72 replies to this topic

[Kiiyor]

Soultraxx, on 26 August 2015 - 11:40 PM, said:

1) hack meta leet tryhard
2) cheese build

Ive seen these two phrases being thrown around today in a derogitory fashion.


Now Im quite sure it is referring to

1) a player type and build
2) a build type

If I understand them correctly, they represent what is considered the current way to play/ build a mech that will produce a win ?

When these phrases are used it is almost always with anger or frustration - why is this, if this is the way to win?

Many thanks

They are derogatory phrases used to describe someone who plays with the most efficient builds or strategies.

Usually, the term is handed out by particularly vocal 'scrubs' - those valiant warriors destined to play sub-optimal builds and still demand they be considered effective.

I drive Awesomes. I, am a scrub - though I accept and embrace this, and judge not my fellow players for their method of playing.

Here, some light reading:

http://www.sirlin.ne...ducingthe-scrub
http://www.sirlin.ne.../playing-to-win

Both are great articles.

Edited by Kiiyor, 27 August 2015 - 03:00 AM.

[bad arcade kitty]

that's a rather questionable definition of scrub imo

scrub it's a bad player who doesn't try to get better but unlike a casual is also bighead and/or, ugh, too self-opinionated; not a player who plays less viable mechs/builds

[MechWarrior3671771]

Yah, its a bit much to call casual players scrubs.

I remember powergaming Starfire back in college. My apartment walls were covered in star maps and ship designs. Place looked (and smelled) like the messy home of a mad scientist writing equations all over the walls.

Meanwhile, my opponents were showing up to game with Fleet Orders written on the backs of napkins from their lunch break...

Both approaches were fun, but mine ended the fun early because I wanted to WIN! WIN! WIN! at any cost, even if it meant breaking the game.

That's why the powergamers, meta etc get a bad rep.

[Yellonet]

Soultraxx, on 26 August 2015 - 11:40 PM, said:

1) hack meta leet tryhard
2) cheese build

Ive seen these two phrases being thrown around today in a derogitory fashion.


Now Im quite sure it is referring to

1) a player type and build
2) a build type

If I understand them correctly, they represent what is considered the current way to play/ build a mech that will produce a win ?

When these phrases are used it is almost always with anger or frustration - why is this, if this is the way to win?

Many thanks

Well that's just the thing... we have modular mechs that we can build with different equipment and weapons - but what's the point if there are certain specific builds that are much better than others? If that's intended the whole deal with being able to build "your" mech can be scrapped, because why bother if you're only going to be less competitive unless you go with the cheese build?

IMO, this imbalance is not intended, and as such, people only going with meta/cheese builds are taking advantage of a fault with the game. That doesn't feel right to me.

[STEF_]

Paigan, on 26 August 2015 - 11:51 PM, said:

bla bla bla

Do you really have to post this your own opinion every time the word meta is used here?

Words can change meaning in different places, with different persons, different time.
So, it is not you or a diccionary that decide how a word must be used in a community. So, HERE, the word meta has its own freaking meaning regardless your any freaking diccionary.
Period.

If you are smart enough, as it seems for insisting to write down in the forum "how words must be used", then you should be smart enough to read Wittgenstein and some language's relativity assay.


You are welcome.

(I'm sure you'll pardon me for my poor english....)

Edited by Stefka Kerensky, 27 August 2015 - 03:12 AM.

[Kiiyor]

bad arcade kitty, on 27 August 2015 - 02:53 AM, said:

that's a rather questionable definition of scrub imo

scrub it's a bad player who doesn't try to get better but unlike a casual is also bighead and/or, ugh, too self-opinionated; not a player who plays less viable mechs/builds

I'm painting it with a broad brush.

I think of scrubs in terms of those speaking against the most powerful and effective tactics/builds/whatever - and degrading those that do use them. They don't have to be bad players. They're just the players that create their own arbitrary 'fair' rules, who complain about things as being cheap when they don't agree with their use.

"Laser vomit is cheap! Mixed loadouts are the true way to play"

[MechWarrior3671771]

"those speaking against the most powerful and effective tactics/builds/whatever - and degrading those that do use them."

