220 replies to this topic

[Yokaiko]

MischiefSC, on 09 September 2015 - 07:06 PM, said:

Without ghost heat? Absolutely. That thing ran so cold you couldn't overheat it if you wanted to. It would crush the face off the current Thudder and Stalker metas, same as it crushed the face off everything else.

This mech, because if you are that cool you aren't running any lasers http://mwo.smurfy-ne...e7d2d4a2815b7f0

Lets, see then, cool yeah, significantly less armor (remember thud has tank quirks, and stalker is 85 tons) only arm mounted weapons and a IS XL (you weren't running a standard, you would barely be able to get a 200 in there) Lower alpha and DPS and could absorb ONLY the first strike be either the Thud or the Stalker before its dead from a side torso loss.

MischiefSC, on 09 September 2015 - 07:06 PM, said:

I know, I ran the bjesus out of them before ghost heat. Both AC20s were the same heat as 3 medium lasers. WIth a 4 second cooldown it was a beast. So Ghost Heat. Not an ideal solution but, meh. 2ac20s 2MLs was more damage than a thudder at the same range for 50% less heat. The THudder gets maybe 3 alphas with a bit of a pause and then he's heatcapped. The pre-ghost heat boomjag could keep puking 50 pt alphas on him until it runs out of ammo.

OH so you were running lasers huh?
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...bad963e0923aef7

THAT never overheated? Really? Because I have a variety of mechs that are pure laser and run cooler, starting with the -5SS, Wolverine -6K, Enforce -4P

MischiefSC, on 09 September 2015 - 07:06 PM, said:

So buff CACs. SRMs are pretty balanced. Clan SRMs can be boated *in addition* to other weapons because of their low weight and clan built in CASE and CXL means the ammo explosion risk isn't there. A XL griffin is no match in any way shape or form for an SRM Scrow. The scrow pops a torso off the griffin and it's over.

So make CUACs not ghost heat themselves (never had this happen and I run CUACs in 5s or 10s on Dires and Timber Wolves) and do something nifty with LBX, then nerf lasers. Do all this after we see what the rebalance looks like.

We are going to have to agree to disagree there.

[Narcissistic Martyr]

IS SRMs need either a damage buff or a much tighter cone of fire to make them comparable to clan SRMs.Alternatively clan SRMs could ripple fire in two waves as the launcher is litterally half the size but able to fire more quickly.

I also think SRMs should have a soft locking ability that as you hold the reticule near a target that is in range the cone of fire reduces. This ability should take longer for clan SRMS. Additionally, each SRM beyond the first one increases CoF by a certain percentage in addition to the ghost heat effects due to limitations in the targeting computer.

This makes one launcher perfectly good and makes chain firing the better option farther away but allows SRM boats to shine up close.

LRMs... need a complete redesign not only of LRMs but of ECM, Artemis, and BAP as well.

I'd suggest having them do damage in groups of 5 (once again the answer is more TT), have a much higher velocity (light mechs outrunning missiles lolz), make them fire and forget, and greatly reduce their rate of fire. I'd also require a lock every time you fire a launcher and have it have to gather a new lock after firing a LRM launcher.

Certain mechs that are TT LRM boats would naturally have quirks to accelerate lock on and have increased range on their visual sensors (1000m or more compared to the 800 m that is standard atm)

For indirect fire, the allied mech has to not be under ECM and they have to get a fresh lock for you each time you want to fire.

NARC should probably act as a continuous lock considering you have to risk quite a lot to get that close.

Artemis should decrease lock on time for LRMS and increase the rate that SRM CoF decreases. Artemis equipped launchers take somewhat longer to lock onto indirectly targeted mechs.

Streaks should lock on like my suggested LRMs and function as they currently do. IS streaks should do 2.5 damage

BAP should include 360 degree targeting, thermal vision (either remove it as a base tech or allow increase detection range with BAP), seismic sensors, and show a dorito of any mech within say 200 meters on your minimap with a bonus or penalty to detection based on the size of the mech (lights may not show up until 100m but assaults might show up at 300 or 350). It should also retain its longer range due to better sensors

BAP and clan AP should now be limited like ECM to certain mechs. Both those that have it in TT and others as a quirk to make them stronger.

The individual components of BAP can be broken down into modules (extended radar range, seismic, etc).

Certain sub par mechs like the Myst Lynx should recieve large buffs to its BAP range and capabilities to give it a useful if non combat focused role.

