 cm^3 would have a radius of 14.96 cm, or a diameter of 29.92 cm (11.78 inches).
A sphere of volume 15,923.6 cm^3 would have a radius of 15.61 cm, or a diameter of 31.21 cm (12.29 inches).

Since a Gauss Rifle slug is neither pure nickel nor pure iron/steel, it would have a density - and, thus, a diameter - somewhere between the values given for nickel and those given for iron/steel.

So, yes, a canonical Gauss Rifle slug - a 125 kg nickel-ferrous sphere - would indeed be around 30cm (roughly one foot) in diameter, which would actually make it about the same diameter as a watermelon (see here and here).

[bad arcade kitty]

they probably used invar, a nickel-iron alloy with the density of 8.1 :3

[Bishop Steiner]

Hit the Deck, on 09 August 2015 - 01:55 PM, said:

Yeah, you are right if we go by that. Stackpole's estimation (30 cm diameter) is actually pretty spot on if we consider that a single Gauss projectile is an iron-alloy sphere weighing 100 kg.

anyone wanna do the math on how many megawatts is needed to propel that sucker? The Naval Test Rail Gun I think used 25 megawatts to launch a much smaller projectile.

Of course, maybe it's a very heavy sabot?

Strum Wealh, on 09 August 2015 - 02:32 PM, said:

To be fair, the 30cm range for a spherical Gauss Rifle slug is actually rather accurate.

A canonical Gauss rifle slug masses one-eighth of one metric ton, or 125 kg.
Many of the novels & sourcebooks also describe them as being spherical or ovoid (that is, egg-shaped), composed of a nickel-ferrous alloy, and about "the size of a melon".

The density of nickel is 8.91 g/cm^3, while the density of iron & steel is around 7.85 g/cm^3.

A 125 kg (125,000 g) mass of nickel (8.91 g/cm3) would have a volume of 14,029.2 cm^3.
A 125 kg (125,000 g) mass of iron/steel (7.85 g/cm3) would have a volume of 15,923.6 cm^3.

The volume of a sphere is given by V=(4/3)*pi*r^3; the radius of a sphere is given by r=(((3/4)*V)/pi)^(1/3).
A sphere of volume 14,029.2 cm^3 would have a radius of 14.96 cm, or a diameter of 29.92 cm (11.78 inches).
A sphere of volume 15,923.6 cm^3 would have a radius of 15.61 cm, or a diameter of 31.21 cm (12.29 inches).

Since a Gauss Rifle slug is neither pure nickel nor pure iron/steel, it would have a density - and, thus, a diameter - somewhere between the values given for nickel and those given for iron/steel.

So, yes, a canonical Gauss Rifle slug - a 125 kg nickel-ferrous sphere - would indeed be around 30cm (roughly one foot) in diameter, which would actually make it about the same diameter as a watermelon (see here and here).

indeed...and the kinetic impact energy imparted would be fantastic. It's ability as a penetrator would be grossly inefficient though.

Call me crazy, but I think I'd load a meter long tungsten penetrator into a nice ferrous sabot, and use that same amount of energy to punch right through my target.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 09 August 2015 - 03:06 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Grimm Peaper, on 09 August 2015 - 02:11 PM, said:

Wait, don't most modern tanks like the Abrams have stabilized gun turrets that can fire on the move? Aren't they fairly accurate even while moving even over rough terrain?

It sounds like the BT tries to depict canons going off like they did in WWII tanks. It's like comparing the accuracy from what you see from the Sherman tanks in Fury and the tanks of modern day tanks like the Abrams. It's a huge difference.

fairly accurate. Yes. Pinpoint, while at flank, over rough terrain? (Mechs use bipedal movement which means lots of bobbing to accommodate, and the weapons are far to heavy to mount ins a steady mount like a gyrocam, or such, ignoring the fragility of such a system).

No.

Again though, we are talking a universe where "long range guns" have less effective range than a man pack anti material rifle today does. So don't hold your breath.

What "works IRL" and what gives the Btech Universe flavor are two vastly different things.

[Kassatsu]

This can easily be explained by the fact the books were based on the tabletop game, which was 100% RNG for whether you even hit your target, much less where the hit landed. Well, almost 100%.

Also, fixed hardpoints. Not magical converging ACs with magical curving bullets (you certainly don't see the barrels changing orientation to adjust for range), actual fixed torso mounted weapons that fire from a set angle, and hit at a set angle. Lasers can be explained fairly easily with a rotating focal lens, but how does any ballistic weapon, a(n ER) PPC or even an SRM have ANY convergence AT ALL?

This doesn't explain the arm-mounted weapon shots being terrible (at least, those with both actuators), but eh. Books.

Edited by Kassatsu, 09 August 2015 - 03:11 PM.

[Strum Wealh]

bad arcade kitty, on 09 August 2015 - 02:44 PM, said:

they probably used invar, a nickel-iron alloy with the density of 8.1 :3

So, apparently, Invar has a density of 0.291 lb/in^3, or 8.05485227 g/cm^3

Working through the math, a 125 kg sphere made of Invar would have a diameter of 30.95 cm.

So, whatever alloy the Gauss Rifle slugs are made of is heavier than Invar (e.g. less iron/steel, more nickel).

In fact, if we work backwards, the Gauss Rifle slug alloy would need to have a density of 8.842 g/cm^3 to account for a sphere exactly 30.00 cm in diameter.

Edited by Strum Wealh, 09 August 2015 - 03:26 PM.

[Hit the Deck]

Bishop Steiner, on 09 August 2015 - 03:03 PM, said:

anyone wanna do the math on how many megawatts is needed to propel that sucker? The Naval Test Rail Gun I think used 25 megawatts to launch a much smaller projectile.
....

To calculate that, we need the muzzle velocity and barrel length of the gun.

[Aggravated Assault Mech]

Kassatsu, on 09 August 2015 - 03:11 PM, said:

but how does any ballistic weapon, a(n ER) PPC or even an SRM have ANY convergence AT ALL?

Literally 19th century military technology, dude.