384 replies to this topic

[spectralthundr]

Imperius, on 18 August 2015 - 06:47 PM, said:

You be quite! I'll tell you this if i see this come across in my team chat. "Please hit R or get locks for me please LRM boat" I know three things, first he is alone, second we are a man down, and third he is a bad LRM pilot.

LRM players are Tier 5 and Tier 4 players. Your damage is spread, you're hardly a threat to most top Tier players that use cover as the number one tactic. The only time people get killed by LRM boats is when they are out numbed or out in the open when they know they shouldn't be.

I rarely and I mean super rarely use LRM's, but a boat can still move with the team and provide fire support effectively. It's the ones that find a spot to camp thinking they're safe that tend to run into trouble. Trying to claim that LRM's can't be effective to either pin a team down or provide fire support on mechs in the open, is just not being honest. I'm sure there are guys out there that can and do play with LRM's effectively who aren't a detriment to a team.

[AJAZX]

How do you find out what tier you are?

[Imperius]

YUyahoo, on 18 August 2015 - 06:34 PM, said:

I don't think this new MM system is any more effective than the old at creating "close matches". The teams I get put on still get stomped game after game after game

Duh I said this on page one and three I think before the patch was even out. It still does average team score. Let me break it down.

If my two friends and I are Tier one the game will give us something like this for teams.
Team one Us
Tier 1
Tier 1
Tier 1
Tier 5
Tier 5
Tier 5
Tier 4
Tier 4
Tier 4
Tier 3
Tier 3
Tier 3
The other team will be
Tier 3
Tier 3
Tier 3
Tier 3
Tier 3
Tier 3
Tier 3
Tier 3
Tier 3
Tier 3
Tier 3
Tier 3
Which unless we really carry hard and bring our meta mechs chances are out Tier 4 and 5's will wipe out in typical NASCAR deathball fashion leaving us out numbered, unless we can kill enough of the enemy before the number tips in their favor.

spectralthundr, on 18 August 2015 - 06:50 PM, said:

I rarely and I mean super rarely use LRM's, but a boat can still move with the team and provide fire support effectively. It's the ones that find a spot to camp thinking they're safe that tend to run into trouble. Trying to claim that LRM's can't be effective to either pin a team down or provide fire support on mechs in the open, is just not being honest. I'm sure there are guys out there that can and do play with LRM's effectively who aren't a detriment to a team.

Let me ask you this who would you rather have on your team as the last man standing. A LRM boat or a direct fire? Your answer the one that you know is right is why you should never have an LRM boat. Don't confuse having LRM's with Boating them.

Edited by Imperius, 18 August 2015 - 06:56 PM.

[bad arcade kitty]

Deathlike, on 18 August 2015 - 05:45 PM, said:

I don't think you even understand how damage accumulates so easily for a missile boat.

Running a Streakboat doesn't actually make you a good player... it really means you're limited to killing Light mechs with the easiest method possible.

I've played them all, but I don't pretend to think "damage" is the same between a missile boat (of any type) and other weapons that inflate damage, but don't actually kill things efficiently.

while damage accumulates easily you cannot say that it's useless or that they are limited to kill light mechs only just because the damage is spread

for instance my last game (pre-patch, bog conquest), my streakcrow killed a griffin who tried to brawl me, then i went on a highground and shooting through the leaves heavily damaged a mad dog in a group of his friends, he didnt' get where i was and hid behind a rock, i boomzoomed and finished him, jumped to the lily pond and fought solo an enforcer, a ferret and a dire wolf, both meds fled heavily damaged and when i switched to the dire my engine blew up from overheat all those 3 were later finished by my team; i did slightly less than 1000 damage and i think was pretty useful for my team... who lost regardless; it was a good game but by no means a some special case... spread damage work when you spread a mad quantity of it

Edited by bad arcade kitty, 18 August 2015 - 06:56 PM.

[AJAZX]

Uh,DUH, how do I find out what my tier rating is. Where do I find it?

[bad arcade kitty]

AJAZX, on 18 August 2015 - 07:05 PM, said:

Uh,DUH, how do I find out what my tier rating is. Where do I find it?

you can't

[spectralthundr]

Gas Guzzler, on 18 August 2015 - 06:49 PM, said:

Deathlike is rarely in meta mechs he just knows hows to build mechs to be effective.

And that's fine, there's a lot of people capable of that as well. Without the meta.

Imperius, on 18 August 2015 - 06:55 PM, said:

Duh I said this on page one and three I think before the patch was even out. It still does average team score. Let me break it down.

