241 replies to this topic

[Dino Might]

FupDup, on 13 August 2015 - 08:59 AM, said:

The Jenny IIC has the advantages of more weapon space, more high-mounted guns (6 instead of 2), and higher speed if you use a big engine. The Cheeta's advantages over it are ECM and not being a walking CT.

So, the Jenny IIC isn't going to be obsolete, it's easily going to rank among the top lights when it drops.

The Jenny IIC will probably make me quit this game if it comes out as expected...
I'm hoping Heavy Gear Assault is into beta by then.

[Gas Guzzler]

Hades Trooper, on 13 August 2015 - 06:14 AM, said:

I would say if and when it's decided if it's OP, which to me it isn't as IS have been using those Firestarter brokenness for years now, it's just the shoe being on the other foot but the IS just rage more and long enough they will get there wishes.

they always do, IS is Russ's love child and he'll soon nerf the ACH once the paywall goes away and he's not making buckets from it anymore.

Just like the timber. perhaps they will wait till the next wave of clans are due so people will want to ride the next 1 trick pony to encourage sales

LOL. Everytime my team rolls clanners in CW its all "OP IS quirks"

Clanner scrubs rage just as hard.

Just to remind you that ACH's legs are tankier than an FS9's, AND you can't pop them with a ST blow out. So, its a slightly different situation. Neither ACH or FS9 is a problem at all if you can aim, so you if you had trouble with FS9's, its on you.

Timber Wolf nerfs are pretty minor, still one of the best heavies in the game.

[Surn]

7 mpl grasshopper...4 alpha strikes over a minute...one did zero damage even though the AC was stopped against a wall. AC SURVIVES? Wtf

[Dino Might]

MechregSurn, on 13 August 2015 - 09:08 AM, said:

7 mpl grasshopper...4 alpha strikes over a minute...one did zero damage even though the AC was stopped against a wall. AC SURVIVES? Wtf

That's not a chassis issue necessarily. That could be hitreg/aim issue. Again, let's look at the objective list of things that make it OP. It's not based on some personal anecdote. The thing is way more powerful than any other light besides the FS9. The FS9 is still hailed as the most powerful IS light, and is head and shoulders above the rest, (i.e., the FS9 is OP compared to other lights). The ACH is better than the FS9, and the FS9 is OP, so the ACH is OP.

What to do? Nerf the ACH and FS9 individually, and then buff lights across the board, so that you get parity between lights, and make them more relevant as an entire class of mechs. Don't just give us two light mechs that are worth a crap in the 12 man battle and then call them balanced. That's not balance, it's, "play these mechs or you suck." And you want people to keep playing? When all they can do to remain relevant is play mechs they don't particularly enjoy? Thanks for not trying to destroy MWO.

[Surn]

Last night on Mordor if I had taken a video, we would have a Fergusson riot on the forums over the AC. Of course it is hitbox/hitreg.

On a side note, in CW the inner sphere does not have streak boats to counter this mech.

Edited by MechregSurn, 13 August 2015 - 09:26 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

And also, let's not forget a REAL heat affects table would go a LONG way in balancing vomiting boats of all classes on both sides of the ISvClan OP arguments...

[Sarlic]

The amount of people who are defending the ACH is just disgusting. Powercreep much?

Good definition why this game is turning another stomp fest with poor balancing if you get the Community involved.

No offense, just stating a fact.

Normally i wouldnt let me slip into a rage thread. But this is just common sense. The ACH has everything with practically none drawbacks.

I am no man to call giant nerfs. But as i stated before: small profile, ECM, hell of a punch, good mounts and speed. Every clanner wet dream for the purist. Being realistic as i am i dont go in a stupid defense mode 'Everything is fine, L2P, aim' or whatever.

One thing is certain: it needs a drawback. Currently it has zero.

Edited by Sarlic, 13 August 2015 - 09:35 AM.

[Lugh]

Dimento Graven, on 13 August 2015 - 08:26 AM, said:

Right back at you, blow hard.

