259 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

Dino Might, on 14 August 2015 - 11:20 AM, said:

Mystere, I don't agree that paper stats don't matter. They do in fact matter when they translate into gameplay performance, and if you're being fair, you can agree that these certainly do.

I myself do not believe that static values (i.e. paper stats) are enough when evaluating any dynamic system. They may be used as starting points. But, they alone do not cut it. Otherwise, i will not require my crew to run tests and more tests along with simulations and more simulations day in and day out for days or weeks on end before projects get my signature for deployment. But that's just me.

Dino Might, on 14 August 2015 - 11:20 AM, said:

Still waiting on my response, ACH supporters. I know you like to lump me in with the anecdotal "evidence" crowd, but not one of you has said why it's okay to have such blatant advantages in every category that matters. This is not anecdotal - it's right there in the mech lab.

...

Objectively, ACH isn't OP relative to other mechs like Thunderbolt, Timby, Dire, etc. but it is OP relative to other lights. That's the issue here. Quit arguing with the easy stuff and address the real point here.

It's a team-based environment in which the team decides (as a group or individually) what to bring to the engagement and fight as a team (or not in the case of PUGs). As such, the individual -- person or piece of equipment -- is subordinate to the group.

It's not as if anyone is really forced to bring something and only that something. As such, I see these calls for "fairness" quite excessive. Everyone having access to anything and everything is "fair" -- balanced -- enough for me.

Think of me as being more interested in the forest instead of each individual tree in it.

And finally, we're talking about Battletech. The source material is so full of imbalances it is almost futile to balance it all without turning it into something else. And so I see calls to make the Mist Lynx equivalent to the Arctic Cheetah -- something that was specifically designed to replace the former -- as nothing but silly. Power creep is unavoidable unless PGI freezes the timeline and stops releasing any more Mechs and equipment.

Does anyone want to play a game in which a Japanese Type 89 I-Go medium tank is just as good as a Russian T-34?

As I said, forest over tree.

[Mystere]

1453 R, on 14 August 2015 - 11:28 AM, said:

As I've said, most any reasonable Clan pilot agrees that removing the machine's quirks makes sense. It's already powerful without them, no one can figure out why it got such serious structure quirks in the first place.

Wouldn't it be a better idea to first ask why PGI gave the Arctic Cheetah those quirks in the first place, instead of just putting out a crying call to bring out the nerf sledgehammer? Maybe they do have a valid reason why they did such a thing.

Edited by Mystere, 14 August 2015 - 12:06 PM.

[1453 R]

GrimRiver, on 14 August 2015 - 11:57 AM, said:

The video is up on front, thoughts?

Honest opinion?

Inconclusive.

What I saw was a lot of flashy, destructive-looking laser fusilades. There were a few impacts from what sounded like light autocannons, but from the perspective of the Cheetah pilot it seemed like most of the fire he was taking were raking hits. When he shut down, he didn't actually take much fire - a few more lasers, a handful of LRMs from someone with more gusto than sense. Then he woke back up and got in a couple more futile cSPL hits before being taken down through the shoulders.

The CT hitbox on the Cheetah is narrow and easily twisted away. Nobody's disputing that. I didn't see any evidence in that one video of the Cheetah being this insane 700-armor colossus everyone's claiming, though. Certainly he lived longer than some guys would have, but his opponents' aim did not seem terribly acute.

Mystere, on 14 August 2015 - 12:01 PM, said:

Wouldn't it be a better idea to first ask why PGI gave the Arctic Cheetah those quirks in the first place, instead of just putting out a crying call to bring out the nerf sledgehammer? Maybe they do have a valid reason why they did such a thing.

My preference would have been for them to release the Cheetah without quirks and if it somehow struggled, give it a few uptweaks later. Release weak and buff later is better than release strong and knock down, and frankly I can't see how something with the Cheetah's extremely favorable geometry, amazing hardpoints, mobility profile and ECM capability also needed nigh-doubling of structure in some locations.

While I disagree with Grim and Dino that the Cheetah ought to be reduced to quirkless-Lynx levels of complete and utter suck so that no one with a clue ever runs it again, the upquirks do kind of seem like overkill on a 'Mech with quite the plethora of natural advantages.

[Mystere]

1453 R, on 14 August 2015 - 12:09 PM, said:

My preference would have been for them to release the Cheetah without quirks and if it somehow struggled, give it a few uptweaks later. Release weak and buff later is better than release strong and knock down, and frankly I can't see how something with the Cheetah's extremely favorable geometry, amazing hardpoints, mobility profile and ECM capability also needed nigh-doubling of structure in some locations.

Then it makes even more sense to ask PGI why. Who knows? Maybe they are buffing all lights in their rebalance activity.

This whole brouhaha is beginning to sound like people who "shoot first, ask questions later".

Edited by Mystere, 14 August 2015 - 12:12 PM.

[Koniks]

The ACH would've been a furnace on twigs with ECM if it didn't have the quirks.

[GrimRiver]

1453 R, on 14 August 2015 - 12:06 PM, said:

Honest opinion?

Inconclusive.