I think you misunderstand - they aren't degrading you because you use the most effective tactics/builds.

[Lily from animove]

Paigan, on 27 August 2015 - 01:03 AM, said:

You obviously have problems understanding the concept of abstractness.
Very good (or "overpowered") builds INSIDE the game and its rules are NOT abstract from or beyond the game in any way.

Not matter how often you write "no, it's accurate" (without justification, I might add).

As I said: intellectual defect.

I guess you were not even able to read the link correctly you gave. because the examples there are very much accurately describing how we "meta" in MWO. trying to show intellect and failing at it, looks quite bad, Sry dude you just failed at your own attemp.

Edited by Lily from animove, 27 August 2015 - 03:50 AM.

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

Fenrisulvyn, on 27 August 2015 - 03:33 AM, said:

"those speaking against the most powerful and effective tactics/builds/whatever - and degrading those that do use them."

I think you misunderstand - they aren't degrading you because you use the most effective tactics/builds.

I dunno man... It was pretty bad, I didn't play peeps and gauss that much, but whenever I did there was always someone on the team who completely shat on you for using it. I mean CoC breaking full spite putting you down just because you used a certain build. It's not that bad these days, but it certainly left a really bad taste towards these Knights of the Noble Way.

[CDLord HHGD]

Paigan, on 26 August 2015 - 11:51 PM, said:

For the rest of the world, meta means something completely different than it does for the MWO community.

It means "after" / "beyond" / "above" in an ABSTRACT way (like meta study: a study analysing other studies. Or meta gaming: Gaining an ingame advantage by an outgame action, e.g. lag).
It does NOT just mean "super" or "uber" on some measuring scale.

I am absolutely puzzled how a term can be twisted to such an extent by such a broad community.
My only explanation is a collective intellectual defect that hinders many MWO people to recognize the abstract meaning and distinct "meta" from "super".

So, for the love of god, if you consider yourself to be at least halfway intelligent, PLEASE use the term meta in the correct way and not in the MWO community way.

Fine. Meta as in BEYOND the spirit of the game. There? Happy?

The full derogatory insult is:
Hack metacrutch L33T tryhard alphawarrior.

Steinar Bergstol, on 27 August 2015 - 01:48 AM, said:

Another example can be taken from my weekly TT roleplaying group, a bunch of guys I've played RPGs and tabletop games with since we were all in our late teens and early 20's in the 90's. One of those players will bend, twist and exploit every rule and loophole to create his characters, coming up with the most powerful build possible no matter the setting or the intent of the rules. He is a self-admitted cheesemonger. Meanwhile another of our players always creates quirky characters from rarely used classes and takes into account the setting and background every time.

Both are viable ways to make a character. One, however, obviously results regularly in far more powerful end products than the other, and every now and again this does lead to internal frustration in the Group.

This is why I left my last TT gaming group.

[Kiiyor]

ugrakarma, on 27 August 2015 - 04:00 AM, said:

I dunno man... It was pretty bad, I didn't play peeps and gauss that much, but whenever I did there was always someone on the team who completely shat on you for using it. I mean CoC breaking full spite putting you down just because you used a certain build. It's not that bad these days, but it certainly left a really bad taste towards these Knights of the Noble Way.

Yeah, people deal with frustration in different ways - most... poorly.

I'm a live and let live kind of guy. I fully acknowledge that most of my builds aren't cutting edge, but I won't judge or belittle others from running more meta than me.

[Kh0rn]

Dar1ng One, on 27 August 2015 - 03:46 AM, said:

I agree and practice the same philosophy as Kh0rn. I love the Atlas. Maybe to the point of obsession.

I love to brawl, but even I have faltered to the meta game a couple of times, and used the PPC x 2, Gauss Combo, before the charging. Now with the IS Large Lasers, and 3 x Lg Pulse Pulse Laser quirks and modules, I have kitted out a few Atlai with this combination, sadly removing the AC20, because with PINPOINT CONVERGENCE, I can do 33 points of LP damage with infinite ammo at 400 metres vs 270 metre damage with limited AC 20 ammo. The heat is easily negated with cool shots and chain fire and lots of Double Heat sinks normally filled with ammo.