"Clan weaknesses"...

Lessee, per weight class on average, and for the most part, they have:

More armor
Larger alpha
Faster
XL's that don't die with one torso loss
Longer reach
Higher DPS
Higher percentage of ECM carriers now

The "two" weaknesses that the IS could count on is most clan 'mechs have weaker legs than IS, and most clan pilots alpha like crazy and overheat in brawling situations.

You tell me, what am I missing here? What specific clan weaknesses are you thinking about? The lack of a tertiary color choice in camo?

You can max your armor to very similiar levels at the same tonnage?
The larger alpha is at a much larger heat cost.
Faster than what? Your poorly built mech? When you are playing competitively the 89kph is the sweet spot for firepower and speed. Learn to build to that speed, it's possible ON MANY of the IS mechs you deem inferior.
I'm not sure what maps you are playing on but even on the 'open' Alpine Peaks and Caustic valley I have ZERO problem finding approaches to get in range to BRAWL, let alone trade at less than 600m
Higher DPS? Are you mental ?http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/equipment
Take a look at the weapons differences range from .15 that is POINT15 to .4 on your most common weapons, and at 1.25 on the ERPPC. You also have shorter exposure times with faster burns in the lasers. That means you can duck and cover and not take return fire, whereas your clan pal is just finishing his first burn in many cases when you are ready to do your second....
Oh and this last point with the higher percentage of ECM carriers PURE GOLD. Yes because CLAN MECH CHOICES ARE SO FRICKING LIMITED.

*sigh*

[Surn]

89 kph is only a sweet spot due to ecm death balls of clan mechs.

[Deathlike]

Fitchi, on 13 August 2015 - 06:13 AM, said:

What? In CW one of them got full duration 3xLPL in his back and took zero damage.
From my point of view I really don't care if its a hitbox or a hitreg issue, but this
and the leg buff just makes them ridiculous.

Why aren't you legging it?

[Lugh]

Dimento Graven, on 13 August 2015 - 08:35 AM, said:

For CW I'd be ok with the current 'balance' too, IF, PGI would pull their heads from their rears and make any Clan v IS matches 10v12, OR, give the IS 15 extra tons for its drop deck when facing clans. The numbers for the Turkayyid event made it plain: Clans did LESS damage than IS and yet were able to destroy more 'mechs than the IS. If you want to maintain a superior 'technological' edge to Clan fine, but you have to let the IS bring forth superior numbers to balance it. Whatever Yogurt, just because your lazy butt happens to be planted in a clan 'mech does not automagically grant you sooper leet skillz...

No it does not. What grants me slightly better than average skills, is this uncanny thinking ability I possess to assess what I have, what my team has, and what the enemy is displaying as having. I can then best assess how, when and where to move and maximize my contribution to the team.

I've only been back to the game about 2 months now, and I'm having fun in all the clan mechs I didn't get to pilot in the last 2 years.

If you would learn to build a good mech, and then learn how to apply that good build in just about every situation you would fair better.
And you wouldn't ***** and moan about differences between to two sides.

I am personally loving the fact that mathematically the clans only come out ~10-15% better than the IS. Not the LORE version of 165% to 200% better.

That would be overkill. And the crying from people that don't bother to understand their opponents, like you, would fill an ocean of satisfaction.

MechregSurn, on 13 August 2015 - 09:36 AM, said:

89 kph is only a sweet spot due to ecm death balls of clan mechs.

Wrong. It was a sweetspot even before then because it gave you the most mobility to pop tart to win in comp play too well before the ECM levels of today.

