90 replies to this topic

[Pht]

fil5000, on 06 July 2012 - 02:23 PM, said:

Dude, that's 750 words of your opinions about space robots. If you don't think that's "long" then I don't know what to tell you.

750 words is now "too long" to read?

... but hey, I guess that's just your opinion, right?

[fil5000]

Pht, on 06 July 2012 - 02:29 PM, said:

750 words is now "too long" to read?

... but hey, I guess that's just your opinion, right?

Well, it's 750 words that can mostly be boiled down to "I like Battletech and I like the Mechwarrior games, but you can't just translate the rules of the former directly into the latter without changing them", but you've gone for something wordier and packaged it up as a mission statement for your "foundation". I can completely understand why someone would look at it and go "Yeah, no, not reading that."

[Quincy80]

Sorry to break this to you Fire for Effect, but they have already changed your precious core mechanics.

http://mwomercs.com/...or-double-ammo/

Hmmm, what do you know, they might just need to buff ammo using weapons anyway.

[Terminal Blue]

Pht, on 06 July 2012 - 02:29 PM, said:

750 words is now "too long" to read?

... but hey, I guess that's just your opinion, right?

Not saying just to be a dick or anything but yeah, you seem to use alot of words to say something pretty simple there. For what it's worth I even agree with the sentiment but damn that's some text you've got right there.

[Fire for Effect]

fil5000, on 06 July 2012 - 02:21 PM, said:

Why are laser mechanics fair game but not armour? If you're changing a weapon, you're changing the effect it has on armour, so you're already changing the armour mechanic by proxy. Giving a weapon two values, one for armour damage and one for internal damage is not a massive change to what is already there.

it is very well a massive change since you have no idea what else you might change by that and I change not the mechanics but for example the time that is needed to do the stated damage. the laser is still doing 5 pts of damage in 10 seconds and producing 3 heat. A DOT has to be kept on the mech which lowers the bust damage capabilities of pulse laser that were pretty devestating in the previous mech warrior games.

Doubling armor is already quite a heavy change but is essentially only a procrastination of a fight negative for ammo using loadouts since you need more ammo but the effect we need to see maybe we get more missiles for a ton...
They have given laser a dot capability you have to keep the laser the whole time on the enemy to make the stated damage takes skill and spreads damage over several locations, plus side no devestating burst damage to a single location. pulse laser we have to see. they already are on this route of changing laser.
If something is wrong (like burst of 4 pulse laser to one location) change what is wrong and not something else. I think it is best to see if we have an issue with laser this time (hope not) or if we are just discussing about the nature of an ant hill in the middle of the desert. (meaning no ant hill in view.)

[Fire for Effect]

Quincy80, on 06 July 2012 - 02:34 PM, said:

Sorry to break this to you Fire for Effect, but they have already changed your precious core mechanics.

http://mwomercs.com/...or-double-ammo/

Hmmm, what do you know, they might just need to buff ammo using weapons anyway.

aaahhhhh *heart attack*
already knew that have also written it in the last reply, I had hoped for more evil grin from you

Terminal Blue, on 06 July 2012 - 02:39 PM, said:

Not saying just to be a dick or anything but yeah, you seem to use alot of words to say something pretty simple there. For what it's worth I even agree with the sentiment but damn that's some text you've got right there.

well he is an able and fast writer 750 words or maybe he has just pasted it

[Terminal Blue]

The lasers I saw in the videos didn't fire for anything like 10 seconds.

[Pht]

fil5000, on 06 July 2012 - 02:33 PM, said:

Well, it's 750 words that can mostly be boiled down to "I like Battletech and I like the Mechwarrior games, but you can't just translate the rules of the former directly into the latter without changing them",

Um, no. It can't be boiled down to that. Context, it kind of helps to determine meaning.

Terminal Blue, on 06 July 2012 - 02:39 PM, said:

Not saying just to be a dick or anything but yeah, you seem to use alot of words to say something pretty simple there.

Use few words, people complain that you're not clear

... use enough words, people whine that it's [whiney voice]toohaaarrrd[/whiney voice] ... Some things can't be put into a comic book format and still be meaningful... now if only we could convince society of the truth of this... spend years getting beat up training for the UFC? Sure.

Read something hard? ... Heck no.

Quote

For what it's worth I even agree with the sentiment but damn that's some text you've got right there.

... and it's *clear* and detailed. Which is exactly what I was going for.

[Fire for Effect]

Terminal Blue, on 06 July 2012 - 02:48 PM, said:

The lasers I saw in the videos didn't fire for anything like 10 seconds.

they do not need to do so to keep the numbers, if you fire for less time less damage is done... but if the numbers are juggled right that could indeed eliminate the *fire and forget your limb* problem that has crippeled the other mech warrior games a bit.

[Pht]

Fire for Effect, on 06 July 2012 - 02:46 PM, said:

Well he is an able and fast writer 750 words or maybe he has just pasted it

It's from my last sig link, the one on the far right.

It's meant to be a detailed magnum opus on the topic, for which I will not apologize.

[Pht]

Terminal Blue, on 06 July 2012 - 02:48 PM, said:

The lasers I saw in the videos didn't fire for anything like 10 seconds.

