235 replies to this topic

[Kira Onime]

Lugh, on 18 August 2015 - 10:43 AM, said:

I hope they do, and the are properly framing the results. The lower rated pilots may not be credible all the time, but sometimes a fresh set of eyes on something brings new light to old issues.

So you,re telling me "Player skill = player game knowledge".

[Obadiah333]

First time I have bothered to post in a really, really long time. I'll basically be re-iterating what I said last time they wanted to make elo public - don't do it, it will ruin this game.

A lot of people cited WoT as an example of the bad things that can happen to a game with public stats. I'll quote my source from this topic the last time - WoW. Look at what gearcheck did to the que's for dungeons/raids. Was it necessary to have? maybe. was it helpful in making sure people were geared up for the event they wanted to tackle? sure. Did it make the community even more toxic than it was and then exclude a lot of players who were there to have fun/try to get into raids/dungeons? absolutely it did.

Every argument on the forums after public psr: "shut up tier 4 noob. I'm tier 1 and my input is more important than yours."

Every unit trying to recruit in this game: "come join HDEJ (house Davion elitist jerks), tier 1 only may apply." (no offense intended towards Davion, I was just making an example).

Every new player that starts out in tier 5 is going to have a worse time in this game from the get go - from in game chat to voip, they are going to be sh*t on start to finish and leave this game before they even get invested into it. The steam release will be one big come and go. Peeps will disappear like Arizona frost.

Granted, this is only my opinion on what might happen. But I've been playing mmo's and online games since EQ was a thing, and almost without exception, every game that has public ranking in any way, shape or form has resulted in a more toxic environment, exclusion of a large portion of the player base and a loss of retention of new players.

[MechWarrior3671771]

DDO had a similar player stat. They allowed players to decide if they wanted those stats to be public or private with a checkbox. Worked well.

[XxXAbsolutZeroXxX]

Kira_Onime, on 18 August 2015 - 10:49 AM, said:

So you,re telling me "Player skill = player game knowledge".

Skillful players are usually the ones who shoot off both arms of your nova because they can tell from your loadout that all your weapons hardpoints are arm based. They also tend to be the ones who can recognize when an atlas, banshee or battlemaster is moving fast enough to have an XL engine mounted and shoot for the side torso. That's part of what makes them good is knowing what to aim for, and being able to recognize certain strengths and weaknesses just from a single glance at your loadout on the target info gathering screen.

Its bizarre how some of you pretend skill has absolutely nothing to do with game knowledge. From the first few shots someone fires and what components they target, sometimes you can tell whether someone is an expert or not. Sometimes I can tell right away. If you're in a spider 5D and you notice your right arm beginning to take damage, that usually means you're being shot at by a veteran.

Good players are good players for the same reason that rich people are rich. They go that extra mile and make that extra effort. It would be nice if people could give them some credit rather than pretend its a completely random accident or that knowledge and comprehension of game mechanics have nothing to do with it.

Edited by I Zeratul I, 18 August 2015 - 10:58 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

Almond Brown, on 18 August 2015 - 09:48 AM, said:

So elo and W/L. With only W/L being visible... My bad...

So does making SOMEONE feel bad for doing badly give you pleasure? Is that how you derive it, ******** on others whom you see as lesser?

<sigh> indeed.

It's not about making 'me' feel better it's about motivating THEM to do better.

That's what drives me nuts about those neo-Spock liberals trying to avoid 'hurt feelings', where's the motivation to improve if the act of winning is watered down by EVERYONE getting to feel good, EVEN when they did extremely badly?

You played like ****, learn to aim, if you don't like it, too bad, suck it up or move on buttercup.

Maybe it's me, maybe I'm just not as used to losing as some of you people are...

But it's like one of the best coaches I ever had told the team:

"Being proud of being a 'good loser' is like being proud of being a 'good masturbator', it really isn't something you want to be proud of or do in public."

[KraftySOT]

I want public tears.

[Lugh]

Kira_Onime, on 18 August 2015 - 10:49 AM, said:

So you,re telling me "Player skill = player game knowledge".

Noooo, I'm telling you that opinions are more and less valuable depending on context. In the example given JAM RATES, a cross spectrum complaint rate would indicate it is a broad based problem and should likely be fixed.

In the case of Pop Tart mania, the opposite may have been true. Where the lower skilled pilots had more trouble with them than the higher skilled ones. That context allows you to realize that poptarts aren't the problem. The problem is perceptual bias, as the less skilled an individual is, the more likely that individual is to have with more 'advanced' tactics.

Another example is the Dual Gauss K2. Lots of players had trouble beating them back in the day. I did not. I played dragons with arm mounted weapons and counseled using Height to your advantage. Most days it was easy to beat a k2 on a hill.

Who's right? The people that lack to skill to compensate? Or the guy that beats them all day long easily? Which demographic do you pursue to get some quiet? Invariably it's the low skill pool that drives the whining, as the higher skill pilots just learn to adapt.