If my two friends and I are Tier one the game will give us something like this for teams.
Team one Us
Tier 1
Tier 1
Tier 1
Tier 5
Tier 5
Tier 5
Tier 4
Tier 4
Tier 4
Tier 3
Tier 3
Tier 3
The other team will be
Tier 3
Tier 3
Tier 3
Tier 3
Tier 3
Tier 3
Tier 3
Tier 3
Tier 3
Tier 3
Tier 3
Tier 3
Which unless we really carry hard and bring our meta mechs chances are out Tier 4 and 5's will wipe out in typical NASCAR deathball fashion leaving us out numbered, unless we can kill enough of the enemy before the number tips in their favor.


Let me ask you this who would you rather have on your team as the last man standing. A LRM boat or a direct fire? Your answer the one that you know is right is why you should never have an LRM boat. Don't confuse having LRM's with Boating them.

The non boat obviously. That being said I've run stalkers in the past that are practically all LRM with a couple lasers for back up, and I never felt like I was screwing the team over. That being said if you're going to take LRM's and nothing else? Then yeah that's just a bad build.

[AJAZX]

so any discussion about tiers is moot, since nobody knows what theirs is.

[bad arcade kitty]

AJAZX, on 18 August 2015 - 07:12 PM, said:

so any discussion about tiers is moot, since nobody knows what theirs is.

everypony assumes they are tier 1 or (modest ones) 2

[Imperius]

bad arcade kitty, on 18 August 2015 - 06:55 PM, said:

while damage accumulates easily you cannot say that it's useless or that they are limited to kill light mechs only just because the damage is spread

for instance my last game (pre-patch, bog conquest), my streakcrow killed a griffin who tried to brawl me, then i went on a highground and shooting through the leaves heavily damaged a mad dog in a group of his friends, he didnt' get where i was and hid behind a rock, i boomzoomed and finished him, jumped to the lily pond and fought solo an enforcer, a ferret and a dire wolf, both meds fled heavily damaged and when i switched to the dire my engine blew up from overheat all those 3 were later finished by my team; i did slightly less than 1000 damage and i think was pretty useful for my team... who lost regardless; it was a good game but by no means a some special case... spread damage work when you spread a mad quantity of it

Dude, people do win the lottery, but the million times you see these damage spreading pilots, only one time out of those million are they truly useful.

[AJAZX]

and now with the new scoring system, I have no idea if it's good, bad or mediocre. most likely the latter, i'm sure, but I do not know how to evaluate it, yet.

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

How did a discussion about a patch devolve into a "LRMs suck ... no you do" thread?

@Imperious ... why do you assume that your opponent's group (12x3) is any different from yours (3x1, 3x2, 3x4, 3x5)? Will there be an imbalance occasionally? Sure. Is it always trying to screw you? No, not always.

And this is why LRMs suck ...

Spoiler

- When you're in the back launching missiles, your armor is not sharing damage with rest of your team.
- When you're relying on locks, you're not able to quickly shift from one target to another.
- Unless you're in line-of-sight, you're not necessarily targeting the most dangerous threat.
- Many hard counters ... ECM, Hard Cover, Min/Max Range.
- Even when you are on the line with other 'mechs, by the time you get a lock and your missiles reach the target, if your teammates can aim and shoot direct fire weapons well, your target is already dead or running back for cover.
- You cannot focus a specific component and disarm, disable, or kill efficiently.

If you're going to run a LRM-dependent assault, please, do us all a favor and min-max the crap out of it. Bring the biggest launchers that will fit, bring all the ammo. Equip an XL250 engine (you don't need speed ... you're going to be in the back anyway). Don't bother with more than 2-3 points of armor on any one component ... use that tonnage for more ammo! (You're going to be using your front line team mates to soak damage anyway.)

[Aidan]

Alexander,

Unfortunately, the Overwolf overlay does not work in MWO running under Windows 10. Overwolf is currenty working on a patch.

Regards,

Aidan

[Imperius]

Kageru Ikazuchi, on 18 August 2015 - 07:30 PM, said:

How did a discussion about a patch devolve into a "LRMs suck ... no you do" thread?

@Imperious ... why do you assume that your opponent's group (12x3) is any different from yours (3x1, 3x2, 3x4, 3x5)? Will there be an imbalance occasionally? Sure. Is it always trying to screw you? No, not always.

And this is why LRMs suck ...