Actually, we don't know how long the on time is for the lasers; because the solaris box set rules pushed the turn time down to 2.5 seconds and you could still fire all of your weapons; so we really don't know the recycle time of the weapons... which does not mean that we can't still have the balance from the parent system. Heat determines recycle times in the parent system; you want a fast recycle under ten seconds? Make it that much hotter... vise-versa for slower firing weapons. Balance preserved.

[Terminal Blue]

I don't think discussing the Solaris dueling rules is much help here considering they don't seem to have been used at all regarding MWO.

Well, probably not at least. They're pretty obscure to people who aren't huge Battletech junkies. I just tire of the endless back and forth with 'Well X had Y, so MWO should probably have Y.' followed by 'Yes, but X Extended had Y+ so Y in MWO should work like X Extended' rigamarole.

Edited by Terminal Blue, 06 July 2012 - 03:08 PM.

[Fire for Effect]

a well the solaris box seldom someone was to be found to actually use the rules I have not the numbers for a solaris round at hand to be honest.
But that one is easier to find than the damn 3039 TRO.

Exactly that is what is mean you have to keep the relative numbers. If you do an instant damage and 10 second recycle or withhin 10 seconds thumbs down continuess autofire with the same weapon is for the balance from the TT perspective utterly unimportant. stay compatible. These are you fiddling ***** and dials here you can optimize to your hearts content you do not change the basics it will still remain comparable. is the laser doing to much burst damage simply increase the time you need to keep the laser on the enemy since both machines are most of the time moving you will spread maybe even miss abit. problem solved without inventing somethign new you have repaired the door without welding it shut and breaking a new hole into the wall.

in science there is a principle KISS that also fits here new armor or a new damage ratio for internals or different damage types for different weapons is very difficult to balance. it is not of much use to risk opening a new hole if you wish to close another.

Terminal Blue, on 06 July 2012 - 03:06 PM, said:

They're pretty obscure to people who aren't huge Battletech junkies.

these are also obscure for most BT junkies

[Pht]

Terminal Blue, on 06 July 2012 - 03:06 PM, said:

I don't think discussing the Solaris dueling rules is much help here considering they don't seem to have been used at all regarding MWO.

Actually, I was specifically ponting it out for the guys that are into that stuff. We simply don't know the recycle times... It's not ten seconds, as everyone thinks... and I am speaking of the BTUniverse, not the gaming system recycle times.

Quote

Well, probably not at least. They're pretty obscure to people who aren't huge Battletech junkies. I just tire of the endless back and forth with 'Well X had Y, so MWO should probably have Y.' followed by 'Yes, but X Extended had Y+ so Y in MWO should work like X Extended' rigamarole.

That's the inherent nature of the beast, even for the developers. Heck, that's why I went to the trouble of making that manifesto post... so I could quit having to re-type my arguments. spoiler tags+ copy/paste for the win

[Fire for Effect]

Pht, on 06 July 2012 - 03:14 PM, said:

Actually, I was specifically ponting it out for the guys that are into that stuff. We simply don't know the recycle times... It's not ten seconds, as everyone thinks... and I am speaking of the BTUniverse, not the gaming system recycle times.

no we only know it is that much damage and heat in that time.

Pht, on 06 July 2012 - 03:14 PM, said:

That's the inherent nature of the beast, even for the developers. Heck, that's why I went to the trouble of making that manifesto post... so I could quit having to re-type my arguments. spoiler tags+ copy/paste for the win

quite nicely done good idea by the way...

Terminal Blue, on 06 July 2012 - 03:06 PM, said:

rigamarole.

*shyly asks*
uhm what is a rigamarole?

[Ultima Dragoon]

Rigmarole is something that is long and complicated for the sake of being long and complicated.

[Fire for Effect]

Ultima Dragoon, on 06 July 2012 - 03:21 PM, said:

Rigmarole is something that is long and complicated for the sake of being long and complicated.

thx did not know that. and KISS is always right (i forgot to translate it no idea if it is used in englishspeaking countries too)
"Keep It Simple Stupid"

no offense ment that is actually the translation of the acronym works like a charm most of the times

[Pht]

2 : a complex and sometimes ritualistic procedure

http://www.merriam-w...onary/rigmarole

By the way, google translate seems to be better than babelfish these days.

[Terminal Blue]

Hah. Rigmarole indeed.

[Reoh]

Bluey, on 06 July 2012 - 10:00 AM, said:

Why everyone is thinking like an atlas gonna carry an A/C 5 and duke it out with a stalker
I'd like to see you fitting an A/C 20 on a 35 ton mech <.< There are other mech classes that cannot make use of heavy weapons.
Balancing can be made between similar items.You cannot balance a light category boxer with iron filled boxing gloves against a heavy boxer
but you know what they say all is fair in love and hand to hand combat so a smaller nimble unit can take down much larger opponent with never ending haress which is clearly shows game is already balanced cause light mechs and their lighter weapons always have speed advantage compared to bigger weapons and the mech that carried them.

Challenge Accepted!

That was too easy, so I slipped it into a 30ton Urbanmech.