259 replies to this topic

[Dino Might]

GrimRiver, on 14 August 2015 - 09:10 AM, said:

Whats not serious about it? The fact it took 5 mechs focusing fire just to kill him or that he dies but somehow negates that fact that it took 5 mechs to kill him. If it were any other light they would've died within 15 seconds but he took 40 seconds worth of beating and before that he was already at 69%.

Even if none of that is exaggerated, it's only proof of hit reg problems in that particular match. Were you playing on Oceanic? To my knowledge, there is still some issue where a shutdown mech may not be exactly where your client tells you it is.

On top of that, remember there is significant damage reduction when firing through destroyed components. Is it 20% transfer at this point? It's something obscenely small.

But you're trying to make a point that doesn't need to be made. Everyone accepts the ACH is really durable. It's not too durable if you look at that aspect alone.

The problem is that you take every characteristic, and it is best in class in all of them. THAT is the problem. Not that it is best in class in any one thing. The problem is that it's best in class in everything.

Firepower - check
Durability - check
Mobility - check
Hardpoints - check
ECM - check

[GrimRiver]

Mcgral18, on 14 August 2015 - 09:15 AM, said:

You can convert it to MP4 and it would upload in 10 minutes, but mine always look like ****.

Thats what I was afraid of, I didn't want the video to look like blah and have people dispute the facts about the happenings in it.

[GrimRiver]

Dino Might, on 14 August 2015 - 09:19 AM, said:

Even if none of that is exaggerated, it's only proof of hit reg problems in that particular match. Were you playing on Oceanic? To my knowledge, there is still some issue where a shutdown mech may not be exactly where your client tells you it is.

On top of that, remember there is significant damage reduction when firing through destroyed components. Is it 20% transfer at this point? It's something obscenely small.

But you're trying to make a point that doesn't need to be made. Everyone accepts the ACH is really durable. It's not too durable if you look at that aspect alone.

The problem is that you take every characteristic, and it is best in class in all of them. THAT is the problem. Not that it is best in class in any one thing. The problem is that it's best in class in everything.

Firepower - check
Durability - check
Mobility - check
Hardpoints - check
ECM - check

If it isn't hit reg or lagshield then it's far too good at what it does, making ALL other lights nullgame.

And no I only play on US servers and my ping was at 38 at time of match.

[1453 R]

GrimRiver, on 14 August 2015 - 09:10 AM, said:

Whats not serious about it? The fact it took 5 mechs focusing fire just to kill him or that he dies but somehow negates that fact that it took 5 mechs to kill him. If it were any other light they would've died within 15 seconds but he took 40 seconds worth of beating and before that he was already at 69%.

I had a nice chunky in-depth response to this, but the forum ate it. So...bullet-point version, I suppose. Le sigh.

• Light 'Mechs do actually have armor. They are not made of cheese, and the expectation that they melt when you apply the least little bit of heat to them is unrealistic. You're acting like this 'Mech should lose limbs any time you hit it once, and collapse into a puddle of radioactive goo if you manage to hit it twice.
  
• It's really easy to mistake a raking, multi-component hit for a solid CT jab on light 'Mechs. SRMs - the core of your repeated stories about dumping ten thousand alphas into a shutdown Cheetah - are by their nature not a solid CT hit. This 'Mech is good at spreading damage - that makes it more durable.
  
• Demanding everyone else prove the Cheetah's not broken, then discarding any argument presented towards that purpose with "dude, the Cheetah's totally broken, why are you arguing that, what are you stupid?" is not the way to hold a balance discussion. Your anecdotal story of dumping a lot of damage into a shutdown Cheetah is no more or less valid than my anecdotal stories of it taking damage just fine. A video where a bunch of 'Mechs shoot a Cheetah and it dies is not proof the thing is busted.
  
• Demanding Piranha triple its hitbox sizes so it's effectively the size of a Hunchback or some incredibly stupid overreactive 'fix' so nobody pilots it anymore and you never have to look at one again people stop complaining on the forums is a rotten idea. Remove its quirks. Start there, see how it goes.

[Lugh]

1453 R, on 14 August 2015 - 09:43 AM, said:

I had a nice chunky in-depth response to this, but the forum ate it. So...bullet-point version, I suppose. Le sigh.

• Light 'Mechs do actually have armor. They are not made of cheese, and the expectation that they melt when you apply the least little bit of heat to them is unrealistic. You're acting like this 'Mech should lose limbs any time you hit it once, and collapse into a puddle of radioactive goo if you manage to hit it twice.
  
