232 replies to this topic

[DivineEvil]

I think we just need a reduction to the basic heat capacity. It seems that laser alpha-strikes are way too easy to use across the board, and also that the number of heatsinks doesn't affect the heat efficiency compared to tonnage they take. This makes the game way too alpha-strike oriented, based on that 30 heat cap basis.

If that change would make a game way too slow, then we should have SHS to have 1.4 efficiencies, and DHS to get true 2.0 efficiencies. That would make SHS a little bit better and will drive game into more brawly, heat-control encouraging environment.

[stealthraccoon]

Mandate chainfire

Increase penalties for alpha strikes?

...

PROFIT!

Edited by stealthraccoon, 17 August 2015 - 07:21 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

I think we just need a reduction to the basic heat capacity.

Nope. The problem isnt high heat capacity. The problem is ghost heat is too easily circumvented.

By linking CERML and CLPL in the same ghost heat group, the problem would largely be solved. Linking the two weapons would massively increase the heat generated by CERML/CLPL laser vomit and would largely have the same effect as lowering heat capacity. The difference is, lowering heat capacity across the board nerfs ALL weapons that generate heat, even the ones that arnt a problem, while a ghost heat update only nerfs the weapons that are causing problems.

Im not saying the heat system isnt screwed up, it definitely is, but expecting a heatscale revamp is simply not being realistic. This game is 3 years in development theyre not going to strip out a core aspect of the game and completely redo it. The reality is were stuck with the current heat system, and any fixes that we come up with need to work within the confines of the current heat system.

Yes ghost heat is awful and I hate it but the truth is its not going anywhere... so lets at least make sure ghost heat is doing what its supposed to be doing which is stopping crap like laser vomit.

Edited by Khobai, 17 August 2015 - 07:47 AM.

[Rushmoar]

cdlord, on 17 August 2015 - 07:09 AM, said:

You should read the rest of the discussion.

I get it. Why do poeple boat lasers? Its because the game does not punish you enough for boating them. The reason you see 8 medium pulse lasers on a Grasshopper is because it can fire them and cool of fast enought to fire them again. the heat is not punishing enough enough to use so many at a time. It's not the damage value that that needs nerfing. In my opinion mix load outs should excel over any boating at all. Boat ballistics and you can run out of ammo, Boat missiles and ECM can ruin your day. Boat lasers and you run too hot to sustain any return fire.

Example, most Clan lights just run hot but the quirks let the Cheeta alpha over and over again. Yes cerll have great range just most mechs can cool off fast enough that it can repeat fire as fast a IS LL. If Lasers ran hotter you still think they would be a problem? Or cooled off slower? Why do poeple complain when they drop on a hot map? Because they want to alpha more and I want to believe that mix load outs should have the advantage in these cases.

Would cerll be a problem if a mech only carried 1 or just 2 er mediums?

Edit: My main point is lets see what kind of rabbit PGI will pull out of their hat about rebalance to the mechs. Then we will see if boating lasers will still be an issue.

Edited by Rushmoar, 17 August 2015 - 07:51 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Khobai, on 17 August 2015 - 07:08 AM, said:

we need 2 nerfs:

1) put CERML and CLPL in same ghost heat group to prevent circumvention of ghost heat mechanics

2) decrease the range of clan lasers across the board (specifically CERML and CLPL) because their range advantage over IS weapons is way too good and has forced us into this whole quirk mess.



No theyre really not fine.

CERML and CLPL combos completely circumvent ghost heat while still delivering massive alphas.

Plus the damage/range on those clan lasers is ridiculous. They can alpha you from halfway across the map and still strip off a considerable portion of your armor.



Except a heatscale revamp isnt happening in the foreseeable future. Or likely ever. So why even mention it? The fixes we need are ones that can be applied immediately. Not some pipedream fix thats never coming.

The immediate fixes we need are an update to ghost heat to prevent CERML/CLPL abuse as well as a blanket range decrease on clan lasers.



TTK is already way too short and doesnt need to be even shorter. To properly address the short TTK issue, the correct course of action is to nerf the overpowered weapons rather than buffing the underpowered ones.

lol and CERML and CLPL would then just be used slightly delayed, will hardly change the issue, A fixed heattreshold will always avoid any usage of ghostheat loophole. because then 2 LPl and 2 CML wouldn't even work. And there are so many laservomit combos out there atm that do not even rely on CLPL andC ERML clanlaservomit combos that your point here is getting a bit invalid.

Then range is hardly another point you have here, "half across the map"? Is not even true, and it is hardly more than quirked Is mechs which can reach even further in some cases. The issue AGAIN that applies here is based on alphas with too many lasers at the same time.

Your proposed fixes wouldn't fix much, they just swap a few edgecase scenario, leave a lot other edgy scenarios still applied which then would just multiply. But the entire core issues would still apply: Up to easily 50 heat or more able to be spammed with only a 0,5 second delay.
And we mentioning the heatscale since it is the one and true fix or nearly all the alpha strike warrior issues.

