63 replies to this topic

[Fire for Effect]

Comguard, on 06 July 2012 - 10:37 AM, said:

What did you expect? A complex situation with 300page manual and a 200€ controller? Where is the point in developing this, who is the audience?

the audience would be for example me.... (if anyone remembers spectrum holobyte )

[CaveMan]

Cmdr Rad, on 06 July 2012 - 11:21 AM, said:

A silver lining to the hardware argument though is: Mech games are making a comeback. We have this and we have Hawken. They both encourage people to use joystick + additional hardware. If you want to make a difference Jade, go buy a new joystick. Encourage all other players to buy a new joystick. You need to become a lobbyist for joysticks. Once enough people have bought joysticks, there will be a large enough market demographic that game designers can approach their investors and say "HEY, THESE PEOPLE OWN A JOYSTICK, LETS SUPPORT/CENTER OUR GAME AROUND IT".

I dont think Hawken is gonna do much to help the cause. From what I've seen, it looks like CoD in mech skins. Made for mouse and not joystick.

If anything, should it succeed, it'll just convince publishers that casual mech games are good enough and complex ones don't need to go forward.

Edited by CaveMan, 06 July 2012 - 11:32 AM.

[Vasces Diablo]

Thalas, on 06 July 2012 - 11:25 AM, said:

Pretty sure this will be an "awesome complex game".

The community warfare, role warfare, and faction perks do suggest this to be the case.

[Project_Mercy]

CaveMan, on 06 July 2012 - 11:31 AM, said:

I dont think Hawken is gonna do much to help the cause. From what I've seen, it looks like CoD in mech skins. Made for mouse and not joystick.

If anything, should it succeed, it'll just convince publishers that casual mech games are good enough and complex ones don't need to go forward.

This. Hawken is actually a step back instead of forward.

I would rather play Firefall, where the style fits in and there's more reason to it; than Hawken, which is just deathmatches with mech-shaped people.

[Fire for Effect]

Steadfast, on 06 July 2012 - 11:14 AM, said:

For complex games - try boardgames.

you can also try some Pc titles:

megamek (to stay a bit in the BT realm)
Europa Universalis III
Hearts of Iron 3
Victoria 2

...

the tendency of publishers to set the games to primitive has set many designers on angry; kickstarter is a good example that there is an audiance that abores primitive games Wasteland 2 a "classic" RPG has collected a few million dollars for development. the next iteration of Monkey island has collected also a few millions and so on... people do not want to be bored... its the same with movies most are so boring stupid it hurts new ideas are seldom tried...

[Zynk]

Jade Kitsune, on 06 July 2012 - 10:23 AM, said:

I've noticed in the past 10+ years, that company's have taken to catering to casual gamers to garner better profits, and from a business standpoint, this makes sense, however I can't help but feel that the business is begining to stagnate due to this idea.

Don't get me wrong, casual's need games too. And don't think this is a console vs pc gaming debate either, as I grew up on the NES, and still to this day play X-box 360. However I can't help but feel that the idea of targeting casual gamers is what's causing the stagnation of gaming as a whole. There's no new ideas, no new imput devices.

When the last EPIC controller was Steel Battalion, you know there's a problem.

Now I can understand company's not wanting to take a risk on a product, but the problem stems in that at this point, they're rarely ever willing to take risks, what happened to the days of 'Make a game, see if it works?" now it's all about "Make CoD 50000000! Everyone buys COD!"

Let's let causal's have their games, but let's not forget the hardcore crowd guys, we're the crowd that's going to pay for that expensive controller packed with your game.

Will this CONTROLLER do?

[IronGoat]

Fire for Effect, on 06 July 2012 - 11:35 AM, said:

you can also try some Pc titles:

megamek (to stay a bit in the BT realm)
Europa Universalis III
Hearts of Iron 3
Victoria 2

...

the tendency of publishers to set the games to primitive has set many designers on angry; kickstarter is a good example that there is an audiance that abores primitive games Wasteland 2 a "classic" RPG has collected a few million dollars for development. the next iteration of Monkey island has collected also a few millions and so on... people do not want to be bored... its the same with movies most are so boring stupid it hurts new ideas are seldom tried...

agreed
any movie (or game) that requires even a modicum of thought to follow the plot line is immediatly labled "stupid" by general audiences
"suckerpunch" case in point. so many people watched it for "cute girls in anime action" and then found out there was a a plotline one had to follow to make it all make sense. and in the end the "cute" girl dies anyway, hence "stupid movie" by so many of its viewers

BTW im sure many of you liked and enjoyed the movie im just saying most of the people I know and met that watched it said it was stupid and after only a moment or two of explination this was my conclusion.

i used to have a t shirt that summed it all up for me "so hard to soar like an eagle in a flock of turkeys"

[TyrialRetribution]

CaveMan, on 06 July 2012 - 10:47 AM, said:

$$$, $$$, $$$. There's your answer, OP. Games cost a fortune to make these days. If you want your game made, you have to convince investors to support it. Hardcore projects that appeal to a narrow audience don't inspire investor confidence. It's the same reason why we don't have big-budget art films.

I feel your pain, though. I too miss the days when you could find mass-market games that had manuals hundreds of pages long and used every key on the keyboard 2 or 3 times.

the problem lies in the fact that the "narrow market" you refer to 10 years ago was the market. now so many more people play games, an investor has a choice. i can invest in a product that will hit 90% of the market and make $100 million, or i can invest in a product for 10% of the market and make $10 million. 10 years ago everyone was in that second budget category, but now that the markets grown no one is willing to invest in those same products. its not that they have a chance of failure just that their less successful. this unfortunately has led to a mas market shift to only making mostly rpg's and fps' as those have always been top sellers. i believe though that what we will see over the next 10 years is a slow shift back to the style of games from before as all the "new" gamers start to grow in their game play interests, paralleling the growth we as the older game community already went through.