What I saw was a lot of flashy, destructive-looking laser fusilades. There were a few impacts from what sounded like light autocannons, but from the perspective of the Cheetah pilot it seemed like most of the fire he was taking were raking hits. When he shut down, he didn't actually take much fire - a few more lasers, a handful of LRMs from someone with more gusto than sense. Then he woke back up and got in a couple more futile cSPL hits before being taken down through the shoulders.

The CT hitbox on the Cheetah is narrow and easily twisted away. Nobody's disputing that. I didn't see any evidence in that one video of the Cheetah being this insane 700-armor colossus everyone's claiming, though. Certainly he lived longer than some guys would have, but his opponents' aim did not seem terribly acute.

He also took a ERPPC hit when he overheated and it was combo of AC2 and 5 hits and notice he wasn't all that much red in CT and legs even with all those hits at the end.

Edited by GrimRiver, 14 August 2015 - 12:15 PM.

[Mystere]

1453 R, on 14 August 2015 - 11:28 AM, said:

What else do you want done? Do you really want them to make it Hunchback-sized, so shooting the thing in the intangible aura several meters away from its actual body deals damage to it? Are we talking VTR Giganerf again, give it the same mobility profile as a 50-ton 'Mech? Remove the ECM hardpoint and invalidate the canonical Prime configuration? What are you looking for?

That's the question I keep asking, and the one nobody's answering. What do you people want to do to the thing?

[1453 R]

GrimRiver, on 14 August 2015 - 12:14 PM, said:

He also took a ERPPC hit when he overheated and it was combo of AC2 and 5 hits and notice he wasn't all that much red in CT and legs even with all those hits at the end.

Hits to a destroyed arm or side-torso hitbox transfer progressively less damage to the CT. Hitting the arm box on a destroyed shoulder is something like 20% total damage applied to the CT. They took him through both shoulders - to me, that looks like people were hitting him in the flanks, arm or shoulder hitboxes, not drilling him dead-center the way you're stating they all did. The more fire they pumped into already-destroyed locations, the less that damage actually got through.

It's why you go for legs on lights - their upper bodies are compact enough they can take damage anywhere they like with little trouble, and turn the damage-transfer mechanic into a nice damage reduction.

Seriously. Ping Adiuvo, have him watch that video. I imagine he'll concur - damage reduction through arm and ST hitboxes to CT, and also demonstrably lousy aim on the part of the bunch of guys doing the shooting.

[Josef Koba]

They seem to die just fine when I pilot them... I never experienced the benefits of any lag shield, god mode ACH.

[FupDup]

Josef Koba, on 14 August 2015 - 12:25 PM, said:

They seem to die just fine when I pilot them... I never experienced the benefits of any lag shield, god mode ACH.

PGI gave you a "defective" copy of the mech, apparently. Several people in this thread seem to also have "defective" variants. Maybe if you give them the receipt they'll let you exchange it for a "normal" one?

[Mcgral18]

1453 R, on 14 August 2015 - 12:24 PM, said:

Hits to a destroyed arm or side-torso hitbox transfer progressively less damage to the CT. Hitting the arm box on a destroyed shoulder is something like 20% total damage applied to the CT. They took him through both shoulders - to me, that looks like people were hitting him in the flanks, arm or shoulder hitboxes, not drilling him dead-center the way you're stating they all did. The more fire they pumped into already-destroyed locations, the less that damage actually got through.

It's why you go for legs on lights - their upper bodies are compact enough they can take damage anywhere they like with little trouble, and turn the damage-transfer mechanic into a nice damage reduction.

Seriously. Ping Adiuvo, have him watch that video. I imagine he'll concur - damage reduction through arm and ST hitboxes to CT, and also demonstrably lousy aim on the part of the bunch of guys doing the shooting.

Yep, 60% reduction from 1 component(leg>ST or ST>CT), 80% from 2 (Leg>ST>CT or Arm>ST>CT)

So, 40% or 20% damage. Arm stumps were made smaller (infamous on the pre-nerf Centurion), so not sure how those are on new robots.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

FupDup, on 12 August 2015 - 09:30 AM, said:

I haven't really experienced the so-called "godmode" mech that people keep going on about.

Yeah, every time I try a god mode mech I get one shot. Damn my good ping

[Dino Might]

1453 R, on 14 August 2015 - 12:09 PM, said:

My preference would have been for them to release the Cheetah without quirks and if it somehow struggled, give it a few uptweaks later. Release weak and buff later is better than release strong and knock down, and frankly I can't see how something with the Cheetah's extremely favorable geometry, amazing hardpoints, mobility profile and ECM capability also needed nigh-doubling of structure in some locations.

Remove the quirks and then rebalance Clan small lasers and small pulse lasers to be closer to IS. Simply make Clan ER small do 4 damage and Clan Small Pulse do 5 damage.

Then, no more issues with the ACH. It then has FS9 firepower with Clan XL durability, slightly slower, but longer range and smaller profile. It would be much more balanced with the other lights.

Then they need to fix the FS9 med. pulse boat to get that thing back into the realm of reasonableness. Both would still be quite good - in fact, they'd remain the best lights, but like the Timby and Scrow post-nerf, wouldn't quite be as head and shoulders over the rest of their peers.