Edited by Lily from animove, 17 August 2015 - 08:06 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

lol and CERML and CLPL would then just eb used slightly delayd, will ahrdly change the issue

please learn how to speak properly before you post on the forums. your inability to communicate properly pretty much invalidates any point you might have been trying to make because I didnt even read it.

[Rushmoar]

Khobai, on 17 August 2015 - 07:50 AM, said:

please learn how to speak properly before you post on the forums. your inability to communicate properly pretty much invalidates any point you might have been trying to make because I didnt even read it.

Pointing out someone's grammer or typing skill is a bit childish. Not everyone here has English as a 1st language. Just respond to the point someone is trying to make and not focus on their language skills. How exactly did your comment contribute to this conversation?

Edit: If people can not under stand a question or comment they will simply pass over it.

Edited by Rushmoar, 17 August 2015 - 08:10 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Khobai, on 17 August 2015 - 07:50 AM, said:

please learn how to speak properly before you post on the forums. your inability to communicate properly pretty much invalidates any point you might have been trying to make because I didnt even read it.

fixed n the above post, just for you.

maybe ghostheat on E weapons should be increased to 1s timer instead 0,5 seconds.

[Gas Guzzler]

Omg you people never learn. Nerfed PPCs into the ground, and lasers become the preferred energy weapon, so naturally they are everywhere, especially in CW where having no ammo restrictions is huge. And now you want lasers nerfed.

Besides, weren't lasers supposed to be very common?

In any case, the laser mixed with Gauss loadouts are better than pure laser vomit, they just take a little more thought to use.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 17 August 2015 - 08:12 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Gas Guzzler, on 17 August 2015 - 08:11 AM, said:

Omg you people never learn. Nerfed PPCs into the ground, and lasers become the preferred energy weapon, so naturally they are everywhere, especially in CW where having no ammo restrictions is huge. And now you want lasers nerfed.

Besides, weren't lasers supposed to be very common?

In any case, the laser mixed with Gauss loadouts are better than pure laser vomit, they just take a little more thought to use.

lasers weren't that common, most mechs were actually having some big and punchy ammo dependen weapons, They had in nearly all cases a small amount of ML or SL as backup wepaons to not be entirely ammo depend or useless once they run ut of ammo. So but they werent common as in "Spammable amounts in this chassis right here" Exceptions were very few dedicatd energyboat mechs. Which mostly came later with the Clan invasion and the DHS reapperaing in the IS.

[CDLord HHGD]

Guy guys! Lets not let this degenerate down to insults and name calling. My OP was direct and forceful only to spurn on discussion of an issue. The first page was pretty darn good. Lets keep it that way. I understand and respect everyone had a different take and solution to the issue. Lets just talk about them.

[Nightmare1]

We don't need more nerfs.

We just need sized hardpoints.

I say, wait for the rebalance and for goodness's sake, no crazy nerfing cycles!!! I'm so ready for this game to just pick a place to perch so that we can play and have fun without any more of these month-to-month changes that are so disruptive!

Edit: Keep in mind...

We had PPCs/ERPPCs as meta. They got nerfed.

We then had ACs and PPCs/ERPPCs as meta. ACs got nerfed.

We had Gauss and PPCs/ERPPCs as meta. Gauss got nerfed.

We still had Gauss and PPCs/ERPPCs as meta. PPCs/ERPPCs got nerfed.

ACs started making a comeback into the meta. They got nerfed again.

About the only thing left is lasers. Nerf that and you just start the cycle all over again. Thank goodness PPCs/ERPPCs recently got a buff so that they are somewhat useful again!

I say, let things stand as they are until the rebalance. Hopefully PGI will have the good sense not to try to balance everything against everything since that is impossible in this game, and will instead balance weapons within their disciplines (brawlers balanced against brawlers, snipers against snipers, etc.). Otherwise, it'll just be another year-long game of "spin the nerf wheel."

Edited by Nightmare1, 17 August 2015 - 08:25 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

I just don't see how nerfimg lasers is a good idea, as it will make energy boats completely obsolete (Resistance 2!! You really want to nerf 75% of the pack just because boating lasers is strong right now?), and will reduce the number of viable mechs to dual Gauss and lots of ballistics. Not very many mechs can do that, but currently the mechs that do are pretty scary, see the Dakka whale for instance, or the JM6-DD.

[Nightmare1]

Rushmoar, on 17 August 2015 - 07:42 AM, said:

I get it. Why do poeple boat lasers? Its because the game does not punish you enough for boating them. The reason you see 8 medium pulse lasers on a Grasshopper is because it can fire them and cool of fast enought to fire them again.

No...the reason why you see that on a Grasshopper is because it's about the only viable build for that sad, sad chassis.

[Lily from animove]

Nightmare1, on 17 August 2015 - 08:22 AM, said:

We don't need more nerfs.

We just need sized hardpoints.

