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The Executioner: Masc Of The Executioner, A Gargles Tale

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#1 Deathlike

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Posted 01 September 2015 - 06:22 PM

It's hard to get away from nostalgia. I've admitted as much. When MW4 Mercs made this mech essentially the must-have mech, it was all sorts of awesome. Not even MW2 Mercs did this mech justice.

However, nostalgia only goes so far... especially in MWO. Setting proper expectations is hard... and while this mech bears no real relation to the Gargoyle... (unlike the Arctic Cheetah replacing the Mist Lynx)... the shape bears a great resemblance to that mech (probably to someone's dismay) and ironically as such does function mostly the same way. Fair or unfair... it is also known as "Gargles v2" or "Gargles Sr.".

I was somewhat planning to write this up earlier, but frustration set in... and the Executioner-D was an important factor (I'm behind on the Direwolf-S/W followup actually, but I'll share some bits here), so I'll take a longer planned discussion about MASC, since this mech benefits the most from it (until, we see more MASC in the game... and the Shadowcat is a poor mech to stress that value).


Knowing that "3" is great for a lot of things... that is the number of sections that will be discussed here.


1) Omnipods - Those torso mounts are "spectacular".
2) Field Report - If a Gargoyle and Warhawk walked into a bar..
3) The Future - It's not a Banshee, but...


1) Omnipods - Those hardpoints don't make you look big...

The Gargoyle is honestly the best point of reference... when looking at the mech w/o the Executioner-D's side torsos. While this mech is unquirked for now, the omnipods are fascinating, yet odd. Let's take a lot at the critical parts...


Right Arm:
EXE-PRIME - 2E
EXE-A - 4E
EXE-B - 1E
EXE-D - 7E

The only variants that have lower arm actuators are the Prime and the A... where the Prime has the additional hand actuator. While the D looks tempting, I'd like to point out that the order of energy weapon placement is rather peculiar in the arm, where it starts from the lowest hardpoints and works its way to a higher mount. Regardless... the energy arm is a staple feature unless you'd like an appearance of the Executioner-C (1M). Yea... I thought so.


Left Arm:
EXE-PRIME - 1B
EXE-A - 3E
EXE-B - 1B
EXE-D - 2M

While you get some diverse options, the D is a total waste (unless you're going to LRM route... in which case you might as well have used a Warhawk instead). The ballistic arm is probably a safer bet if you like running ballistics, but the option is there... The A will certainly get some play.


Right Torso:
EXE-PRIME - 2B
EXE-A - 2B
EXE-B - 1E, 1AMS
EXE-D - 2E


If you like your dakka, you have a limited opportunity to show it (2MGs in that section). Crit space will limit your options unfortunately. High mounts is an advantage here no matter which option you go with. However, the D shows off the most potential here unless you really need that AMS from the B.


Left Torso:
EXE-PRIME - n/a
EXE-A - n/a
EXE-B - n/a
EXE-D - 1E

Despite MASC, the all important hardpoint slot comes from the D. While I understand the purpose of the bonus variant... tying its value to the mech (because the mech is worse off w/o it) is honestly a painful wait. Torso mounts are critically important when you compare it to a Gargoyle that is limited to the occasional CT mount.


Until the release of the D, you had at most a 1E or 2B Left Torso mount... now it's 3E or 1E+2B in sum.


So, how does this all piece together?


2) Field Report - MASC to the rescue?

If you've ever "successfully" driven a Warhawk or a Gargoyle, then the Executioner isn't a far cry from either mech.

For a Gargoyle... while it may be as fast as a Timberwolf, its actual tonnage and firepower usage is closer to a Hellbringer.

In the case of the Executioner, its tonnage is actually closer to a Timberwolf, which by Assault standards are pretty pathetic (well, when the Direwolf is part of the equation, everything looks bad... until the Kodiak).

The Warhawk for however large its engine is, there's plenty of space to work with... but with limited hardpoints and crits to play with with massive tonnage preconsumed (a lot into DHS... see its left torso). Warhawk is fairly fragile.. though optimal for hit and runs.

The Executioner has the same problem... although having Timberwolf-tonnage, but there are limits to the hardpoints (missiles and ballistics are somewhat limited) and lots of tonnage consumed (MASC and 8 tons of JJs).


When you combine the a lot of the traits between both, you get a mech that still has Timberwolf level of firepower (not too shabby, but meh compared to the Direwolf), but pretty agile for its tonnage... but oddly a bit fragile to some degree.