[Gas Guzzler]

Lugh, on 13 August 2015 - 09:32 AM, said:

You can max your armor to very similiar levels at the same tonnage?
The larger alpha is at a much larger heat cost.
Faster than what? Your poorly built mech? When you are playing competitively the 89kph is the sweet spot for firepower and speed. Learn to build to that speed, it's possible ON MANY of the IS mechs you deem inferior.
I'm not sure what maps you are playing on but even on the 'open' Alpine Peaks and Caustic valley I have ZERO problem finding approaches to get in range to BRAWL, let alone trade at less than 600m
Higher DPS? Are you mental ?http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/equipment
Take a look at the weapons differences range from .15 that is POINT15 to .4 on your most common weapons, and at 1.25 on the ERPPC. You also have shorter exposure times with faster burns in the lasers. That means you can duck and cover and not take return fire, whereas your clan pal is just finishing his first burn in many cases when you are ready to do your second....
Oh and this last point with the higher percentage of ECM carriers PURE GOLD. Yes because CLAN MECH CHOICES ARE SO FRICKING LIMITED.

*sigh*

Please compare a Grasshopper 5H vomit build to the Timber Wolf.

Hopper:

3 LPL, 4 ML - 25 tons, 53 damage at 297 m, 37 heat (32.4 quirked)
XL 325 - 83 ish kph
18 DHS

Timber:
2 cLPL, 4 cER ML - 16 tons, 54 damage at 445 m, 44 heat
XL 375 - 89 kph
24 DHS


So the Grasshopper alpha has better duration, much worse range, and 75% of the heat, but also 75% of the DHS, and will die from ST loss.

Both builds have 2 JJ. Hopper has no room for another DHS if it dropped one of its JJ.

So as you can see, the hotter weapons are balanced by other means.

[Surn]

GG,

We are trying to reason with an unreasonable person.

The game needs balance or it will die. Relegating inner sphere players to targets for pay to win players will end this game prematurely.

[Event Horizon]

The Arctic Cheetah is not broken. It is a 35 ton mech with 30 ton armor and a large profile that only goes 142kph. It is easy to expose the internals because they have no armor quirks, only structure. The structure quirks are what keep them unnaturally alive for so long despite the fact that the armor blew off so easy. The ECM is great but since there are so many other ECMs out right there now it is easily countered. Counter the ECM and they become weak Firestarters at best.

I have had no problem killing Arctic Cheetahs and being killed in them. They are no harder to kill than a Firestarter. Firestarters have been around for awhile and the Arctic Cheetah just came out. Expect to see lots of them.

If you are having trouble with them I recommend light hunting mechs or IS light mechs for the job. Enjoy the hunt!

Edited by Eugenics, 13 August 2015 - 09:57 AM.

[Skarlock]

Allow me to play devil's advocate. Let me start off by saying I mostly agree with what Rak says, I think the ACH does need to be toned down a bit. However, there are a lot of factors that I think are being ignored.

1. FS9-S has superior range and shorter burn time on its lasers, 0.6 vs. 0.75 for small pulse cheetah. This allows a firestarter to be a much more effective mid range poker vs. a dive and assassinate style of the small pulse cheetah, which I feel is probably the most effective build and style for both mechs. The firestarter is armor/structure wise more fragile than the cheetah, but with a good asymmetrical build and the range advantage you don't have to be as aggressive and can be safer on your pokes due to the much shorter burn time on the lasers and better range.

2. The 6 jump jets on the cheetah generate quite a bit of heat, so for all that extra mobility, you pay the price in having it hurt your damage output. What does it matter if that cheetah is running around like a madman trying to survive if he can't actually return fire due to heat issues? Just like the proverbial spider at the end of a match, he's hard to take down, but what can he really do to fight back? This would only be significant in conquest games where you have to win on caps or assault games where a few lights are desperately trying to prevent a base cap, and no one takes a spider because its great at these infrequent situations. Sure, in some cases a fresh cheetah can clean up vs. 2 or 3 wounded mechs at the end of a match, but virtually any fresh mech could do the same.

3. Clan XL isn't all it's cracked up to be if you actually lose a side torso. Having half your guns, or half your guns + ECM taken away again reduces you to spider levels of alpha, but with strictly worse range. 18 pts of short range damage is only useful against extremely wounded mechs who more than likely wouldn't live much longer anyways. At best you have another player to scout and spot for other mechs and another ECM bubble, who can contribute very little to actual combat at that point. Even losing a single arm cuts your offensive potential by 1/3.