I say, wait for the rebalance and for goodness's sake, no crazy nerfing cycles!!! I'm so ready for this game to just pick a place to perch so that we can play and have fun without any more of these month-to-month changes that are so disruptive!

Edit: Keep in mind...

We had PPCs/ERPPCs as meta. They got nerfed.

We then had ACs and PPCs/ERPPCs as meta. ACs got nerfed.

We had Gauss and PPCs/ERPPCs as meta. Gauss got nerfed.

We still had Gauss and PPCs/ERPPCs as meta. PPCs/ERPPCs got nerfed.

ACs started making a comeback into the meta. They got nerfed again.

About the only thing left is lasers. Nerf that and you just start the cycle all over again. Thank goodness PPCs/ERPPCs recently got a buff so that they are somewhat useful again!

I say, let things stand as they are until the rebalance. Hopefully PGI will have the good sense not to try to balance everything against everything since that is impossible in this game, and will instead balance weapons within their disciplines (brawlers balanced against brawlers, snipers against snipers, etc.). Otherwise, it'll just be another year-long game of "spin the nerf wheel."

well, honestly, the sized hardpoints will not change much fo these issues, DWFcoudl laservomit as it pelase,s even the current meta timervomitwolf could continue vomitting, would just have to place the LPL's in the arms. The impact is low and onyl workign on a few mechs. Most other mechs would just lose a chance makign them keep up with others what the naturally already had.

[Nightmare1]

Gas Guzzler, on 17 August 2015 - 08:26 AM, said:

I just don't see how nerfimg lasers is a good idea, as it will make energy boats completely obsolete (Resistance 2!! You really want to nerf 75% of the pack just because boating lasers is strong right now?), and will reduce the number of viable mechs to dual Gauss and lots of ballistics. Not very many mechs can do that, but currently the mechs that do are pretty scary, see the Dakka whale for instance, or the JM6-DD.

If they nerf lasers through the floor, I'm going to ask for a refund on that pack. I'm tired of putting my faith in PGI just to have them pull the rug out from underneath me.

[Nightmare1]

Lily from animove, on 17 August 2015 - 08:27 AM, said:

well, honestly, the sized hardpoints will not change much fo these issues, DWFcoudl laservomit as it pelase,s even the current meta timervomitwolf could continue vomitting, would just have to place the LPL's in the arms. The impact is low and onyl workign on a few mechs. Most other mechs would just lose a chance makign them keep up with others what the naturally already had.

It would be better than what we have now and would help to counter some of the spam.

The end result though, is that you can't just say, "Nerf it," because there are far-reaching consequences of such actions. In the end, a new meta will just rear its head and then everyone else will say, "Nerf it," starting the cycle anew.

Frankly, out of all the metas we've had to date, I prefer the current laser one. It makes you run hot and doesn't let you peg guys as extreme range like the Gauss and PPC or AC and PPC metas used to do.

Also of note, one reason why we lost our JJs is because of the PPC+AC meta. Every time you people come begging for nerfs with your hands out, the game just tanks a little more. Right now, by some miracle, it feels okay. The upcoming rebalance scares me because I don't have confidence that it will be done right. The clamoring for nerfs just adds to my nervousness.

Pretty soon, we'll just be clubbing each other with light poles on River City because none of our weapons will be functional.

[Almond Brown]

What if the time needed to recover from a Heat based Shut-Down was increased substantially? Say like 20-30s before your Mech comes back on line. If a player wants to hit "O" a lot, good for them, damaging your own machine was never the brightest thing to do in a fight really, but if they do screw up and OH then they stay down, basically for the duration.

I see so many Mechs shut down from overheat and survive due to how fast they recover. Let's make a Shut down a near sure death sentence and if it is done at range, allow the enemy more time to cover a lot of that open ground to get at that shut-down hidey-peeker bastashes...

Edited by Almond Brown, 17 August 2015 - 08:40 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Seriously weapon balance is better than it has been for a long time... Why ruin it...

A competitive team is always going to take the best. If they nerfed lasers tomorrow, and all of a sudden PPCs were the meta again, a competitive team would stomp you using only PPCs, and then you would come on here and call to nerf PPCs.

The reason ACs aren't in an amazing place right now is because they are either short range or DPS weapons. DPS is risky because it requires you to stare. Close range (AC 20) works but requires you to get in close, but comp tier guys don't like that because it is very limiting. That being said, I still see autocannons on a day to day basis and people are still successful with them. However asking to have every weapon be equally viable at top tier play is never ever going to happen.

And sized hardpoint guy: We don't want sized hardpoints.

[Almond Brown]

Nightmare1, on 17 August 2015 - 08:28 AM, said:

If they nerf lasers through the floor, I'm going to ask for a refund on that pack. I'm tired of putting my faith in PGI just to have them pull the rug out from underneath me.

So you DO NOT want PGI to listen to the Players then???? Ever... Remember that PGI only Nerfs based on the most QQ and whiney Posts they receive from the Players.