One of the things I've learned a bit while using a Dire Wolf... (past making the original post) is how the meta-building has somewhat evolved. While the Hellbringer does have high ballistic mounts (which is always great), the Dire Wolf does not quite have them (it's higher than the arms, but not by much). The Executioner has high ballistic torso mounts... but the actual problem is durability... and usually the reason why running something like Gauss is moved to the arms... for better weapon and ammo locality (CASE everywhere has a practical use).

While I'm not going to dissuade people from using the torso mounts for ballistics (it's usable, but not always optimal), it is a magnet for fire and running Gauss on that does accelerate your own death. In the case of the Hellbringer, it's really isolated from all the laser vomit on the other side.. and doesn't really hurt the DHS loss (putting DHS all on one side tends to offset much of the loss of a side torso - it doesn't negate it.. it only mitigates it).


One of the most notable "quirks" (it's not really a quirk, but a feature) of the mech is the lowered torso twist. It would have been nice to have it be @ 75 degrees as it would've regained 90 degrees of torso twisting (of course, that requires eliting the mech out), but the mech is actually given increased torso pitch.... which is the most of ANY Assault in the game. Remember that the Atlas has the worst pitch of all the Assaults AND that the Firestarters has the worst pitch (and its torso weapons are low mounted). This is pretty significant since the Executioner is rather tall, and needs this (although it was kinda pointless w/o the D's side torso omnipods).


Despite the low torso twist, the entire "compensation" comes in the form of MASC. If you don't use it... you're missing out. While it honestly doesn't make the mech a speed demon (because it's still going bloody slow), but it allows the mech to go into a sort of "overdrive" where it becomes crazy nimble when it needs to be ... just by applying MASC.

The best use of MASC is still to climb over stuff quicker and improve the JJ lift (while in the air even), but you gain the ability to lead a charge and make it out alive kinda like a Timberwolf (not quite, but close enough) instead of an Atlas or Direwolf... or more appropriately something like a Warhawk (which can't really tank too much) that once committing can't really "back out" (outside of blocking teammates and getting them killed indirectly - hello Terra Therma).

While I don't think this will replace a Direwolf in a comp-level dropdeck, but for a CW dropdeck that does need Assault mechs to push with, the Executioner would probably be the current "next best" substitute over other Clan Assault options.

Just remember that MASC is on the left side of the mech... usually the "weak side" of the mech as most players will likely load up on the right side of the mech, but with the D's omnipod additions... it can be equal and some cases better than the right side if you really wanted it to be that way.... I do believe that sword and board is probably the optimal choice as much as I'd prefer something somewhat symmetrical in firepower (MASC is valuable, but not always useful).


So... I bet you're wondering... is there more to come?


3) The Future - Gain 4 Tons How???

There are still a few lines of thought in terms of omnimechs... whether they should have the ability to generally Add something like Endo Steel (and FF) to mechs (4 tons for the Executioner) that don't have them... or the ability to remove hardlocked components such as MASC (4 tons) or JJs (8 tons - 4 2-ton JJs is a lot).

Even then, the mech is serviceable enough as is, but it'll probably need quirks for omnipods that probably should get some love like side torso omnipods that are not the D... and perhaps a useful missile hardpoint (anything but LRMs please :P ) and energy hardpoints that don't look like much love exists for them (B and D's right arm).

It still bugs me that the lower arm actuators are an inconsistent theme for PGI (B's right arm is "inferior" to the A's right arm)... but it is what it is.


TL;DR

While I don't think the Executioner will ever be a great mech... it still improves upon the Gargoyle's arm-locked design with torso options while gaining the speed+agility of the Warhawk and then some thru MASC.

I haven't spoken much about Hoverjets™, but they are still real and less crappy as they were before, but it's still bad for the 8 tons committed to them. I don't think too much quirkage has to be done for the Executioner, but MW4 nostalgia is the only reason why people were actually pretty hyped up for a somewhat mediocre fanfare of a release.

I can almost assure you that that Black Knight is next (though, I still have an Urbie review and a Direwolf-JJ review to write, with some sidebars)... but maybe I'll look towards the Wolfhound for some more interesting commentary soon™.


I love my Gargles, and I love my Garglesv2 (or Gargles Sr). Now if only the Gargles get some sweet torso love themselves... I know it's a pipe dream, but it's an "awesome" one too...

#2 Ultimax

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Posted 01 September 2015 - 06:44 PM

Good write up.


The only thing I'd add is that the LA mounts are nice because that arm is shorter than the RA (and therefore a touch higher) and the energy weapons don't mount starting on the bottom (baffling).



