116 replies to this topic

[M4rtyr]

Vlad Ward, on 31 August 2015 - 03:39 PM, said:

This is the point I'm trying to make, though.

No amount of balancing will make LRMs comparable to Ballistics and Lasers. They will be intentionally weaker. Always. Forever. It is not a side-effect of ECM. They are balanced with ECM in mind.

Nothing they do to ECM will change the dominance of lasers and heavy ballistics. High level play won't budge. This is because any significant nerf to ECM will be immediately followed by a nerf to LRMs.

Like one poster mentioned earlier, LRMs are a crutch weapon for people playing on toasters that get 5 FPS or who simply lack the hand-eye coordination to play a first person shooter. Given MWO's generally older, less FPS-inclined player base, I can see why a weapon system like this would be good to have around. However, because of this, it is necessary for PGI to give them an exceptionally low performance ceiling.

LRMs will never see a net performance increase so long as they maintain their status as toaster crutches. Which is a shame, because I kinda like missiles and I'll never use them in their current state.

See now there you are completely wrong. LRM's can be balanced with other weapons but none of the weapons are balanced now, most of the ballistics are sub=par as well. But the main thing that invalidates LRMs and SRMS is direct damage weapons have pinpoint damage placement. That breaks so many things from the armor mechanic to the concepts of all the components, to weapon balance.

But to say they can never be balanced is just ignorant because they were perfectly balanced in TT... yeah yeah turn-based can't equal realtime FPS. But all the concepts can still be the same...

Create a cone of fire to prevent pinpoint damage/convergence
Make a real heat scale so Lazers (and alpha's in general) aren't so dominate because heat is supposed to be their one draw back.
Fix ECM so it's not the almighty
Then balance weapon damages and heat once you have all this other BS out of the way.

It's really not that hard but PGI/IGP started off down the wrong, and very dark, path long ago and have never found their way back from it. I question if they have the ability to.

[Soldier91]

lrm's and ssrm's are really good already.
LRM mechs do nothing to scare me even in a light (they do a total of one damage) those clan LRM bursts hurt though even the improved gyro mod doesn't help.

Edited by Soldier91, 31 August 2015 - 04:13 PM.

[Vlad Ward]

M4rtyr, on 31 August 2015 - 03:54 PM, said:

See now there you are completely wrong. LRM's can be balanced with other weapons but none of the weapons are balanced now, most of the ballistics are sub=par as well. But the main thing that invalidates LRMs and SRMS is direct damage weapons have pinpoint damage placement. That breaks so many things from the armor mechanic to the concepts of all the components, to weapon balance.

But to say they can never be balanced is just ignorant because they were perfectly balanced in TT... yeah yeah turn-based can't equal realtime FPS. But all the concepts can still be the same...

Create a cone of fire to prevent pinpoint damage/convergence
Make a real heat scale so Lazers (and alpha's in general) aren't so dominate because heat is supposed to be their one draw back.
Fix ECM so it's not the almighty
Then balance weapon damages and heat once you have all this other BS out of the way.

It's really not that hard but PGI/IGP started off down the wrong, and very dark, path long ago and have never found their way back from it. I question if they have the ability to.

You're not listening.

I didn't say they can't be buffed to be on par with direct fire.

I said they won't.

It will never be done. It is a conscious decision PGI has made.

They will never make the toaster handicap comparable to pew pew in a FPS. MWO is an FPS. Ergo, toaster handicaps will always be weak.

Cone of fire is such a drastic change to a core game mechanic that you'll never, ever see it happen. MWO has been released for years now. They aren't going to suddenly add a cone of fire to a game that has always had pinpoint convergence. Sorry.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 31 August 2015 - 04:13 PM.

[LordNothing]

ecm and lerms are pretty much stuck with eachother, you cant change one without changing the other. the problem with lerms is its too easy to use in indirect fire mode. the problem with ecm is that it is a hard of a counter for targeting in general (including info gathering). indirect lerms need to be nerfed, direct lerms need to be buffed, scouting needs to be buffed, and ecm needs to be a soft counter.

right now its hard to get missile locks so its hard to do direct and indirect fire (dumbfire is still an option though), its difficult to scout well because you cant lock anything without getting too close or giving away your position with a tag. there are solutions that are easy (perhaps even for pgi): seprate angel and guardian systems, 3 mode ecm, c3 networks (MWLL way), invisible tag. any one of which will improve the game significantly.

MWLL did lerms/ecm/electronic warfare right. idk why pgi cant learn from that.

[Hotthedd]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 31 August 2015 - 01:45 PM, said:

Show me a game where you do good damage with LRMs when you dont use locks and only fire without them.

Yeah cause they dont work like that and wouldnt if you took the lock away. Take away the lock and you might as well remove them from the game given that theyd just be big srms at that point. Ppl already enbgage at half the range

Imagine being able to guide your LRMs through reticle tracking. Over and around obstacles, ECM no real issue if you have LoS, etc. Up the speed to be on par with ACs and they become a dangerous direct-fire weapon as well, without being long range streaks.

Lock is a broken mechanic that stops LRMs from being the weapon they COULD be.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Hotthedd, on 31 August 2015 - 05:57 PM, said:

Imagine being able to guide your LRMs through reticle tracking. Over and around obstacles, ECM no real issue if you have LoS, etc. Up the speed to be on par with ACs and they become a dangerous direct-fire weapon as well, without being long range streaks.