Spoiler

- When you're in the back launching missiles, your armor is not sharing damage with rest of your team.
- When you're relying on locks, you're not able to quickly shift from one target to another.
- Unless you're in line-of-sight, you're not necessarily targeting the most dangerous threat.
- Many hard counters ... ECM, Hard Cover, Min/Max Range.
- Even when you are on the line with other 'mechs, by the time you get a lock and your missiles reach the target, if your teammates can aim and shoot direct fire weapons well, your target is already dead or running back for cover.
- You cannot focus a specific component and disarm, disable, or kill efficiently.

If you're going to run a LRM-dependent assault, please, do us all a favor and min-max the crap out of it. Bring the biggest launchers that will fit, bring all the ammo. Equip an XL250 engine (you don't need speed ... you're going to be in the back anyway). Don't bother with more than 2-3 points of armor on any one component ... use that tonnage for more ammo! (You're going to be using your front line team mates to soak damage anyway.)

This is a game about team numbers and damage. If you don't get how an average team will destroy a "balanced" team of Tier 4's and 5"s because they have a few aces that they refuse to listen to then you really don't understand this game.

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

I do understand.

But the likelihood that you get a team of "aces" and "scrubs" against a team full of "averages" is low, assuming that there are multiple groups of "aces" in the queue. It's more likely that you have groups of "aces" and "averages" against other groups of "aces" and "averages".

Will there be imbalances occasionally? Sure, but in my experience, it's not the norm, even when the queue population is smallest.

Edited by Kageru Ikazuchi, 18 August 2015 - 07:47 PM.

[Jman5]

Imperius, on 18 August 2015 - 07:40 PM, said:

This is a game about team numbers and damage. If you don't get how an average team will destroy a "balanced" team of Tier 4's and 5"s because they have a few aces that they refuse to listen to then you really don't understand this game.

Your example is not very good because your scenario is impossible. While it's certainly possible for a tier 1 player to match with a tier 4 or 5 player in the group queue, that can only happen if the group the tier 4/5 player is in averages to tier 3 or higher.

In your specific example let's assume worst case scenario and your tier 1 group is searching along side that 9 man group. The 9 man group averages out to tier 4 meaning you cannot physically match with or against them if you are tier 1. The averaging happens within premade groups it doesn't average separate premades.

Quote

A Tier 1 player will never play against a Tier 4 or Tier 5 player.
New players are automatically seeded into the mid-to-high range of Tier 4.
All current players will be seeded into whichever Skill Tier best aligns with the historical data already present in their account. The historical data pool used for generating your Tier placement goes back until January 2015.

[Tylerchu]

Did the match score also change? I'm seeing lots of +200s match scores.

[Wintersdark]

Tylerchu, on 18 August 2015 - 08:12 PM, said:

Did the match score also change? I'm seeing lots of +200s match scores.

It changed dramatically. I got a ~400 match score in a Shadowcat earlier with <300 damage.

[Imperius]

Jman5, on 18 August 2015 - 08:02 PM, said:

Your example is not very good because your scenario is impossible. While it's certainly possible for a tier 1 player to match with a tier 4 or 5 player in the group queue, that can only happen if the group the tier 4/5 player is in averages to tier 3 or higher.

In your specific example let's assume worst case scenario and your tier 1 group is searching along side that 9 man group. The 9 man group averages out to tier 4 meaning you cannot physically match with or against them if you are tier 1. The averaging happens within premade groups it doesn't average separate premades.

Guess you don't have great reading comprehension but I will break it down for you.

A Tier 1 player will never play against (but can play with) a Tier 4 or Tier 5 player.
New players are automatically seeded into the mid-to-high range of Tier 4. (Hence why I always get trial mechs and bads on my team)
All current players will be seeded into whichever Skill Tier best aligns with the historical data already present in their account. The historical data pool used for generating your Tier placement goes back until January 2015.

So yes my scenario plays out, I often see trial mechs and have to wait long times for matches. Honestly I wish they would just release what Tier we are in already but it is confirmed it balances out by team.

Proof here http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__4627640

Edited by Imperius, 18 August 2015 - 08:54 PM.

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that when they said "A Tier 1 player will never play against a Tier 4 or Tier 5 player" that they meant in the Solo queue ... and I'm going to assume that they also meant that Tier 1 players in the solo queue will not have Tier 4/5 players on their team.

The group queue, however, will continue to be a mixed bag ... a "tetris" puzzle of different size groups with different 'mech loads and skills.

@Imperius ... if you're dropping solo and seeing new players, you may be overestimating your skill level. Regardless, it appears to me that you're jumping to a conclusion that is not necessarily valid.

We probably need a new Command Chair post on the whole thing.