Here's an example of the slotting order:

Posted Image




The obvious downside is that it has fewer E hardpoints.


The LT has MASC, so going left side build allows you to at least shield that - OTOH the D RT has the 2x E mounts so many builds end up right side biased.

#3 Deathlike

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Posted 01 September 2015 - 06:47 PM

Yea... I should have mentioned the mounts (I'm pretty sure I made a slight mention), but it's beyond my understanding how PGI decides to "order up" the positions of the energy weapons (and occasionally missiles, because those make the hitboxes grow like tumors or something).

#4 Mcgral18

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Posted 01 September 2015 - 06:49 PM

One correction to make, The Glad gains 4.5 tons from Endo, to Mr Gargles 4 even.


A Gauss Rifle's worth of tonnage devoted to support equipment is quite the price to pay, or the 18 tons of total hardwired equipment.

#5 Ultimax

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Posted 01 September 2015 - 06:55 PM

View PostDeathlike, on 01 September 2015 - 06:47 PM, said:

Yea... I should have mentioned the mounts (I'm pretty sure I made a slight mention), but it's beyond my understanding how PGI decides to "order up" the positions of the energy weapons (and occasionally missiles, because those make the hitboxes grow like tumors or something).



It's really baffling, I don't understand why the EXE-A LA energy start from the top, but the EXE-D RA start from the bottom.

#6 Deathlike

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Posted 01 September 2015 - 06:59 PM

View PostMcgral18, on 01 September 2015 - 06:49 PM, said:

One correction to make, The Glad gains 4.5 tons from Endo, to Mr Gargles 4 even.


My bad... I forget about how the roundoff is done at times (math > me).


Quote

A Gauss Rifle's worth of tonnage devoted to support equipment is quite the price to pay, or the 18 tons of total hardwired equipment.


It is a lot of tonnage spent.

#7 KharnZor

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Posted 01 September 2015 - 08:09 PM

Good write up. I've been trying to decide what variant to get first...
I still dont know what i'll be getting first but this will go a long way towards helping me make that decision.
So tyvm :)

#8 Deathlike

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Posted 01 September 2015 - 08:11 PM

View PostKharnZor, on 01 September 2015 - 08:09 PM, said:

Good write up. I've been trying to decide what variant to get first...
I still dont know what i'll be getting first but this will go a long way towards helping me make that decision.
So tyvm :)


It doesn't really matter given that there's no unique CT.

You'll end up getting a lot of D-omnipods though.

#9 Khobai

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Posted 01 September 2015 - 08:11 PM

Quote

While I don't think this will replace a Direwolf in a comp-level dropdeck, but for a CW dropdeck that does need Assault mechs to push with, the Executioner would probably be the current "next best" substitute over other Clan Assault options.


Direwolf isnt really a comp-level mech IMO. its so friggin slow. I would actually say the Executioner is more competitive than the Dire Wolf since keeping up with your teams timberwolves/stormcrows is pretty important. Having jumpjets/MASC can help it hillclimb a lot better than the Direwolf too.

Can the Executioner beat a Direwolf 1v1? Not really. But the whole point of the Executioner is that its fast enough to keep up with the other mechs so it doesnt have to ever fight anything 1v1.

x2 LPL and x5 ERML is a pretty damn scary Executioner build.

The only thing keeping the Executioner from being a top tier mech are its locked jumpjets. Its losing 8 tons there and the JJs arnt really worth it. I definitely think all non-S omnipod jumpjets should be unlocked. Only the jumpjets on the S-omnipods should remain locked. That would help a lot of other mechs like the Summoner too.

Edited by Khobai, 01 September 2015 - 08:22 PM.


#10 Sigilum Sanctum

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Posted 01 September 2015 - 08:12 PM

I really wish the single fixed DHS didn't exist in the right torso...

#11 Deathlike

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Posted 01 September 2015 - 08:16 PM

View PostKhobai, on 01 September 2015 - 08:11 PM, said:


Direwolf isnt really a comp-level mech IMO. its so friggin slow. I would actually say the Executioner is more competitive than the Dire Wolf since keeping up with your teams timberwolves/stormcrows is pretty important. Having jumpjets and MASC can help it hillclimb a lot better than the Direwolf too.

Can the Executioner beat a Direwolf 1v1? Not really. But the whole point of the Executioner is that its fast enough to keep up with the other mechs so it doesnt have to ever fight anything 1v1.

x2 LPL and x5 ERML is a pretty damn scary Executioner build.