I STILL haven't adjusted to the Gauss charge mechanic, but even when there wasn't one I preferred UAC5s

[Aresye]

I think the argument against public opt-in/out due to possible elitism on the forums is both correct and incorrect.

On one hand, people cite WoT having issues with a similar system, but on the other hand, this community is quite small, and a lot of (what I assume) Tier 1 players like Heimdelight, Adiuvo, JagerXII, GMan129, etc. have spent lots of their free time and resources (ex: metamechs website, church of skill) to help newer players learn the nature of competitive play in this game.

[bad arcade kitty]

Aresye Kerensky, on 18 August 2015 - 11:01 AM, said:

I think the argument against public opt-in/out due to possible elitism on the forums is both correct and incorrect.

On one hand, people cite WoT having issues with a similar system, but on the other hand, this community is quite small, and a lot of (what I assume) Tier 1 players like Heimdelight, Adiuvo, JagerXII, GMan129, etc. have spent lots of their free time and resources (ex: metamechs website, church of skill) to help newer players learn the nature of competitive play in this game.

now imagine some of those who you listed end in tier 2 and others in tier 1

the cries, the frustration, the envy, the salt which must flow (:

[Dimento Graven]

I Zeratul I, on 18 August 2015 - 09:58 AM, said:

I just want the truth to come out.

...

The truth is, as I recall from PGI/IGP posts on the matter, poptarting was a game mode they really didn't want to support. I believe they quoted examples of other games where that mode was common and the description used was 'miserable gaming experience'.

Whether or not the nay sayers had ANY impact on PGI's decision to change the mechanic or not, we really don't know...

[Dimento Graven]

Fenrisulvyn, on 18 August 2015 - 10:53 AM, said:

DDO had a similar player stat. They allowed players to decide if they wanted those stats to be public or private with a checkbox. Worked well.

EverQuest had the same sort of options as well...

[Kira Onime]

I Zeratul I, on 18 August 2015 - 10:57 AM, said:

Skillful players are usually the ones who shoot off both arms of your nova because they can tell from your loadout that all your weapons hardpoints are arm based. They also tend to be the ones who can recognize when an atlas, banshee or battlemaster is moving fast enough to have an XL engine mounted and shoot for the side torso. That's part of what makes them good is knowing what to aim for, and being able to recognize certain strengths and weaknesses just from a single glance at your loadout on the target info gathering screen.

Its bizarre how some of you pretend skill has absolutely nothing to do with game knowledge. From the first few shots someone fires and what components they target, sometimes you can tell whether someone is an expert or not. Sometimes I can tell right away. If you're in a spider 5D and you notice your right arm beginning to take damage, that usually means you're being shot at by a veteran.

Good players are good players for the same reason that rich people are rich. They go that extra mile and make that extra effort. It would be nice if people could give them some credit rather than pretend its a completely random accident or that knowledge and comprehension of game mechanics have nothing to do with it.

Let me present to you little Billy.

Little billy here has been playing since closed beta. He knows the mechs in and out. Strengths, weaknesses, he knows them. Map specific strategies? Also knows them.
Billy sadly is not one known for having good aim. One would describe his in-game skill has "sub-average" at best.

Billy would love to share his knowledge of mechs but sadly he keeps on being shot down by people using his poor in-game skill as an argument to invalidate his claims.




I'm not saying good players don't know anything about the game, they obviously do. What I'm saying is that you can't label lower tier players with ignorance on game knowledge because of their placement.
Using one's in-game performances in such as way is honestly just an ignorant elitist attitude and reduces ones credibility in a discussion.
"I'm better than you" is not an argument on it's own.

[Void Angel]

Nah, man - screw that. There's already waaay too much uberitis around here as it is - I can imagine all too well what would happen if sufferers of that illness had tangible evidence to wave around. A lot of them would get shut up; but the ones whose ratings match their egos would be insufferable - waving around their tier ranking every time someone challenged their asinine opinions on the forums. Being a high-ranked player doesn't make you a very smart person by default. It may simply mean you have great fine motor control, hand-eye coordination, and reflexes - along with all the nuanced intellect of a thrown brick. I've seen a lot of posters who fit the latter definition, and I just don't need the hassle.

[Dimento Graven]

bad arcade kitty, on 18 August 2015 - 11:03 AM, said:

now imagine some of those who you listed end in tier 2 and others in tier 1

the cries, the frustration, the envy, the salt which must flow (:

Or, god forbid, a motivation to do better?

[Lugh]

Dimento Graven, on 18 August 2015 - 11:07 AM, said:

EverQuest had the same sort of options as well...

Everquest by and large was a horrible PvP system.

(This from a Ranger that rarely lost in any of the tournaments they (server people)ran).

[Dimento Graven]

Lugh, on 18 August 2015 - 11:10 AM, said:

Everquest by and large was a horrible PvP system.

(This from a Ranger that rarely lost in any of the tournaments they (server people)ran).

