39 replies to this topic

[FightingFetus]

All Mechs should innately be able to cancel out ECM if the enemy ECM is within a very small range (ie. 90m).

EDIT 3: Clarification: Without a TAG or NARC, the ECM should still prevent TARGET LOCKS. But it's position should be revealed on the map if it is within 90m of another mech. That's all I'm saying.

There is no reason in the world that an enemy mech with ECM standing 5m DIRECTLY BEHIND my Mech would not be detected. OR EVEN IF IM FACING RIGHT AT IT.. still not detected.

ECM is not a CLOAK, the mech does not turn invisible. Camera's and standard laser rangefinding TODAY would be able to detect and relay the information of an object that is physically and visually there... Hell, Heat vision mode shows it clear as day. And dont tell me walking tanks 1000 years from now dont have 360 degree camera vision.

All Mechs should innately be able to cancel out ECM if the enemy ECM is within a very small range

Why 90m range? I think 180m makes more sense honestly but I'd settle for 90m since that is the range for Flamers and also helps avoid an inadvertent nerf to SPL with 110m range.


I can hear the "get Seismic Sensors" and "L2P noob" posts starting already, but you guys KNOW that this makes perfect sense. Give me one good reason why a hyper-advanced tank, 1000 years in the future, cant do what (basically) a standard "motion detection" camera app on my phone can do today.


EDIT: typo

EDIT 2: Love how the very first reply is, "equip BAP" ... do you know what "innately" means? It means standard, without having to equip something extra.


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Edited by FightingFetus, 02 September 2015 - 09:47 AM.

[TWIAFU]

FightingFetus, on 31 August 2015 - 10:20 AM, said:

All Mechs should innately be able to cancel out ECM if the enemy ECM is within a very small range (ie. 90m).

When you equip BAP, you do just that.

So, equip BAP if ECM is a problem. If that is to much to do, try telling your team's ECM mechs to change modes.

[Lorian Sunrider]

TWIAFU, on 31 August 2015 - 11:05 AM, said:

When you equip BAP, you do just that.

So, equip BAP if ECM is a problem. If that is to much to do, try telling your team's ECM mechs to change modes.

Not if there are multiple ECM's.

The game is broken when there are multiple mechs under each others ECM bubbles.

[Mystere]

Lorian Sunrider, on 31 August 2015 - 11:35 AM, said:

Not if there are multiple ECM's.

The game is broken when there are multiple mechs under each others ECM bubbles.

It sounds more like your morale is breaking when you encounter multiple ECMs on the enemy side.

Edited by Mystere, 31 August 2015 - 12:10 PM.

[Lorian Sunrider]

Mystere, on 31 August 2015 - 11:37 AM, said:

t sounds more like your morale is breaking when you encounter multiple ECMs on the enemy side.

Honestly I could care less. Missiles are my least favorite weapon in the game outside of SRM's on my lights. For the most part if I'm a heavier mech I like ECM. If my radar goes fuzzy I know I'm likely to be flanked.

However, I think it's stupid that certain weapon systems are downright useless because of a broken mechanic. If I'm looking right at you, from two feet away, I accept ECM will give you a slower lock. But none at all? ********. Let me blind fire them then.

If people want ECM to be able to counter streaks then let streaks fire like regular SRM's if you don't have a lock.

Edited by Lorian Sunrider, 31 August 2015 - 11:46 AM.

[Alan Davion]

Lorian Sunrider, on 31 August 2015 - 11:35 AM, said:

Not if there are multiple ECM's.

The game is broken when there are multiple mechs under each others ECM bubbles.

Lorian Sunrider, on 31 August 2015 - 11:44 AM, said:

Honestly I could care less. Missiles are my least favorite weapon in the game outside of SRM's on my lights. For the most part if I'm a heavier mech I like ECM. If my radar goes fuzzy I know I'm likely to be flanked.

However, I think it's stupid that certain weapon systems are downright useless because of a broken mechanic. If I'm looking right at you, from two feet away, I accept ECM will give you a slower lock. But none at all? ********. Let me blind fire them then.

If people want ECM to be able to counter streaks then let streaks fire like regular SRM's if you don't have a lock.

There are so many things either just plain wrong, or out and out broken in this game it's gotten to the point of being a joke.

And not a funny joke either. A bad joke that just makes people shake their heads in shame having heard it.

That's what I think of these days when I see a team made up of 4 or more ECM mechs. I just hang my head in shame and shake it.

And what's worse, this upcoming range reduction for ECM will just make more people bring ECM mechs. Probably upwards of 6-8 to ensure total coverage.