* cross fingers*

on another note, i cried at the death of joysticks in games and cant wait for them to make a comeback, which hopefully games like this will help.

i have a http://www.newegg.co...N82E16826102507

Edited by TyrialRetribution, 06 July 2012 - 11:49 AM.

[Project_Mercy]

Fire for Effect, on 06 July 2012 - 11:35 AM, said:

you can also try some Pc titles:

megamek (to stay a bit in the BT realm)
Europa Universalis III
Hearts of Iron 3
Victoria 2

I also suggest anyone that likes complex sci-fi sims try out X3:Terran Conflict (or X3:Albion Prelude if you want a slightly odder version of it). The interface is a bit overly complex (the next version of the game is supposed to make it a bit more accessible), but if you can get past the wall-shaped learning curve, it's crazy awesome. It can be had off Steam regularly for almost nothing. It's easily a good 500-1000 hours if you want to do everything, and the modding community for that game is huge.

Edited by Wraeththix Constantine, 06 July 2012 - 11:49 AM.

[Yankee77]

The complex games ARE out there... but as has been said they are niche now.

As has also been said, that's because it used to be that the "niche" WAS the gaming market. Now gaming is mainstream, so they have to cater to more than our own interest in complex, immersive gameplay.

Coupled with the greatly increased cost of production (because now that computers are much more powerful, it takes a lot more work to make something that uses all that power), and the fact is that AAA titles just don't meet our needs.

But there ARE deep immersive games out there. Simulators like A-10C, Steel Beasts Pro PE (google it, that's armoured warfare for you), Cliffs of Dover, Rise of Flight, and so on. They're just much more rare and don't get enough publicity.

The gaming media is partly to blame of course: I've seen reviews of complex simulations that actually PENALIZE the sim because the learning curve is steep. As if they're expecting sims to be pick-up-and-play (I wonder why pilots require years of training, in that case).

As for the hardware, I strongly suggest you check out the HOTAS Warthog. That's hardcore for you. There is a market for epic controllers, and people who go around making their own custom 'pits.

Just my two cents.

Itkovian

[Popgun]

What happened? The market expanded. They don't sell as well to the broader market.

[Refizul]

Hardcore games are niche market. There are more than enough of them, but you won't find them published/produced by EA or Activision. There is always a market for niche games, but you can't expect them to sell like COD. The big question is how gaming develops in the future. If you can make 10 times more money by selling games on phones/tablets than that's where the big players will move to.
And I can already hear the mainstream gaming journalists calling COD *** to complicated because it's not as easy to learn as Angry Bird 5000.

[Inmora]

I still say SWG was the best MMO to ever come out, yea it had a learning curve but once you learned it, the game rocked. Ever since WOW came out, every MMO now is like that.

The games now coming out are the biggest gripe I have heard past couple years cause they are so easy and people max level in a few weeks.

[Demoned]

well i look at it this way you want a simple game play solo and just have fun blowing stuff up.
you want to play more challenging join a clan or make a platoon get onto TS
and coordinate your attacks for maximum ownage

but i can see MWO been a easy game to play but a hard one to master

[BigJim]

Howsabout Lemmings? Complex as you like, but at the same time the epitome of "casual" games.

/they don't make 'em like that any more

Edited by BigJim, 06 July 2012 - 12:04 PM.

[nycthromar]

svtman, on 06 July 2012 - 10:43 AM, said:

Casual Gamer INC:

I am a casual gamer due to being married, having a new born, running my own business, exercise and everything else that comes with keeping a family happy and together. I won't have much time to grind or farm XP and C-Bills so the Legendary Pack is perfect for me due to time constraints.

I'm sure why you are talking about controllers when that isn't what Piranha is responsible for. Piranha can only put out a great game, but it's up to Logitech and others to make the controllers.

You want expensive? Here you go http://www.thrustmas...hotas-warthog-0

I want that joy stick! :-)

[Vasces Diablo]

Inmora, on 06 July 2012 - 11:56 AM, said:

I still say SWG was the best MMO to ever come out, yea it had a learning curve but once you learned it, the game rocked. Ever since WOW came out, every MMO now is like that.

The games now coming out are the biggest gripe I have heard past couple years cause they are so easy and people max level in a few weeks.

You hear from a vocal minority that max level in a couple weeks. The largest population in a game most likly progresses at a much slower pace.

[Erwiin]

Try EVE Online - it's as casual or complex as you want it to be.

[Darq]

Jade Kitsune, on 06 July 2012 - 10:23 AM, said:

When the last EPIC controller was Steel Battalion, you know there's a problem.

That would be because not enough sold, if it was financially advantageous to target Hard Corp gamers, they would.

Jade Kitsune, on 06 July 2012 - 10:23 AM, said:

we're the crowd that's going to pay for that expensive controller packed with your game.

Again they didn't. They are piled in a warhouse someplace gathering dust.

[Vasces Diablo]

Darq, on 06 July 2012 - 12:36 PM, said:

Again they didn't. They are piled in a warhouse someplace gathering dust.

or right next to all the E.T. game cartridges underground out in the desert....

...how's that for showing my gamer age?