Absolutely, I played on Rallos 'Gankos' Zek all the way into one of the server merges, and then migrated off with the rest of my guild some time later.

I totally agree that PvP in EQ left a LOT to be desired.

[Kira Onime]

Lugh, on 18 August 2015 - 11:01 AM, said:

Who's right? The people that lack to skill to compensate? Or the guy that beats them all day long easily? Which demographic do you pursue to get some quiet? Invariably it's the low skill pool that drives the whining, as the higher skill pilots just learn to adapt.

Both can be right depending on the context. I wasn't around during that time of the game so I'm really not in the best position to comment on it.

[XxXAbsolutZeroXxX]

Obadiah333, on 18 August 2015 - 10:53 AM, said:

First time I have bothered to post in a really, really long time. I'll basically be re-iterating what I said last time they wanted to make elo public - don't do it, it will ruin this game.

A lot of people cited WoT as an example of the bad things that can happen to a game with public stats. I'll quote my source from this topic the last time - WoW. Look at what gearcheck did to the que's for dungeons/raids. Was it necessary to have? maybe. was it helpful in making sure people were geared up for the event they wanted to tackle? sure. Did it make the community even more toxic than it was and then exclude a lot of players who were there to have fun/try to get into raids/dungeons? absolutely it did.

Every argument on the forums after public psr: "shut up tier 4 noob. I'm tier 1 and my input is more important than yours."

Every unit trying to recruit in this game: "come join HDEJ (house Davion elitist jerks), tier 1 only may apply." (no offense intended towards Davion, I was just making an example).

Every new player that starts out in tier 5 is going to have a worse time in this game from the get go - from in game chat to voip, they are going to be sh*t on start to finish and leave this game before they even get invested into it. The steam release will be one big come and go. Peeps will disappear like Arizona frost.

Granted, this is only my opinion on what might happen. But I've been playing mmo's and online games since EQ was a thing, and almost without exception, every game that has public ranking in any way, shape or form has resulted in a more toxic environment, exclusion of a large portion of the player base and a loss of retention of new players.

What if people who did well in tournaments made fun of those who did poorly? What if those who scored high in tournaments used their ranking to look down on others and pretend that other peoples opinions were invalid? Based on these concerns -- we should never have tournaments or weekend events ever.

Based on what you said, we should never have weekend tournaments, events or e-sports in this game. Because those who did well could use their ranking to look down on others. Those in clans like SJR could use their status as a means to try and make everyone else's opinion seem invalid. Well, if you look at this forum I doubt anyone from SJR even bothers posting here because there's so much misinformation and nonsense spammed here on a regular basis that most people couldn't even stomach reading these forums.

And from this stream of nonsense and misinformation that many people couldn't stomach reading is where PGI collects most of the feedback it uses to develop this game and make key balance decisions. Maybe I'm getting ahead of myself here, but maybe its not so difficult to see where things are going wrong here? And maybe its not difficult to see that this place might benefit from some metrics being put in place to help people determine which posts are credible and which are not?

I get the feeling what you're saying is some offshoot of political correctness I don't agree with. I don't agree with the idea that anything and everything in life should be censored. If weekend tournaments have the potential to hurt peoples feeling I don't agree that they should be censored. If in game rankings have the potential to hurt peoples feelings I don't agree with censorship of stats for identical reasons.

Edited by I Zeratul I, 18 August 2015 - 11:31 AM.

[Sir Wulfrick]

The problem with making the tiers public is that nobody is going to listen to any suggestions made by <T2 players, no matter how well thought out and relevant their suggestions might be.

To use a real life analogy, when it comes to military tactics I don't think that anyone would argue that Ike, Monty, Patton or Zukhov weren't superb military strategists. There is however no record of any of them actually being skilled tank commanders, gunners or infantrymen in their own rights.

My fear is that reasonable, well thought out suggestions and analysis will be drowned out by endless floods of criticism due to the proposer being a low-tier player. I can see a certain value in making tiers public but I think the potential disadvantages for the progress and future of the game outweigh the potential benefits.

[XxXAbsolutZeroXxX]

Sir Wulfrick, on 18 August 2015 - 11:19 AM, said:

The problem with making the tiers public is that nobody is going to listen to any suggestions made by <T2 players, no matter how well thought out and relevant their suggestions might be.

Everytime a new player posts and says: "Hey, I just started playing this game 2 weeks ago, here are my impressions and things that might be improved," those people usually are taken seriously. The idea people have where they think this would change overnight just because new players would have a tier 4 ranking doesn't make much sense.

There are a lot of players in this game who do well in tournaments and have high KDR/WL stats who could flaunt it and pretend everyone peoples opinions are irrelevent. I think most of those people have already departed the forums with PGI's announcement that they no longer pay attention to what happens here.

But yeah there are plenty of new players who post in this section regularly who aren't discriminated against because they're new or don't know the game well. Why would any of that change?