ECM no longer prevents locks, but should increase the time required to obtain a lock, disable artemis, disable NARC, and prevent the mech from showing a dorito until it is within the enemy mech's maximum sensor range/2. ECM prevents target information sharing within 100 meters preventing LRM support from getting indirect locks. ECM now counters BAP instead of the other way around. The electronic interference shows up as a warning on the HUD of a countered BAP as "Warning ECM dectected." If the BAP mech is standing still the ECM mech may still show up on its seismic sensors.

[Khobai]

Quote

BAP should include 360 degree targeting, thermal vision (either remove it as a base tech or allow increase detection range with BAP), seismic sensors, and show a dorito of any mech within say 200 meters on your minimap with a bonus or penalty to detection based on the size of the mech (lights may not show up until 100m but assaults might show up at 300 or 350). It should also retain its longer range due to better sensors

So your solution is to make BAP as crazily overpowered as ECM?

BAP weighs 1.5 tons. Same with ECM. A double heatsink weighs 1 ton. So BAP and ECM should be slightly better than a double heatsink in terms of what they contribute...

They should NOT be game breaking pieces of equipment.

Thats the WHOLE problem with ECM. The benefits dont add up with the cost.

Edited by Khobai, 09 September 2015 - 08:40 PM.

[Lyoto Machida]

Narcissistic Martyr, on 09 September 2015 - 07:28 PM, said:

IS SRMs need either a damage buff or a much tighter cone of fire to make them comparable to clan SRMs.Alternatively clan SRMs could ripple fire in two waves as the launcher is litterally half the size but able to fire more quickly.

I also think SRMs should have a soft locking ability that as you hold the reticule near a target that is in range the cone of fire reduces. This ability should take longer for clan SRMS. Additionally, each SRM beyond the first one increases CoF by a certain percentage in addition to the ghost heat effects due to limitations in the targeting computer.

This makes one launcher perfectly good and makes chain firing the better option farther away but allows SRM boats to shine up close.

LRMs... need a complete redesign not only of LRMs but of ECM, Artemis, and BAP as well.

I'd suggest having them do damage in groups of 5 (once again the answer is more TT), have a much higher velocity (light mechs outrunning missiles lolz), make them fire and forget, and greatly reduce their rate of fire. I'd also require a lock every time you fire a launcher and have it have to gather a new lock after firing a LRM launcher.

Certain mechs that are TT LRM boats would naturally have quirks to accelerate lock on and have increased range on their visual sensors (1000m or more compared to the 800 m that is standard atm)

For indirect fire, the allied mech has to not be under ECM and they have to get a fresh lock for you each time you want to fire.

NARC should probably act as a continuous lock considering you have to risk quite a lot to get that close.

Artemis should decrease lock on time for LRMS and increase the rate that SRM CoF decreases. Artemis equipped launchers take somewhat longer to lock onto indirectly targeted mechs.

Streaks should lock on like my suggested LRMs and function as they currently do. IS streaks should do 2.5 damage

BAP should include 360 degree targeting, thermal vision (either remove it as a base tech or allow increase detection range with BAP), seismic sensors, and show a dorito of any mech within say 200 meters on your minimap with a bonus or penalty to detection based on the size of the mech (lights may not show up until 100m but assaults might show up at 300 or 350). It should also retain its longer range due to better sensors

BAP and clan AP should now be limited like ECM to certain mechs. Both those that have it in TT and others as a quirk to make them stronger.

The individual components of BAP can be broken down into modules (extended radar range, seismic, etc).

Certain sub par mechs like the Myst Lynx should recieve large buffs to its BAP range and capabilities to give it a useful if non combat focused role.

ECM no longer prevents locks, but should increase the time required to obtain a lock, disable artemis, disable NARC, and prevent the mech from showing a dorito until it is within the enemy mech's maximum sensor range/2. ECM prevents target information sharing within 100 meters preventing LRM support from getting indirect locks. ECM now counters BAP instead of the other way around. The electronic interference shows up as a warning on the HUD of a countered BAP as "Warning ECM dectected." If the BAP mech is standing still the ECM mech may still show up on its seismic sensors.

That's a great start and something PGI should at least try to implement. Who knows if they could code it though?

[ChewBaka]

Frankly, I might be more supportive of buffing LRMS if the vast majority of LRM boaters out there actually show the initiative to get their own locks, and are willing to help spread dmg around for the team.

As it is, far too many LRM boats out there just ask for locks and expect people to face-tank on their behalf so that they can protect their precious paint jobs while whining about ammo explosions as though ballistic mechs don't have the same concerns. I don't want to encourage such lazy play styles.