Even though I used hyperbole previously, in all seriousness, I do NOT want the ACH nerfed into oblivion. I have them. I want to play them and have fun! I don't want a mindless murder machine that can slaughter every other light in a 1v1 battle. I want to have to worry about whether or not that dance of death is going to be worth the trades in armor at the end.

Edited by Dino Might, 14 August 2015 - 12:32 PM.

[GrimRiver]

1453 R, on 14 August 2015 - 12:24 PM, said:

Hits to a destroyed arm or side-torso hitbox transfer progressively less damage to the CT. Hitting the arm box on a destroyed shoulder is something like 20% total damage applied to the CT. They took him through both shoulders - to me, that looks like people were hitting him in the flanks, arm or shoulder hitboxes, not drilling him dead-center the way you're stating they all did. The more fire they pumped into already-destroyed locations, the less that damage actually got through.

It's why you go for legs on lights - their upper bodies are compact enough they can take damage anywhere they like with little trouble, and turn the damage-transfer mechanic into a nice damage reduction.

Seriously. Ping Adiuvo, have him watch that video. I imagine he'll concur - damage reduction through arm and ST hitboxes to CT, and also demonstrably lousy aim on the part of the bunch of guys doing the shooting.

I did a frame by frame and his left back side took the hit from the ERPPC, his arm was blown off by the blackjack with the 1 med laser the split second he came out from overheating.

[1453 R]

FupDup, on 14 August 2015 - 12:27 PM, said:

PGI gave you a "defective" copy of the mech, apparently. Several people in this thread seem to also have "defective" variants. Maybe if you give them the receipt they'll let you exchange it for a "normal" one?

No no, Fup. Clearly, us folks who've experienced the bitter touch of death in the Cheetah just haven't found the Norris Bacon in their cockpits yet. One strip of Norris Bacon, the experimental new consumable in Cheetahs, lets a man tank Whales, outshoot Timber Wolves, outfly Shadow Cats, and take entire worlds in CW single-handedly. They get Morgan Kell's hitboxes, Kai Allard-Liao's aimbots, Nicholai Malthus' thigh-mounted deathcannons, Sun-Tzu's political deftness, and Michael Stackpole's eye for dramatics, and every woman in the Inner Sphere from Omi Kurita to Natasha Kerensky finds them irresistably attractive.

[Rushmoar]

I'm sure the ACH takes advantages of many things like hit boxes, quirks, and HSR combined with player pings. But I love it when assaults and heavy pilots complain about lights being op. Lights take the most risks and assault pilots hiding behind all that armor and fire power. I will like the day where lights and mediums have the largest wait ques times aside from new mech releases.

Not picking on 70+ ton mech pilots, the Hankyu kills other lights with ease as well.

[KharnZor]

GrimRiver, on 12 August 2015 - 09:24 AM, said:

Here is the video https://youtu.be/apFVcJlyEJY?t=3m46s

Ok.
What i see in that footage is a lot of glancing hits. No real focused fire on any particular component and it most certainly soaked some damage due to that.
All in all its not enough to prove (to me at least) what you are saying.
Perhaps some guys with prem. time would be willing to get together and actually test the hitboxes properly? That would be the best way to get definitive proof.

[bad arcade kitty]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 14 August 2015 - 12:29 PM, said:

Yeah, every time I try a god mode mech I get one shot. Damn my good ping

i saw a player with 700 ping doing fine in an ach

[Adiuvo]

Dino Might, on 14 August 2015 - 12:29 PM, said:

Remove the quirks and then rebalance Clan small lasers and small pulse lasers to be closer to IS. Simply make Clan ER small do 4 damage and Clan Small Pulse do 5 damage.

Then, no more issues with the ACH. It then has FS9 firepower with Clan XL durability, slightly slower, but longer range and smaller profile. It would be much more balanced with the other lights.

Then they need to fix the FS9 med. pulse boat to get that thing back into the realm of reasonableness. Both would still be quite good - in fact, they'd remain the best lights, but like the Timby and Scrow post-nerf, wouldn't quite be as head and shoulders over the rest of their peers.

Even though I used hyperbole previously, in all seriousness, I do NOT want the ACH nerfed into oblivion. I have them. I want to play them and have fun! I don't want a mindless murder machine that can slaughter every other light in a 1v1 battle. I want to have to worry about whether or not that dance of death is going to be worth the trades in armor at the end.

Or instead we could buff other lights into some realm of uselessness instead of leaving them completely worse than every other class like they are currently. The ACH has brought it pretty close to parity, but the match impact of an ACH is still less than that of the best mechs in other classes.

[Mystere]

Adiuvo, on 14 August 2015 - 02:34 PM, said:

Or instead we could buff other lights into some realm of uselessness instead of leaving them completely worse than every other class like they are currently. The ACH has brought it pretty close to parity, but the match impact of an ACH is still less than that of the best mechs in other classes.

And which should be the proverbial big picture that people should be more concerned about. Instead, we get people nitpicking every little difference that will still not amount to a hill of beans within the greater scheme of things.