232 replies to this topic

[Ultimax]

El Bandito, on 17 August 2015 - 05:00 PM, said:

In that case, it is much better to simply boat lasers and forgo ACs in the first place due to better timed alphas. I have seen the tryhard mountain. There were no AC + laser builds there. All the Hellbies and Timbies had laser vomit and Gauss.

There aren't any Battlemasters with Medium Pulse Lasers there either, but that isn't stopping you.


You take some lasers to add to your output, you take the UACs if you don't like Gauss and want something other than all lasers.


It's not as powerful as all lasers, but it functions well in very aggressive games where overheating is an issue for all laser boats.

The Ebon Jaguar is probably the best mech for this kind of build.

[Thunder Child]

Regarding the Magshot, AP Gauss, whatever it is. I think for it's damage profile, it'd probably need a 2 or 3 sec CD. Being able to spit out 8 DPS for 2 tons (+ammo) and no heat seems a little crazy.

[Khobai]

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Also, I doesn't really matter if it's a Fireball, or a constant Stream

flamers as a constant stream has never worked.

id like to see the fireball idea. because then flamers would add a set amount of heat to the target every time it hit.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 17 August 2015 - 04:53 PM, said:

yeah because we really need LBX gauss that no one other than fupdup the magshot troll will use.

although I would like to see some area denial weapons like mines. anything that discourages deathballing would probably be beneficial.

It's not an LB-X, it's basically a 0.5 ton AC/2.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Magshot

Of course, in MWO it would have to have a slower firing rate than our current AC/2 (I think around 3-4 second cooldown).

However, I think that it should probably get a little bit more range to balance it against the otherwise superior Clan AP Gauss...bump it up to 360m or so.

Edited by FupDup, 17 August 2015 - 05:23 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Ultimatum X, on 17 August 2015 - 05:20 PM, said:

There aren't any Battlemasters with Medium Pulse Lasers there either, but that isn't stopping you.


You take some lasers to add to your output, you take the UACs if you don't like Gauss and want something other than all lasers.


It's not as powerful as all lasers, but it functions well in very aggressive games where overheating is an issue for all laser boats.

The Ebon Jaguar is probably the best mech for this kind of build.

A single IS UAC/5 makes for a decent Gauss surrogate since the time it takes Large or ER Large lasers to burn is often long enough to squeeze off three rounds. Not as good at longer ranges, but decent at mid-range and pretty great in a brawl.

If they reduced the jam chance, it would be a staple for me instead of a curious experiment.

[FupDup]

bad arcade kitty, on 17 August 2015 - 05:18 PM, said:

magshot would make mg and ac/2 obsolete and on top of that it's inner sphere only and is way later on the time line

they will never introduce it

The MG and AC/2 are already obsolete.

[Y E O N N E]

bad arcade kitty, on 17 August 2015 - 05:18 PM, said:

magshot would make mg and ac/2 obsolete and on top of that it's inner sphere only and is way later on the time line

they will never introduce it

Clans have the AP Gauss, which is the same thing but does one more point of damage.

AC/2 could be made decent if they gave it a significant heat reduction and rate of fire increase without removing any of the rattle. It has potential to be genuinely useful, they just refuse to implement it.

[Thunder Child]

Khobai, on 17 August 2015 - 05:21 PM, said:

flamers as a constant stream has never worked.

id like to see the fireball idea. because then flamers would add a set amount of heat to the target every time it hit.

I always liked the visual affect of the Flamer Streams, but I suppose they could always have a similar graphic, but in a quick Blast, instead of a continuous stream. Or just a Fireball. Someone needs to make a Gif of a Spider doing a Kamehameha in Mid Flight.
The question regarding mechanics should be, Should it add a Debuff to the target like Narc and Tag, but as extra Heat Gen, or should it just apply a static heat value to the targets heatscale. Personally, I am partial to the first, because it prevents Stunlocking, but still causes the target to have heat issues.

[darkchylde]

Nightmare1, on 17 August 2015 - 08:22 AM, said:

We don't need more nerfs.

We just need sized hardpoints.

I say, wait for the rebalance and for goodness's sake, no crazy nerfing cycles!!! I'm so ready for this game to just pick a place to perch so that we can play and have fun without any more of these month-to-month changes that are so disruptive!

Edit: Keep in mind...

We had PPCs/ERPPCs as meta. They got nerfed.

We then had ACs and PPCs/ERPPCs as meta. ACs got nerfed.

We had Gauss and PPCs/ERPPCs as meta. Gauss got nerfed.

We still had Gauss and PPCs/ERPPCs as meta. PPCs/ERPPCs got nerfed.

ACs started making a comeback into the meta. They got nerfed again.

About the only thing left is lasers. Nerf that and you just start the cycle all over again. Thank goodness PPCs/ERPPCs recently got a buff so that they are somewhat useful again!

I say, let things stand as they are until the rebalance. Hopefully PGI will have the good sense not to try to balance everything against everything since that is impossible in this game, and will instead balance weapons within their disciplines (brawlers balanced against brawlers, snipers against snipers, etc.). Otherwise, it'll just be another year-long game of "spin the nerf wheel."