Lock is a broken mechanic that stops LRMs from being the weapon they COULD be.

and while youre busy guiding your missiles your body is getting ripped apart. This mechanic would not work in this game at all

[Hotthedd]

Chados, on 31 August 2015 - 02:11 PM, said:

I disagree. I've done blindfire at 900 meters. It's incredibly difficult. The only reason I registered a hit is because the target was trying to snipe me and wasn't moving, and didn't realize I was shooting at him til the salvo hit him. Most of the time blindfiring is best used for area jnterdiction, because LRMs impacting on a ridgeline will keep snipers on the reverse slope or behind buildings. The main reason my LRM hit percentage is in the high 20s is because I use them in just this way when I can't get a lock, so my team can push without getting sniped.

Okay, but I was specifically talking about hitting a fast moving light with LRMs by reticle tracking...
And it is easier the farther away they are.

[Hotthedd]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 31 August 2015 - 06:01 PM, said:

and while youre busy guiding your missiles your body is getting ripped apart. This mechanic would not work in this game at all

You mean like cERLL are now?

Remember, if the speed is upped to AC/5 levels, facetime is LESS than that of the LL boat.

[Kjudoon]

Hothedd the maps are too small for this to be practical. We would need a minimum of 20km wide maps. Places you could really get lost in and range and scale mattered.

[Hotthedd]

Kjudoon, on 31 August 2015 - 06:08 PM, said:

Hothedd the maps are too small for this to be practical. We would need a minimum of 20km wide maps. Places you could really get lost in and range and scale mattered.

What? Why?

Making LRMs worthwhile as direct fire, ad removing ECMs hard counter for indirect fire would make you need bigger maps WHY?

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Hotthedd, on 31 August 2015 - 06:05 PM, said:

You mean like cERLL are now?

Remember, if the speed is upped to AC/5 levels, facetime is LESS than that of the LL boat.

er what? You have Cerlls that you need to guide to the target? Mine I just point and click.

[Vlad Ward]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 31 August 2015 - 06:12 PM, said:

er what? You have Cerlls that you need to guide to the target? Mine I just point and click.

He's talking about exposure time.

cERLL have a long burn time. They're not a hop and pop weapon.

Removing auto-lock and adding player-guidance or manual aim mechanics opens the door for doubling or even tripling missile velocity.

If PGI ever releases MRMs, I'd want them to basically be a reskin of Clan Ultra Autocannons. That kind of velocity.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Vlad Ward, on 31 August 2015 - 06:15 PM, said:

Removing auto-lock and adding player-guidance or manual aim mechanics opens the door for doubling or even tripling missile velocity.

Would destroy them imo.

You want to see them completely dissapear from the battlefield? Yeah do that

[Hotthedd]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 31 August 2015 - 06:12 PM, said:

er what? You have Cerlls that you need to guide to the target? Mine I just point and click.

Ummm...

They are hit-scan. You actually have to keep the reticle on the target to do damage.


Vlad beat me to it.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Hotthedd, on 31 August 2015 - 06:17 PM, said:

Ummm...

They are hit-scan. You actually have to keep the reticle on the target to do damage.


Vlad beat me to it.

Is that why laser vomit is all the rage and LRMs are seen as useless?

[Hotthedd]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 31 August 2015 - 06:18 PM, said:

Is that why laser vomit is all the rage and LRMs are seen as useless?

No sir, that is not why.
But that IS why upping LRM speed and tracking with the reticle would make them better weapons.

LRMs are not the best weapons precisely BECAUSE you cannot aim them.

Edited by Hotthedd, 31 August 2015 - 06:20 PM.

[Vlad Ward]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 31 August 2015 - 06:17 PM, said:

Would destroy them imo.

You want to see them completely dissapear from the battlefield? Yeah do that

I mean, it's not like they're going to be allowed to get much better than they are right now without significant, core mechanical changes.

I'd also be willing to take well designed MRMs if people really, really want to keep their toaster crutch system.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Vlad Ward, on 31 August 2015 - 06:44 PM, said:

I mean, it's not like they're going to be allowed to get much better than they are right now without significant, core mechanical changes.

Which never will happen and lrms arent allowed to be better than they are because it causes ppl to freak out and we have lrmageddon or lrmpocalypse

[Vlad Ward]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 31 August 2015 - 07:05 PM, said:

Which never will happen and lrms arent allowed to be better than they are because it causes ppl to freak out and we have lrmageddon or lrmpocalypse

That's what I'm saying. No one would freak out about LRMs being good if auto-aim was removed. Auto-aim + Good is the combination people freak out about.

Edit: But you're right. As much as I love ideas like this one, it's way too late in the game to completely overhaul LRMs.

It'd be nice if we got functional MRMs, though.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 31 August 2015 - 07:10 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

LRMs need to be viable direct fire weapons

nope they dont. those are called MRMs. theyre direct fire missiles that have longer range than SRMs.

what you want are MRMs added to the game.



Even in tabletop LRMs are horrible damage weapons. LRMs are supposed to be more of a utility weapon. They let you do things that other weapons cant like indirect fire or use different ammo types like swarm LRMs, thunder LRMs, incendiary LRMs.

The best way to fix LRMs and make them require more skill to get away from the whole idea of them being damage weapons and instead turn them into a utility weapon with different ammo types that allow things like area denial, area bombardment, etc...

Nerf ECM stealth, nerf LRM indirect damage (they should only be threatening if youre tagged/narcd), and instead turn LRMs into a utility/area denial weapon that requires thought and skill on how to best use the different ammo types at your disposal.

Edited by Khobai, 31 August 2015 - 08:00 PM.