• It's really easy to mistake a raking, multi-component hit for a solid CT jab on light 'Mechs. SRMs - the core of your repeated stories about dumping ten thousand alphas into a shutdown Cheetah - are by their nature not a solid CT hit. This 'Mech is good at spreading damage - that makes it more durable.
  
• Demanding everyone else prove the Cheetah's not broken, then discarding any argument presented towards that purpose with "dude, the Cheetah's totally broken, why are you arguing that, what are you stupid?" is not the way to hold a balance discussion. Your anecdotal story of dumping a lot of damage into a shutdown Cheetah is no more or less valid than my anecdotal stories of it taking damage just fine. A video where a bunch of 'Mechs shoot a Cheetah and it dies is not proof the thing is busted.
  
• Demanding Piranha triple its hitbox sizes so it's effectively the size of a Hunchback or some incredibly stupid overreactive 'fix' so nobody pilots it anymore and you never have to look at one again people stop complaining on the forums is a rotten idea. Remove its quirks. Start there, see how it goes.

Let's not even do that. Pgi saw fit to give it to them because it is NOT NUMBER ONE in Firepower that honor goes to the FS9.

PGI gave it the durability quirks to give it a chance at fighting the up-gunned FS

PGI didn't like the way it played without them in their modeling sessions.

[RustyBolts]

Here you go:

Quote

Anybody else getting very tired of the ACH FS9 living though everything you pump into it's CT that very much will kill any assault only for it to run around all happy go lucky without a care in the world?

The ACH FS9 has been a broken mech since it came out, hiding behind hit reg and lagshield issues like for exp: A few matches ago I was in my atlas-d-dc that does an alpha of 53.8 and had a very hurt ACH FS9 at 30% with an open bloodred CT run around me only to overheat from firing 3meds after I fired 2 alphas dead center into his CT he gets back up from overheating and runs off with 28% health.

Been seeing this since the Firestarters came out.

[GrimRiver]

1453 R, on 14 August 2015 - 09:43 AM, said:

I had a nice chunky in-depth response to this, but the forum ate it. So...bullet-point version, I suppose. Le sigh.

• Light 'Mechs do actually have armor. They are not made of cheese, and the expectation that they melt when you apply the least little bit of heat to them is unrealistic. You're acting like this 'Mech should lose limbs any time you hit it once, and collapse into a puddle of radioactive goo if you manage to hit it twice.
  
• It's really easy to mistake a raking, multi-component hit for a solid CT jab on light 'Mechs. SRMs - the core of your repeated stories about dumping ten thousand alphas into a shutdown Cheetah - are by their nature not a solid CT hit. This 'Mech is good at spreading damage - that makes it more durable.
  
• Demanding everyone else prove the Cheetah's not broken, then discarding any argument presented towards that purpose with "dude, the Cheetah's totally broken, why are you arguing that, what are you stupid?" is not the way to hold a balance discussion. Your anecdotal story of dumping a lot of damage into a shutdown Cheetah is no more or less valid than my anecdotal stories of it taking damage just fine. A video where a bunch of 'Mechs shoot a Cheetah and it dies is not proof the thing is busted.
  
• Demanding Piranha triple its hitbox sizes so it's effectively the size of a Hunchback or some incredibly stupid overreactive 'fix' so nobody pilots it anymore and you never have to look at one again people stop complaining on the forums is a rotten idea. Remove its quirks. Start there, see how it goes.

I know lights have armor but I've NEVER seen a firestarter live though a beating that a ACH can take and I've seen firestarters in the hands of some very good people.

I've never demanded anything to be done to the ACH just that PGI look into the issue on how it can take an unreal beating and making ALL other light pointless and also the fact that it eventually dies is not the issue but the beating it took to kill it.

Edited by GrimRiver, 14 August 2015 - 10:06 AM.

[Mystere]

GrimRiver, on 14 August 2015 - 09:10 AM, said:

Whats not serious about it? The fact it took 5 mechs focusing fire just to kill him or that he dies but somehow negates that fact that it took 5 mechs to kill him. If it were any other light they would've died within 15 seconds but he took 40 seconds worth of beating and before that he was already at 69%.

From this very same thread:

Mystere, on 12 August 2015 - 10:03 AM, said:

I recently saw a Jenner entangle 5 Mechs. I typed "What's taking so long to kill that thing?" When I saw no progress for 10 seconds more, I decided to go to them, kill the Jenner, return to my original position, and type "That is how you kill a Jenner!".

Note that I was 3-4 grid squares away.

So 5 horrible pilots were unable to quickly dispatch 1 enemy light. Please tell me something new.

[Mystere]

1453 R, on 14 August 2015 - 09:43 AM, said:

I had a nice chunky in-depth response to this, but the forum ate it. So...bullet-point version, I suppose. Le sigh.