When a broken mechanic is broken further, forcing people to exploit that broken mechanic even more... There's something seriously, horrifically wrong with the game.

And frankly I think that's exactly what needs to happen to properly get PGI's attention on this. People need to start bringing nothing but ECM mechs for the devs to wake up and realize they've screwed up the ECM mechanic... And it's been that way since its inception.

Mystere, on 31 August 2015 - 11:37 AM, said:

t sounds more like your morale is breaking when you encounter multiple ECMs on the enemy side.

No offense dude, but I know it's broken, and I hope to christ you know it's broken, because if you don't know it's broken... Well frankly I'm not sure what to say.

[0bsidion]

Lorian Sunrider, on 31 August 2015 - 11:44 AM, said:

Honestly I could care less. Missiles are my least favorite weapon in the game outside of SRM's on my lights. For the most part if I'm a heavier mech I like ECM. If my radar goes fuzzy I know I'm likely to be flanked.

However, I think it's stupid that certain weapon systems are downright useless because of a broken mechanic. If I'm looking right at you, from two feet away, I accept ECM will give you a slower lock. But none at all? ********. Let me blind fire them then.

If people want ECM to be able to counter streaks then let streaks fire like regular SRM's if you don't have a lock.

So bring BAP like I do, and/or tag. You pretty much have to if you want to use streaks. They pay a tonnage tax to bring ECM, how would it be fair if everyone got to bypass it for free?

[Alan Davion]

0bsidion, on 31 August 2015 - 12:01 PM, said:

So bring BAP like I do, and/or tag. You pretty much have to if you want to use streaks. They pay a tonnage tax to bring ECM, how would it be fair if everyone got to bypass it for free?

Except the problem is, TAG doesn't work if you're trying to laze a target that's under multiple layers of ECM, whether that one mech you're targeting has ECM or not is irrelevant. If there are at least 2 ECM mechs anywhere near that first one, all you're doing with TAG is giving away your position. That's a whole ton wasted which could have gone to a real laser or two, if you like small lasers.

And BAP... I don't even know if BAP is working properly or not as I've just about given up on missiles of any kind in this God forsaken game.

[Yellonet]

0bsidion, on 31 August 2015 - 12:01 PM, said:

So bring BAP like I do, and/or tag. You pretty much have to if you want to use streaks. They pay a tonnage tax to bring ECM, how would it be fair if everyone got to bypass it for free?

It's not really an equal relationship though as ECM works over a much greater area than BAP do. Maybe BAP should be brought down in weight to balance its lower power compared to ECM.

[Mystere]

Alan Davion, on 31 August 2015 - 11:58 AM, said:

No offense dude, but I know it's broken, and I hope to christ you know it's broken, because if you don't know it's broken... Well frankly I'm not sure what to say.

Then you're not going to like this because ... I am fine with ECM as is.

Sure, some tweaks might be needed to the game like:

• dumb firing SSRMs when unable to lock
  
• better LRM mechanics
  
• TAG cutting though all ECM
  
• TAG visibility subject to atmospheric conditions

But overall I like the ECM implementation we have today.

I actually like the fact that the ECM-deficient side will have to work harder -- heck, they might even have to think harder, gasp! -- to overcome their disadvantage. If a team decides to bring an overpowering amount of destruction in lieu of electronics, then that is their decision to make.

And I am not afraid of this predicted ECM armageddon -- assuming it even happens. I predict I will still thrive hunting them down.

Edited by Mystere, 31 August 2015 - 12:27 PM.

[Thunder Child]

Nothing wrong with 2-3 tons of ECM Negating 10-50 tons (depending on how many Lurmbuckets your team gets stuck with) worth of weapon systems. Especially since 2-3 tons of BAP/TAG and/or an additional 4 tons of Narc can neutralize the ECM, if the Bap carriers can get within 180m without getting insta-gibbed, or the Narc Pilot is a good shot.

Or, rather than asking PGI to change Core Mechanics to improve the game, which they are unlikely to do, they could just buff the Lurm speed to 650ms so that the damned things are actually usable in a Direct Firefight. And make it so Streaks fired without a Lock just act like normal SRMs.

Edit: Hell, remove Guidance all together. Just buff the damned Flight Speeds to let me Lurmish at LONG RANGE targets without needing to be a friggin mind reader and predict the enemy advance by 5 secs.
Do I want a different mechanic entirely for LRMs? Hell yes. I'd love them to function like Grenades in most other FPS games, where I can choose the trajectory of the throw. But a simple buff to flight speed would make them functional as a direct fire weapon (which spreads ALL OVER THE TARGET), without making them the OP Hand of God. And if they get a buff to flight speed, Indirect Locks can be removed if there is no TAG or Narc Spotter.