4. I think the Raven is still the far superior mid to long range poking mech due to the fact it can take a decent mid/longish range alpha on the 2X with 3 LL or extreme range with the 4X. It has higher mounted weapons and vastly more heat efficiency than any ERML build cheetah which can eclipse the raven in alpha, but fails miserably on heat efficiency and burn time on the lasers by comparison. Even if the cheetah may have trumped the Firestarter S as the pinnacle short range skirmisher/brawler, the Raven is still a superior choice for longer range engagements in a light. Sure the 3 LL raven has less speed and no JJ, but you don't need speed as much when you have range. For this reason I think it should be acknowledged that clans may have the superior short range light, but I don't think it can be said they have usurped overall light superiority as the Raven is still king IMO of what it does well.

5. For the good of the game, lights (and mediums as well) need to actually matter. With TTK being as small as it is, lights need to be able to provide some actual use to the team that would not be better served by a heavier mech. The cheetah IMO embodies the useful light mech IMO because it's role is pretty clear. Use ECM to cover your approach, find a tasty target with its back turned, and dump damage on it like no tomorrow, preferably with a pack of friends to end the threat quickly. Lights have never been as popular as heavy mechs, and after they reduced the energy heat reduction on the firestarters and raven 2x, lights made a very small percentage of the queues. Before the cheetah, I've had drops in single queue where literally, not a single light was on either team. I think lights in general need a buff, and like others, I would prefer they bump up all lights in power to compete with the cheetah or excel at something the cheetah can't do well (longer range engagements).

6. There is a huge rebalancing of the entire game coming right around the corner. Since we don't know what this will do, perhaps we should at least wait to see what happens with that before making any changes beforehand. PGI has a history of nerfing something, then nerfing something else, then nerfing a third thing, and having all three of these nerfs destroy specific mechs that rely on all three. There is an ECM change coming which will nerf the cheetah, and there is an overall game balance change coming. Since potentially every single mech in the game will be affected by this rebalance, I don't know if it would be wise to simply implement changes for the cheetah before this has happened.

I am a strictly solo queue player who dips into CW on occasion, so this is my perspective. I do however speak with a lot of top level players who stream, and I honestly don't think it's as cut and dry as some say. There are players who think the cheetah is OP, there are those who think it's inferior to the FS9, and yet others who think it's different but more or less balanced. For this reason I'm looking forward to it being introduced in competitive scenes to see if it really outperforms or underperforms. In group and single queue I feel there are too many variables in player skill of each team and team composition to give it a fair evaluation. I think in order to really determine the mechs worth, you have to stress it under conditions where everyone knows exactly what they are doing and are properly communicating, as well as being in possession of the necessary mechanical skills (accuracy in shooting) to properly test those hitboxes. As someone who regularly 2 shots cheetah legs, I don't know if it's because the pilot is bad, or because I'm good, or maybe it's because I have fairly low ping that they aren't that threatening to me. At the same time, the cheetah of all my mechs has the best k/d ratio and win ratio by a significant margin. I don't feel however that my personal experiences are the be all and end all of how good or bad or overpowered this mech is.

[Dimento Graven]

"sigh" indeed...

Lugh, on 13 August 2015 - 09:32 AM, said:

You can max your armor to very similiar levels at the same tonnage?

Great, you're still doing more damage per alpha than I am because clans can typically take more weaponry to the battle...

Quote

The larger alpha is at a much larger heat cost.

Big whoop. Without an actual heat affects table, and the clan ability to add more double heat sinks, that is a nearly non-existent problem.

Quote

Faster than what? Your poorly built mech? When you are playing competitively the 89kph is the sweet spot for firepower and speed. Learn to build to that speed, it's possible ON MANY of the IS mechs you deem inferior.

Yeah, pull your head from your butt. Many of those 89kph builds the IS has options for either require us to load an XL engine, granting you the ability to kill us off with one lost torso, OR, sacrificing firepower to load a much heavier STANDARD engine just so that we can survive that side torso loss. We don't get the XL+firepower+survivability option that clanners get with all their 'mechs.