• Light 'Mechs do actually have armor. They are not made of cheese, and the expectation that they melt when you apply the least little bit of heat to them is unrealistic. You're acting like this 'Mech should lose limbs any time you hit it once, and collapse into a puddle of radioactive goo if you manage to hit it twice.
  
• It's really easy to mistake a raking, multi-component hit for a solid CT jab on light 'Mechs. SRMs - the core of your repeated stories about dumping ten thousand alphas into a shutdown Cheetah - are by their nature not a solid CT hit. This 'Mech is good at spreading damage - that makes it more durable.
  
• Demanding everyone else prove the Cheetah's not broken, then discarding any argument presented towards that purpose with "dude, the Cheetah's totally broken, why are you arguing that, what are you stupid?" is not the way to hold a balance discussion. Your anecdotal story of dumping a lot of damage into a shutdown Cheetah is no more or less valid than my anecdotal stories of it taking damage just fine. A video where a bunch of 'Mechs shoot a Cheetah and it dies is not proof the thing is busted.
  
• Demanding Piranha triple its hitbox sizes so it's effectively the size of a Hunchback or some incredibly stupid overreactive 'fix' so nobody pilots it anymore and you never have to look at one again people stop complaining on the forums is a rotten idea. Remove its quirks. Start there, see how it goes.

I propose that absolutely nothing be touched until definitive proof is given. And no, spreadsheets produced by spreadsheet warriors do not count. Who the hell uses static numbers to analyze dynamic systems?

Edited by Mystere, 14 August 2015 - 10:34 AM.

[1453 R]

GrimRiver, on 14 August 2015 - 09:59 AM, said:

I know lights have armor but I've NEVER seen a firestarter live though a beating that a ACH can take and I've seen firestarters in the hands of some very good people.

I've never demanded anything to be done to the ACH just that PGI look into the issue on how it can take an unreal beating and making ALL other light pointless and also the fact that it eventually dies is not the issue but the beating it took to kill it.

Question for you, then.

What if Piranha investigates, then comes to the conclusion that everything is working as intended?

That the people saying it's hitreg in general, not anything Cheetah-specific, and that folks are just doing their usual overblown "Y LYTES NO DYE?!" thing, are actually right?

What would you do?

[Speedy Plysitkos]

wot i dont get, why they are delaying nerf of it. (cause right now its pure P2W guys with this nonsense)

[Top Leliel]

It would be stupid for them to increase hitbox sizes to the point where its the size of medium. But they should definitely fix the hitboxes. It is clear that there is a problem with the center torso being impossible to hit, as well as side shots on the legs being extremely difficult because of how thin the things are.

They should also remove the structure quirks.

The Arctic Cheetah shouldn't be ruined, it should just be made less "god mode" and have the same weaknesses as similar mechs.

Edit: Also, about the Firestarter. It doesn't have the brokenness of the Arctic Cheetah. It has better heat management and less laser burn time, to its credit. However, it dies after losing a single side torso, and lacks ECM, meaning that it often doesn't have time to break line of sight before getting missile locked by skillcrows/lurmboats.

Edited by Top Leliel, 14 August 2015 - 10:57 AM.

[Mystere]

Top Leliel, on 14 August 2015 - 10:54 AM, said:

It would be stupid for them to increase hitbox sizes to the point where its the size of medium. But they should definitely fix the hitboxes. It is clear that there is a problem with the center torso being impossible to hit, as well as side shots on the legs being extremely difficult because of how thin the things are.

They should also remove the structure quirks.

The Arctic Cheetah shouldn't be ruined, it should just be made less "god mode" and have the same weaknesses as similar mechs.

GOD MODE implies it cannot die. It can and does die.

If you believe in gods anyway.

Edited by Mystere, 14 August 2015 - 10:56 AM.

[Dino Might]

Still waiting on my response, ACH supporters. I know you like to lump me in with the anecdotal "evidence" crowd, but not one of you has said why it's okay to have such blatant advantages in every category that matters. This is not anecdotal - it's right there in the mech lab.

Mystere, I don't agree that paper stats don't matter. They do in fact matter when they translate into gameplay performance, and if you're being fair, you can agree that these certainly do.

Objectively, ACH isn't OP relative to other mechs like Thunderbolt, Timby, Dire, etc. but it is OP relative to other lights. That's the issue here. Quit arguing with the easy stuff and address the real point here.

[1453 R]

Dino Might, on 14 August 2015 - 11:20 AM, said:

Still waiting on my response, ACH supporters. I know you like to lump me in with the anecdotal "evidence" crowd, but not one of you has said why it's okay to have such blatant advantages in every category that matters. This is not anecdotal - it's right there in the mech lab.