Sized Hardpoints are needed plus a rework of the heat system.

[Khobai]

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Sized Hardpoints are needed plus a rework of the heat system.

I disagree with sized hardpoints. quirks largely accomplish the same thing sized hardpoints would, except instead of being a hard system, quirks are a soft system. In a game that revolves around customization, players dont like being told they cant do things, so a soft system is better.

sized hardpoints simply arnt needed if weapons/quirks are balanced. all we really need are better balanced weapons and quirks. Supposedly PGI is working on that with their new battle value system....

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rework of the heat system.

again thats a pipedream. game is 3 years in development theyre not going to redo the whole system at this point. its simply not a realistic expectation.

the best we can hope for is a ghost heat update, some stat adjustments on weapons (i.e. decreased range on clan lasers) and some quirk adjustments based on the new battle value system.

Edited by Khobai, 17 August 2015 - 07:06 PM.

[Mystere]

cdlord, on 17 August 2015 - 06:39 AM, said:

No specific mechs, no specific faction, no specific side, no specific laser, no specific quirk; as it should be.

Lasers across the board need substantial nerfs.

When I see 90% of mechs in matches run laserboats, there's something wrong. Had the honor of getting stomped by a well known comp group and guess what, they were all running laserboats. Nary a missile or AC among them.

And a nerf doesn't even have to apply to a laser, could be a general heat rescale.

#bringthehatred

That's what you get for whining about all of the other weapons systems. They've all been nerfed into irrelevance.

[DivineEvil]

Khobai, on 17 August 2015 - 06:53 PM, said:

again thats a pipedream. game is 3 years in development theyre not going to redo the whole system at this point. its simply not a realistic expectation.

the best we can hope for is a ghost heat update, some stat adjustments on weapons (i.e. decreased range on clan lasers) and some quirk adjustments based on the new battle value system.

Heat system does not require a lot of rework really. Like I've previously said, it requires the reduction in base heat capacity and increase in heatsink efficiency. The very idea of the majoriy of stock loadouts of either factions is a set of different weapons with an aim for different ranges and situations. Current heat values undermines this concept by allowing large arrays of the same weapons firing in alpha-strikes multiple times.

- Laser spam will cease to work, as it will overheat the mech in almost any circumstances and players will be encouraged to use a multitude of different weapons to remain effective in combat.
- PPCs and Large lasers would take a hit, but will still work since you cannot boat them nearly as much, and increased heat cooloff will allow to spend less time between shots when proper amount of heatsinks is in place.
- LRMs wouldn't be as easy to spam, especially the big ones.
- SRMs and all Ballistics will be just fine, since they're almost always used in circumstances, where increased heat dispersion will compensate for decreased heat capacity, given the heat buildup is thoughfully managed.

Edited by DivineEvil, 17 August 2015 - 07:37 PM.

[Lexx]

OK lasers are too common, they should be nerfed.

I guess I need to rebuild my Top Dog to run 2 PPC and 7 flamers instead.

Because lasers are bad and I shouldn't use them anymore.

[Knight Magus]

Khobai, on 17 August 2015 - 06:53 PM, said:

I disagree with sized hardpoints. quirks largely accomplish the same thing sized hardpoints would, except instead of being a hard system, quirks are a soft system. In a game that revolves around customization, players dont like being told they cant do things, so a soft system is better.

sized hardpoints simply arnt needed if weapons/quirks are balanced. all we really need are better balanced weapons and quirks. Supposedly PGI is working on that with their new battle value system....



again thats a pipedream. game is 3 years in development theyre not going to redo the whole system at this point. its simply not a realistic expectation.

the best we can hope for is a ghost heat update, some stat adjustments on weapons (i.e. decreased range on clan lasers) and some quirk adjustments based on the new battle value system.

Have to agree sized hard points are needed. We have mechs wielding a lot more firepower then they ever did in Battletech because we are allowed to fit guass rifles in machine gun ports and so on.

[IraqiWalker]

Knight Magus, on 17 August 2015 - 07:48 PM, said:

Have to agree sized hard points are needed. We have mechs wielding a lot more firepower then they ever did in Battletech because we are allowed to fit guass rifles in machine gun ports and so on.

darkchylde, on 17 August 2015 - 05:41 PM, said:

Sized Hardpoints are needed plus a rework of the heat system.

Yo Dawg, I heard you like slots, so I put slots in your slots, so you can slot, while you slot.

Sorry, but sized hardpoints are NOT needed. Not to mention we already have a cost system for weapons. It's called SLOTS.

I can easily drop the "lore", and "rulebook" arguments here, but there really is no need. There is no logical reason why sized hardpoints should be implemented. They make no sense. If you have the tonnage, and slots, you should be able to mount the weapon you want.