The Direwolf is a comp mech due to firepower... especially when mastering positioning is when it dominates.

The Executioner only wishes it could dual Gauss worth a damn.

#12 FupDup

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Posted 01 September 2015 - 08:17 PM

View PostKhobai, on 01 September 2015 - 08:11 PM, said:

Direwolf isnt really a comp-level mech IMO. its so friggin slow. I would actually say the Executioner is more competitive than the Dire Wolf since keeping up with your teams timberwolves/stormcrows is pretty important. Having jumpjets and MASC can help it hillclimb a lot better than the Direwolf too.

That "weakness" of the Daishi is solved when compie teams stick together and use good positions. Meanwhile, it still has the most firepower of any mech in the game's history.

The Whale doesn't need to keep up with the Crows or Wolves, those two just need to keep up with the Whale.

#13 Mcgral18

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Posted 01 September 2015 - 08:21 PM

View PostDeathlike, on 01 September 2015 - 08:16 PM, said:


The Direwolf is a comp mech due to firepower... especially when mastering positioning is when it dominates.

The Executioner only wishes it could dual Gauss worth a damn.


Mr Gargles follows those dreams.


18 tons of hardwired equipment VS 6, but Mr Gargles could save 7 tons from going 400>375. He could Dual Gauss at 83 Kph with max armour (and a single E hardpoint of choice).


But this isn't about Mr Gargles being a Battlemech.

#14 Khobai

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Posted 01 September 2015 - 08:26 PM

Quote

That "weakness" of the Daishi is solved when compie teams stick together and use good positions. Meanwhile, it still has the most firepower of any mech in the game's history.


Maybe. One team has to lose though. And theres something to be said for having an entire team of fast mechs that can redeploy at a moments notice. Being able to exploit a weak flank is a huge part of winning competitive games.

I would not dismiss the Executioner when played by someone who knows how to use its strengths.

#15 Deathlike

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Posted 01 September 2015 - 08:27 PM

View PostKhobai, on 01 September 2015 - 08:26 PM, said:


Maybe. One team has to lose though. And theres something to be said for having an entire team of fast mechs that can redeploy at a moments notice. Being able to exploit a weak flank is a huge part of winning competitive games.

I would not dismiss the Executioner when played by someone who knows how to use its strengths.


For CW, speed and an Executioner makes some sense.

For Comp... facetime with a Direwolf = super low TTK.

#16 FupDup

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Posted 01 September 2015 - 08:27 PM

View PostKhobai, on 01 September 2015 - 08:26 PM, said:

Maybe. One team has to lose though. And theres something to be said for having an entire team of fast mechs that can redeploy at a moments notice. Being able to exploit a weak flank is a huge part of winning competitive games.

I would not dismiss the Executioner when played by someone who knows how to use its strengths.

Good positioning for the Whale's team implies that there isn't a weak flank...

#17 Ultimax

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Posted 01 September 2015 - 08:34 PM

View PostKhobai, on 01 September 2015 - 08:11 PM, said:

Direwolf isnt really a comp-level mech IMO. its so friggin slow. I would actually say the Executioner is more competitive than the



You are literally talking straight up crazy sauce right now.


There is zero reality to your statement.


Not just a lack of facts, a lack of reality.


Please watch some actual competitive matches - whenever there are no special restrictions in place you will see teams bring Dire Wolves.


It is the most powerful assault mech in the game.

#18 FupDup

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Posted 01 September 2015 - 08:35 PM

View PostUltimatum X, on 01 September 2015 - 08:34 PM, said:



You are literally talking straight up crazy sauce right now.


There is zero reality to your statement.


Not just a lack of facts, a lack of reality.


Please watch some actual competitive matches - whenever there are no special restrictions in place you will see teams bring Dire Wolves.


It is the most powerful assault mech in the game.

His argument has been invalidated.



#19 Khobai

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Posted 01 September 2015 - 08:39 PM

Quote

Please watch some actual competitive matches - whenever there are no special restrictions in place you will see teams bring Dire Wolves.


any competitive match worth playing is going to have special restrictions though. It would be completely dumb to allow a team of 12 direwolves.

#20 Saint Scarlett Johan

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Posted 01 September 2015 - 08:39 PM

View PostKhobai, on 01 September 2015 - 08:11 PM, said:


Direwolf isnt really a comp-level mech IMO.


Dude... what?

Seriously?

Have you not kept up with RHOD, MLMW, or MRBC at all?





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