Mystere, I don't agree that paper stats don't matter. They do in fact matter when they translate into gameplay performance, and if you're being fair, you can agree that these certainly do.

Objectively, ACH isn't OP relative to other mechs like Thunderbolt, Timby, Dire, etc. but it is OP relative to other lights. That's the issue here. Quit arguing with the easy stuff and address the real point here.

And your solution to this issue?

As I've said, most any reasonable Clan pilot agrees that removing the machine's quirks makes sense. It's already powerful without them, no one can figure out why it got such serious structure quirks in the first place.

What else do you want done? Do you really want them to make it Hunchback-sized, so shooting the thing in the intangible aura several meters away from its actual body deals damage to it? Are we talking VTR Giganerf again, give it the same mobility profile as a 50-ton 'Mech? Remove the ECM hardpoint and invalidate the canonical Prime configuration? What are you looking for?

That's the question I keep asking, and the one nobody's answering. What do you people want to do to the thing?

[Dino Might]

My solution? Change the firepower and/or give it some negative energy quirks. Right now it has positive energy quirks. Boating small pulse on this thing is ridiculously good.

Don't change the hitboxes, they seem fine. Durability should be one of the traits of this mech - it's a Clan light, we expect it to take a pounding and keep running. But you have to offset that with a reduced firepower capability. Either make it run hotter or don't let it mount as many small energy weapons. The Clan small pulse and er small lasers are huge problems here - look at their stats compared to IS. IS smalls are a joke comparatively. The clan small pulse gets a 50% increase in damage over the IS small pulse AND it gets a 50% increase in range.

I'd probably remove all positive quirks on the ACH, and then adjust clan small lasers to do 4 damage and clan small pulse to do 5 damage - see how that goes for a while. I'm willing to bet it would reign in a lot of the issues.

Edited by Dino Might, 14 August 2015 - 11:33 AM.

[Kmieciu]

The Spider used to have hitbox issues that made it hard to kill. But the hitboxes have been fixed and now it looses legs extremly quickly. The only thing that reminds about its glory days is the lack of structure quirks.
Remember how the Executioner had extremly poor hitboxes at release? It was a walking CT and had no chance against a Banshee or even a Stalker. That was fixed overnight.
I have no doubt that hitboxes on the ACH will be "improved" when it becomes available for C-Bills and the Jenner IIC will be even better.

[1453 R]

The ideal solution is to make Sphere smalls not completely pointless first, I'd argue. Nobody, and I mean nobody, is going to use a 3-damage laser with a 135m range.

I have long maintained that small lasers should beat the same weight of medium lasers handily inside their effective range, and mediums should beat their weight in large lasers inside their effective range, as well. Clan lasers do this well - smalls beat the pants off equal weight of mediums inside small laser effective range, mediums beat the pants off equivalent weight of larges inside medium effective range. Sphere lasers have never done this - small lasers never cleanly beat equivalent weight of medium lasers, short supermegagigaquirks. Ensuring Clan smalls no longer cleanly beat Clan mediums doesn't do much other than shift Cheetahs to medium-range energy boating, rather than knife-fighting fits.

Would you rather deal with them at 400m, or 150m?

[Koniks]

Dino Might, on 14 August 2015 - 07:21 AM, said:

This is false. Look at the damage numbers for the Clan vs IS lasers you are comparing.

For example:
7 CSMP = 42 damage
8 IS SMP = 32 damage

That's one less laser and still 30% higher damage per alpha. Oh yeah, and 50m greater range.
I know you are going to bring up sustained fire - okay, show me the numbers there. Then consider that if you are facetanking alpha after alpha in a light, you're doing it wrong.

Fact is, both the FS9 and ACH have the ability to facetank alpha after alpha, which is the only reason we even worry about sustained firepower with those mechs. They're already borked, and then we have a 40+ damage alpha from one of them. It's absurd.

FS9-A and FS9-S overheat at about 24 seconds of sustained fire. 7xSPL ACH overheats at about 16 seconds of sustained fire. ACH has better sustained DPS than either during those 16 seconds. And a 42 point alpha is nothing to sneeze at. The ECM ACH loadouts with a similar alpha to both FS9s also have better DPS and sustain fire for about 24 seconds.

Both FS9s have a beam duration advantage but that can be nullified by taking the larger alphas. The FS9-S still maintains a slight advantage in range over the ERSL ACH.

Edited by Mizeur, 14 August 2015 - 11:57 AM.

[GrimRiver]

The video is up on front, thoughts?