Quote

I'm not sure what maps you are playing on but even on the 'open' Alpine Peaks and Caustic valley I have ZERO problem finding approaches to get in range to BRAWL, let alone trade at less than 600m

Yeah, IF the enemy is willing to cooperate with me and let me get to them undercover, sure, no problem, and in the public queue more often than not, stupid play on the part of clan pilots DOES allow that option, however, in CW... Not so much...

Quote

Higher DPS? Are you mental ?http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/equipment
Take a look at the weapons differences range from .15 that is POINT15 to .4 on your most common weapons, and at 1.25 on the ERPPC. You also have shorter exposure times with faster burns in the lasers. That means you can duck and cover and not take return fire, whereas your clan pal is just finishing his first burn in many cases when you are ready to do your second....

Yeah, ignoring lasers the IS has a very SLIGHT advantage on SOME of the ballistics, on other ballistics the DPS is the same, but of course the DPT is a whole other story, which again goes to allowing clan 'mechs higher alphas.

And your idiotic 'burn time' point is stupid, at most .25 seconds... BIG f'ing whoop, you're doing MORE damage at a LONGER range with a LIGHTER weapon that takes up LESS slots than the IS equivalent. The cool down times are the same as far as I've checked, so I don't know how a clanner isn't able to fire back when he wants. It's at most a .25 second duration in firing time difference...

Of course again, with each ton and every two slots you save with your smaller, lighter weapons you're able to load up another two slot, 1 ton double heat sink, further ameliorating the supposed 'heat issue'.

On the LRMS, of course if you consider the IS advantage in LRMs as a true balance, haha, I should call you all sorts of names, considering that the latest batch of clan 'mechs seems to have tripled the number of ECM carrying clans out on the battlefield. OH, and let's not forget that once the faster clan 'mechs close in under 180 meters, the IS LRM DPS is ZERO...

Quote

Oh and this last point with the higher percentage of ECM carriers PURE GOLD. Yes because CLAN MECH CHOICES ARE SO FRICKING LIMITED.

*sigh*

Yeah OH SO limited, if you have a chassis where ONE variant carries an ECM, EVERY variant of that chassis has the potential to carry ECM. It's SUCH a hardship choosing between which laser vomit, or ballistic vomit, or missile boat variant you want to carry, considering that each of your 'limited' options is better than 99% of the equivalent IS options.

[Gas Guzzler]

MechregSurn, on 13 August 2015 - 09:51 AM, said:

GG,

We are trying to reason with an unreasonable person.

The game needs balance or it will die. Relegating inner sphere players to targets for pay to win players will end this game prematurely.

On the other hand I wouldn't necessarily say that Clan mechs are instant win buttons. MAYBE, I would say an IS vs Clan match that came down to the wire and was extremely close with the Clan team winning, JUST MAYBE I would say the reason we lost was because Clan mechs were better.

That instance is just so rare though, that I don't really care that much. Normally its quite lopsided one way or the other.

Like I said before, I WISH we had a 75 tonner with reasonable mobility that could trade with a Timber Wolf at 500-600m. If only there was some mech that could fill that role that might be coming out soon... (hint hint nudge nudge!!)

[Viges]

Sarlic, on 13 August 2015 - 08:04 AM, said:

I never said it was P2W.

You didn't

[Dimento Graven]

Lugh, on 13 August 2015 - 09:41 AM, said:

No it does not. What grants me slightly better than average skills, is this uncanny thinking ability I possess to assess what I have, what my team has, and what the enemy is displaying as having. I can then best assess how, when and where to move and maximize my contribution to the team.

Oh you're so full of ****, it's incredible. We see the same things, we attempt to do the same things, but clanners with their speed, range, DPS, and survivability advantages, means that even if the IS matches you tactic for tactic, and does the EXACT SAME amount of damage as you do, they STILL LOSE!