ESPECIALLY, since they don't prevent boating. Think of this little tidbit. You have 3 energy hardpoints on the HBR Prime's Left Torso, you will need at MINIMUM, 1 slot on each of those hardpoints. Lo and behold, you are still boating those 3 lasers, plus the two in the Left arm from the A config, plus the one from the Right arm. Maybe even an ERPPC in that one, because 2 slots for 1 hardpoint is not much to ask.

Hmmm, I can clearly see the boating be unaffected. All you'll really hurt is builds that slam one big gun instead of several tiny ones. Because suddenly, that RVN can't put an AC 20 in it's ST.

TL;DR: No thank you.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 17 August 2015 - 08:01 PM.

[Serpieri]

IraqiWalker, on 17 August 2015 - 07:52 PM, said:

Yo Dawg, I heard you like slots, so I put slots in your slots, so you can slot, while you slot.

Sorry, but sized hardpoints are NOT needed. Not to mention we already have a cost system for weapons. It's called SLOTS.

I can easily drop the "lore", and "rulebook" arguments here, but there really is no need. There is no logical reason why sized hardpoints should be implemented. They make no sense. If you have the tonnage, and slots, you should be able to mount the weapon you want.

The lore and rulebook would be a completely open system. Mechs in battletech did not have hard points, a mech can be stripped and rebuilt from the ground up - heck you can even build your own new design. In MWO we are already restricted by slots and reducing what can be put into them would help alleviate how much damage a mech can alpha which in this game is a problem since we can all front load this damage directly to a mechs center torso.

[Khobai]

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it requires the reduction in base heat capacity and increase in heatsink efficiency.

all that would accomplish is making dual gauss outright superior to everything else. because dual gauss would be the only way to still achieve high pinpoint damage for minimal heat.

Say you lowered heat capacity by half and doubled heat dissipation. So now people cant alphastrike large amounts of weapons... what are people going to do in response? Theyre just going to group dual gauss with low tonnage lasers. The amount of pinpoint damage will still be abusive and all the same problems will still exist. So congratulations youve just made any mech that cant dual gauss completely obsolete with your new heat system. At least before we had choices.

im sorry but that idea is poorly thought out and is not the correct way to fix the heat system.

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Have to agree sized hard points are needed. We have mechs wielding a lot more firepower then they ever did in Battletech because we are allowed to fit guass rifles in machine gun ports and so on.

Except battletech allowed you to put gauss rifles on virtually any mech you wanted as part of a level C refit.

Spoiler

Sized hardpoints also dont prevent boating, as has already been mentioned. It literally does nothing to fix any of the games actual problems. All it does is limit customization in a way that doesnt improve the game at all.

Again quirks largely accomplish the same thing as sized hardpoints, which is to make certain weapons more appealing on certain mechs. Except quirks do it in a way that doesnt heavily restrict customization.

Edited by Khobai, 17 August 2015 - 08:28 PM.

[Spheroid]

Actually minor field refits are far, far more common than factory level rebuilds. Those equipment swaps to have rules and limits.

[IraqiWalker]

Serpieri, on 17 August 2015 - 08:03 PM, said:

The lore and rulebook would be a completely open system. Mechs in battletech did not have hard points, a mech can be stripped and rebuilt from the ground up - heck you can even build your own new design. In MWO we are already restricted by slots and reducing what can be put into them would help alleviate how much damage a mech can alpha which in this game is a problem since we can all front load this damage directly to a mechs center torso.

The problem is that you don't penalize boating builds. They are absolutely unaffected. So the ones accused of being the biggest offenders, are not hurt by it.

Or are you going to give me 3 hardpoints, and not enough slots to use all 3?

Only builds I can think of would get hurt are ballistic builds. Everything else will still be fine.

No disrespect, and I do not intend any of my posts to be condescending, but I've seen this discussion play out many times before. I have yet to see one mech design, that can make a solid argument for why sized hardpoints should be used.

Sure, you'd be able to stop an Orion variant, and one Atlas variant from packing 2 LBX 10s in the Right Torso, not that anyone does that as anything more than a joke build; but I don't see that harming the 8SPL Firestarter. Or the 7 MPL Timberwolf, or literally any other high alpha build, that relies on boating.

2xAC20 builds will probably get even rarer, until someone makes enough fuss about how there are only 3 mechs in the game that can do it, so they should increase ballistic sized hardpoint slots, because there aren't any ballistic boating builds out there, to begin with, other than the Dakkawolf, or the 3xUAC5 jager.

All sized hardpoints will do, is harm unconventional builds, like the aforementioned AC 20 raven, or the 2 ERLL Urbanmech.

Basically, I have not seen a single example that corroborates the claim that sized hardpoints will do anything to the game other than reduce the number of viable mechs, and encourage boating.

Spheroid, on 17 August 2015 - 08:15 PM, said:

Actually minor field refits are far, far more common than factory level rebuilds. Those equipment swaps to have rules and limits.

Common or not, if you had the C-Bills, and time, you could make a 20 medium laser Atlas, with an XL 400, MASC, and TSM, plus a lot of other things.

which was his point.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 17 August 2015 - 08:18 PM.

[Khobai]

see my post above... its a level C refit. Its not even a very complicated refit.