Edited by Thunder Child, 31 August 2015 - 12:34 PM.

[0bsidion]

Alan Davion, on 31 August 2015 - 12:13 PM, said:

Except the problem is, TAG doesn't work if you're trying to laze a target that's under multiple layers of ECM, whether that one mech you're targeting has ECM or not is irrelevant. If there are at least 2 ECM mechs anywhere near that first one, all you're doing with TAG is giving away your position. That's a whole ton wasted which could have gone to a real laser or two, if you like small lasers.

And BAP... I don't even know if BAP is working properly or not as I've just about given up on missiles of any kind in this God forsaken game.

I've never had TAG fail on anything within its range, so I've never experienced this. If it is failing on you that sounds like either your aim is off, it's a bug, or it's a logic fail on PGI's part, because it shouldn't matter how many layers of ECM are floating around, it's a fricking laser. ECM doesn't distort light. And BAP works great for me.

Edited by 0bsidion, 31 August 2015 - 01:13 PM.

[Lykaon]

Mystere, on 31 August 2015 - 12:24 PM, said:

I actually like the fact that the ECM-deficient side will have to work harder -- heck, they might even have to think harder, gasp! -- to overcome their disadvantage. If a team decides to bring an overpowering amount of destruction in lieu of electronics, then that is their decision to make.

This of course means you are also OK with the matchmaker randomly assigning handicaps to teams because the matchmaker does not take ECM mechs into account when building a match.

This is my primary reason for disliking Skirmish mode.

The matchmaker does not take into account anything but pilot skill and mech weight.

A Tier 4 pilot in a Quickdraw is equal to a Tier 4 pilot in a Hellbringer with ECM in the eyes of the match maker.If skill is indeed equal than the ECM and clan tech factors become advantages unaccounted for by the match maker.

[Lorian Sunrider]

0bsidion, on 31 August 2015 - 01:12 PM, said:

I've never had TAG fail on anything within its range, so I've never experienced this. If it is failing on you that sounds like either your aim is off, it's a bug, or it's a logic fail on PGI's part, because it shouldn't matter how many layers of ECM are floating around, it's a fricking laser. ECM doesn't distort light. And BAP works great for me.

It absolutely is a thing. I had a thread on a it a couple weeks ago.

http://mwomercs.com/...27#entry4609427

When there are multiple ECM's within range of each other you are unable to get a target lock, even if you have BAP and Tag.

Edited by Lorian Sunrider, 31 August 2015 - 01:29 PM.

[Mystere]

Lykaon, on 31 August 2015 - 01:22 PM, said:

This of course means you are also OK with the matchmaker randomly assigning handicaps to teams because the matchmaker does not take ECM mechs into account when building a match.

This is my primary reason for disliking Skirmish mode.

The matchmaker does not take into account anything but pilot skill and mech weight.

A Tier 4 pilot in a Quickdraw is equal to a Tier 4 pilot in a Hellbringer with ECM in the eyes of the match maker.If skill is indeed equal than the ECM and clan tech factors become advantages unaccounted for by the match maker.

Here is a hint: I liked the original random "matchmaker" of closed beta, even if I only played solo (and still do).

Also, making the matchmaker distribute the ECM count between both sides creates a slipper slope I think no one seriously would want. Do you really want your team to be a perfect mirror image of the enemy?

[Jello2142]

ECM became a bigger pain in the nuts as the amount of ECM mechs increased over time. The distance, while cannon, is a bit far for a game IMO so 90m is probably a good start to toss my 2m c-bills in what I think wold be cool is if

1)Leave ECM functionally the same but reduce the amount of mechs that can use it. Be it "command style" mechs or what have you. Some could argue you will see a pile of that type of chassis resulting in a influx of lights or assaults but IDK that the argument would stand when 3 D-DC's for example is not an impossible force to deal with.

2) Completely change ECM altogether which shouldn't be a big deal since I think technically NARC isn't supposed to work while in ECM anyhow but it does right now I think. Allow those bringing LRMS and SSRMS (Steaks) to the party can target and fire so long as target stays LOS with a lock time penalty or some crap. Targeting data does not get transmitted to anyone on your team.

Now I just came back within the last 2-3 weeks and some of this stuff may actually be there not 100% sure since I don't use steaks or lurms. Just keep that in mind before jumping my crap :-)

[Lykaon]

Also for the record unless something has changed in the past 24 hours...