Again, since an IS 'mech requires a LOT less damage on average to kill than a Clan 'mech, the clans actually have to make MORE mistakes over a given match than their IS equivalents to lose.

Quote

I've only been back to the game about 2 months now, and I'm having fun in all the clan mechs I didn't get to pilot in the last 2 years.

If you would learn to build a good mech, and then learn how to apply that good build in just about every situation you would fair better.
And you wouldn't ***** and moan about differences between to two sides.

Again, you're assuming I'm making bad builds. Far from it. This isn't an L2P situation, it's an "I'll teach your grandmother to suck eggs". I haven't taken a break from the game, I've been playing and learning and watching and observing and regardless of your overinflated opinion of yourself and your fellow clan pilots intelligence, it's the 'mech giving you your advantage, not the fact that because you've chosen to play clan the gods have granted you extra skills.

Quote

I am personally loving the fact that mathematically the clans only come out ~10-15% better than the IS. Not the LORE version of 165% to 200% better.

That would be overkill. And the crying from people that don't bother to understand their opponents, like you, would fill an ocean of satisfaction.

Again, you can go procreate with yourself. Yes 10 to 15 percent difference, thank god it's only that. There's no "understanding" of the opponent you can do that will help you win consistently when they are given a 165% to 200% better technological advantage. The ONLY thing you can do is overwhelm the enemy at that point, which is what lore had the IS doing to the clans.

MWO does NOT allow the IS to 'overwhelm' the Clans with their numbers. It locked at 12v12, which mech per mech, that 10 to 15 percent adds up.

Quote

Wrong. It was a sweetspot even before then because it gave you the most mobility to pop tart to win in comp play too well before the ECM levels of today.

Yeah sure he's wrong, uh huh, the fact that your weapons ALREADY doing more damage per shot, are doing FULL damage a LONGER distances vs. the IS's need to get MUCH CLOSER to do full (but still lesser) damage has absolutely NOTHING to do with his correctly resetting that 'sweetspot'.

There's a clanner sweetspot and an IS sweetspot, they aren't the same.

[Lugh]

Gas Guzzler, on 13 August 2015 - 09:41 AM, said:

Please compare a Grasshopper 5H vomit build to the Timber Wolf.

Hopper:

3 LPL, 4 ML - 25 tons, 53 damage at 297 m, 37 heat (32.4 quirked)
XL 325 - 83 ish kph
18 DHS

Timber:
2 cLPL, 4 cER ML - 16 tons, 54 damage at 445 m, 44 heat
XL 375 - 89 kph
24 DHS


So the Grasshopper alpha has better duration, much worse range, and 75% of the heat, but also 75% of the DHS, and will die from ST loss.

Both builds have 2 JJ. Hopper has no room for another DHS if it dropped one of its JJ.

So as you can see, the hotter weapons are balanced by other means.

Here you go

[smurfy]http://mwo.smurfy-ne...0a74618018a5927[/smurfy]

86kph 2 JJ and all the weapons you asked for, sadly it lost 1 DHS at 16 from 17, but with quirks and personal skills you can handle that right?

Let's just ignore the fact that you are comparing a mech that is 5 TONS LIGHTER to another mech. And your firepower is ~ equal, with quirks for cooling BETTER. And oh yeah cycling faster than that 5 ton heavier mech

ACCELERATION RATE (LOW SPEED): 10.00 % ACCELERATION RATE (MED SPEED): 10.00 % ACCELERATION RATE (HIGH SPEED): 10.00 % ADDITIONAL STRUCTURE (CT): 11.00 ADDITIONAL ARMOR (LL): 15.00 ADDITIONAL ARMOR (RL): 15.00 ADDITIONAL ARMOR (LA): 11.00 ADDITIONAL ARMOR (RA): 11.00 MEDIUM LASER COOLDOWN: 10.00 % ENERGY COOLDOWN: 10.00 % ENERGY HEAT GENERATION: -12.50 %

The problem isn't the game. It's YOU, not applying what you know to get what you want / need out of the mech.