You see, the only real problem with MWO - A Battletech game, is the PINPOINT CONVERGENCE.

If you had a Thunderbolt with 7 x Med Pulse (the CW Meta) and you played it in the Battletech Tabletop. You might roll the CT a few times, LT RT etc etc and the damage would spread. With an AC 20. It would all land on one location and if it hit the head, game over.

Again like Kh0rn states, (who is one of the top Atlai pilots in MWO) the path of least resistance is human nature. The meta player you can instantly spot as they will have 1 type of weapon, or sometimes 2.

The most Common you will see at this point in time.

Thunderbolt - 7 x Med Pulse
Helbringer - 7 x Med Pulse
Stalker - 6 x Large Laser
Hellbringer - 4 x ER Large Laser (fired in groups of 2)
Streak crow - 5 x S SRM6 - (great for high ping servers for score events)
Streak Dog - 6 X SRM6 - see above
LRM dog 4 x LRM 10 or 6 x LRM 5 - same with catapult

Timberwolf - Laser vomit - 2 x Lg Pulse 4 X ER Med Laser with cooldown module on the ER so it times with the lg pulse
Timberwold - 1 x Gauss - 4 x ER Med Laser with range extender
Jager AC 20
Gauss Jager
King Cran 4 x UAC 5 or 6 x AC 2
Artic Cheatah 5 x Small Pulse or ER small laser
Grasshoper 3 x Lg Pulse

My Atlas Meta - 3 X Lg Pulse, 1 X LBX 10

Relax, it's just a game.

I had no idea there was a meta build. I'v held onto the top Atlas pilot title until now but that is because of my pure dedication to wade through the hell storm of meta with it with out giving up. But it is reaching a point no because I am going up against 228 , Emp and SJR that the Atlas is just not viable any more. Perhaps the major rebalance will fix it or not but I am thinking of switching to the mauler if it proves to be more viable.

My indication of a good pilot is not one who can win with the highest level tech an easy to use weapons. But a pilot who can take a lower tier mech with a more battle tech like load out and still come out on top. To me that is a good player.

But another cause we have meta is the total freedom of the mechlab. Sure its a nice thing to build and mess around with mechs. But in a game. Its going to throw every and any balance attempt right out the window. Cause now people can just swap out an change what ever the hell they feel like on the fly with out any draw backs or consideration to the purpose of the mech or variant.

I'm going to use this and I don't care if people get pissed of. MWLL variant system with out a mech lab is proof of it. Each chassis in the game has 8 variants are build with different weapons and roles. Now the game is based on a rock paper scissor effect. There is no single asset that is considered OP , meta or cheese because now mechs function in there intended roles and if use else would result in major draw backs. However do not rid the mech lab but change it so it reflects builds mechs or variants in the role they were meant for.

Edited by Kh0rn, 27 August 2015 - 04:16 AM.

[bad arcade kitty]

any mech has meta builds, altas too
but some mechs are more meta than others

[Mycrus]

Soultraxx, on 26 August 2015 - 11:40 PM, said:

1) hack meta leet tryhard
2) cheese build

Ive seen these two phrases being thrown around today in a derogitory fashion.


Now Im quite sure it is referring to

1) a player type and build
2) a build type

If I understand them correctly, they represent what is considered the current way to play/ build a mech that will produce a win ?

When these phrases are used it is almost always with anger or frustration - why is this, if this is the way to win?

Many thanks

this is an example of a hax meta l33t cheeze whiz build...

basic cicada with 6 med lazor... so OP... mucho cheese...



those that are complaining about mechs/builds are just really bad.. bads.

[Kh0rn]

Mycrus, on 27 August 2015 - 04:18 AM, said:

this is an example of a hax meta l33t cheeze whiz build...

basic cicada with 6 med lazor... so OP... mucho cheese...



those that are complaining about mechs/builds are just really bad.. bads.