TAG will effect a marked target no matter how many ECM are covering it.However your TAG will not transmit to other team mates if YOU are effected by hostile ECM.

ECM reduces your mechs sensors ability to detect enemy mechs by 75%.This means any mech that fall under 25% your maximum sensor range will be detected.This range is generaly at 200m depending upon factors like BAP or sensor range modules in use.

One active probe will cancel one ECM (the closest ECM) multiple overlaping ECM will counter a single BAP.

UAVs detect all mechs in it's sensor range in a 360 degree arc.UAVs also counter ECM.

So if you are piloting a streak boat and find yourself under hostile ECM you should have the following.

An active probe on board to cancel the closest ECM
A TAG to mark your intended target.
A UAV deployed over you to cancel ECM effects in the area and allow your team mates to see the enemy you are engaged with.

If you are piloting an LRM boat you must have both a TAG and an Active probe.If you are piloting a clan tech LRM boat that has a speed of 80kph or better try to fit a NARC launcher as well.

[C E Dwyer]

FightingFetus, on 31 August 2015 - 10:20 AM, said:

All Mechs should innately be able to cancel out ECM if the enemy ECM is within a very small range (ie. 90m).

There is no reason in the world that an enemy mech with ECM standing 5m DIRECTLY BEHIND my Mech would not be detected. OR EVEN IF IM FACING RIGHT AT IT.. still not detected.

ECM is not a CLOAK, the mech does not turn invisible. Camera's and standard laser rangefinding TODAY would be able to detect and relay the information of an object that is physically and visually there... Hell, Heat vision mode shows it clear as day. And dont tell me walking tanks 1000 years from now dont have 360 degree camera vision.

All Mechs should innately be able to cancel out ECM if the enemy ECM is within a very small range

Why 90m range? I think 180m makes more sense honestly but I'd settle for 90m since that is the range for Flamers and also helps avoid an inadvertent nerf to SPL with 110m range.


I can hear the "get Seismic Sensors" and "L2P noob" posts starting already, but you guys KNOW that this makes perfect sense. Give me one good reason why a hyper-advanced tank, 1000 years in the future, cant do what (basically) a standard "motion detection" camera app on my phone can do today.




EDIT: typo

Its not a cloak now, a cloak makes it invisible, no matter how it effects the all ectronic targeting you can still see it point your weapons at it and hit it

*face palm*

Edited by Cathy, 31 August 2015 - 01:40 PM.

[stjobe]

The missile code has been broken since design. At least in part because of this, ECM has also been broken since design.

PGI, in their infinite wisdom, don't want to change the broken missile code, but since they've introduced several new ECM 'mechs, it has gotten to a point where almost all weight classes on both sides have at least one ECM chassis, and therefore even the masterminds at PGI realizes ECM actually is broken and needs a change.

But they still don't want to change its mechanics, so what they do is change a single number in an XML file to change the radius from 180 to 90 meters, and think this will fix ECM.

I don't have the proper words to describe how insane this sounds to me.

ECM needs a complete rewrite, as does the missile code (for one, two disparate systems shouldn't have to share their lock-on code, nor should targeting and lock-on share the same code).

I've written about how I feel a closer-to-lore missile system could work before; the gist of the idea is a reworked lock system, where each SRM tube or group of five LRM tubes lock individually, and once they fire their missile, they lose lock and have to re-acquire it. SRMs and LRMs (but not SSRMs) can be fired at any time (even without hard lock) and those tubes that have no lock will just fire straight at the target reticule.

In exchange for losing lock after each firing, the launchers gain the ability to dead-fire as described above, and more importantly fire-and-forget capability. I.e. once you've locked on to a target, you will hit it (terrain permitting). How many missiles will hit will be affected by LoS, Artemis, TAG, Narc, ECM, AMS, and so on.

Locked LRMs would have a high arc as they have currently, but dumb-fired ones should have a much shallower arc, almost like SRMs.

This means that SRMs and LRMs basically will work as SSRMs do now, and SSRMs won't fire unless all tubes have a hard lock (thus becoming the ammo-conserving tech they are supposed to be - not the "better missile" tech they are now).

MRMs, if we ever get them, would be like our current SRMs (i.e. always dumb-fired, can't lock, can't fire-and-forget).

ECM, on the other hand, should not hard-counter missile locks; it should only delay it (and possibly reduce the number of missiles that do hit).

[Screech]

What exactly is the ECM stopping you from doing within 90m? You are seriously complaining about your inability to notice a giant stompy robot less then 90m away from you by blaming ECM? Get off the Doritos your shirt is a mess.