You can't base that assumption off a single game doing well. I had game where I did 1800 damage in a Atlas , does not mean any thing. Any mech can do an amazing score once in a while.

[Mycrus]

Kh0rn, on 27 August 2015 - 04:21 AM, said:

You can't base that assumption off a single game doing well. I had game where I did 1800 damage in a Atlas , does not mean any thing. Any mech can do an amazing score once in a while.

so is this the part I say "1v1 me brah?!"

the theoretical if two pilots of equal skill meets and one brings a jenner and the other brings a Cheetos... never bloody happens in the real world...

my dmg increased by 300-400 pts by just having 5ms ping... ping is a bigger issue than metamechs...

[MoonfireSpam]

These words are thrown out by people as a direct result of excess salt from defeat. Increased salinity causes a decrease in brain function so most of the time they probably aren't actually aware of what has been said. Usually removal from source of salt will correct this.

[The Ratfink]

My understanding of cheese builds has always been about exploiting one advantage the mech has. The builds as a whole are not the best normally limited by range or heat but normally result in some kind of extreme in either alpha or dps.

Examples
5-6 UAC DW
16 CSpL Nova
6 CSSRM Mad Dog
6 ERPPC Awsome
6 LPL Banshee

Try hards are just Power gamers, even if a build is boring as **** they will use it because it gives them a 5% advantage.

[Kh0rn]

Dar1ng One, on 27 August 2015 - 04:34 AM, said:

Yeah, Myc, going with Kh0rn on this one.

Your just an amazing pilot in anything. I have seen you do big scores with a Commando. I believe your an OP cake, and the meta builds are just cream on top.

Hey Kh0rn, I know you don't run meta, and I respect the hell out you for it. I feel dirty when there is only 2 types of weapon in my Atlai.

I never will. Sadly tho due to the game nature being based on fast twitchy gameplay and less about you actually sitting in a large tank like mech. I enjoy the slower and tactical gameplay of Living legends. Where mechs operate more like a mech. Each class has its roles to perform, Information is critical and the battles and capturing points actually contribute to the battle. But I myself have done it I took a firestarter which was unbasic because it was the trial one and a few games scored 400-600 damage with out to much effort. I was moving through enemy ranks feeling like " Hell this is an Atlas down scaled" I'v used meta as part of tests an it most certainly takes far less skill to operate. the mere indication that these builds are prominent in every game an in large masses pretty much assumes they are far more effective and easy to use. As I myself climbed into a hellbringer which I own and geared it to the same level. It was astonishing how much more effective I was. But I just say Meta is a easy solution to a victory. I prefer a challenge and there is not better feeling then putting down a L33t wannabe's Lasrer vomit tier 1 Timber wolf with a T3 Mixed load out Atlas.

But like I said before: Total freedom of the mech lab is the route of such stale variety and such load outs and cause of all the out cry by people. Some times restriction have to be put down for the sake of the game.

Edited by Kh0rn, 27 August 2015 - 04:51 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Alistair Winter, on 27 August 2015 - 01:11 AM, said:

"Cheese" is a tabletop term, it's frequently used in other tabletop games than Battletech, such as Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000. A "cheese build" basically means you're min-maxing in the most obvious way, usually paying no attention to the spirit of the rules or the lore of that particular universe. It's a cheap way to victory.

It has little to do with the fact that some people are more competitive than others. It's possible to have a personal ethos and still be very competitive. People just have different views on sportsmanship and how to play these kinds of games.

In a sense, it comes down to ethics. These types of discussions are not unique to MWO or Battletech, they're not even unique to video games. You'll see the same discussion in a number of different sports, even though the term 'cheese' isn't used there. In boxing, for example, people will argue about the fairness of avoiding engagements when you're up on points, either by running away or by holding your opponent (e.g. Mayweather vs Pacman). To many people, it's a cheap way to victory that goes against the spirit of the rules, even though it's not strictly against the rules.

it's also been used in Video Games for at least 25 years. Back in the days of Street Fighter 2 competitions, Chun Li was referred to as Cheese-Li, due to her heel stomp, throw combo, for instance.