I'm all for an Artemis buff because that encourages LRM boats to actually get out there and do something instead of sitting on their arses. LRMs fired indirectly...well, you ask me I would actually inflict more penalties on them like slowed target lock, more spread out dmg, half the missiles missing the target, etc.

Just my 2 cents...

[Narcissistic Martyr]

Lyoto Machida, on 09 September 2015 - 08:26 PM, said:

That's a great start and something PGI should at least try to implement. Who knows if they could code it though?

It's doable I think. Not sure if they have enough coders to devote to it though. And since this is the 4th or 5th time I've suggested these ideas since closed beta it's not gonna happen. It is doable though.

For example, we know CoF for SRMs can be changed (Artemis has a smaller CoF) so you'd just need a function that changes it on the fly as you target and aim at an enemy that finalizes in the last second that you fire. Might induce a very slight delay between button click and missiles away but if that is covered up by animation of the missiles accelerating away from your mech I think that would be ok.

The LRMs... you'd have to require a lock like streaks do and somehow lock out all but one launcher. Forcing chain fire in groups with LRM launchers would probably be the easiest way. Getting them do damage like streaks is doable I think. Making them hit in groups of 5 isn't too hard just animate them like a small group of missiles. The actual animation the players see for this kind of lock on weapon isn't really as important as the invisible bean bag that the server uses to determine what hits the target where.m Ideally they're the same size and move in the same locations though.

Forcing your ally to get a lock for you for indirect fire might be difficult to code. The ally lock acquisition part isn't hard, you could just apply the streak lock on mechanics you currently have to do the locking bit. The sharing it part would need need code that simply says to the LRM support you have lock if you're targeting this mech.

The ECM stuff... well increased lock on time is to opposite of the reduced lock on time that BAP currently gives so we know that can be altered. You can already target ECM mechs up close so that'd be a fairly easy number to swap around...

Most of the BAP functions I mentioned are already in the game so it'd just be combining them into one piece of equipment.

Adding in the auto detection within a certain range would require new code though so that might take a long time to implement.

[SpiceMelange]

Side note about SRMS. Has it ever bothered anyone that it makes no sense for them to move around and spread as they do. Technically the missiles would hit each other and explode hitting your mech or not even reaching the enemy mech.

[Kmieciu]

I never liked SRMs being a "short range shotgun". I very much preferred SRMs from MW2, MW3 and MW4

How about stream fire, little to no spread and a velocity increase?

[mass extinction]

Sounds like we just need to remove ghost the heat from SRMs, and increase the flight speed of LRMs but reduce their damage.

[William Mountbank]

Just an idea: Maybe each LRM5 shot should target a random component. Because why should LRM5 have a better TTK than LRM20?

[Yokaiko]

William Mountbank, on 09 September 2015 - 11:53 PM, said:

Just an idea: Maybe each LRM5 shot should target a random component. Because why should LRM5 have a better TTK than LRM20?

Because reasons

[TheCharlatan]

SRMs are too unreliable right now: my 4xSRM6 boats go from zero to hero on a match to match basis: you have to get a brawl going on (which sometimes in PUGlandia dosen't even happen) and you need your missiles to register.
They are bad, really bad.
But i still love them, because when the stars allign and you catch the back of a Cheater midflight with 24 SRMs (non streaks) and they all actually register, annihilating the little f***** (yes, this has actually happened) the satisfaction is just through the roof.

Hit-reg on missiles needs to impove before we can make any damage change.

[Lykaon]

I do not see a need to double nerf the clan tech SRMs. the reduced damage of 2.0 vs I.S. 2.5 (as proposed) should be plenty to effect a ballance even with half weight Clan systems.

Not to mention that increasing clan SRM spread isn't in the lore for clantech. It just doesn't feel appropriate as a clan weapon.

Another route to take other than outright nerfing damage per projectile would be to increase cool down times for the clan weapons. Just a thought...

[Satan n stuff]

Sarlic, on 09 September 2015 - 09:50 AM, said:

That's the hardest part. I agree. But i think there's a way. Like the TT rules, perphaps add a extra 'difficulty' mechanic or some kind to make boating more skilled. And i don't mean like a rediculous cooldown as we see on the gauss rifle.

Perhaps extra little heatbars when you chainfire them. Or when one volley you need to press a extra button to divide all the heat. (Just spewing some ideas here, might souns stupid but okay)

How about instead of the simple on/off lock-on mechanic we have now, we get one that locks instantly and starts with really low accuracy, becoming more accurate the longer you stay locked on without firing and with each missile fired reducing accuracy. Kind of like a recoil mechanic, it makes it harder to boat LRMS effectively but doesn't penalize mechs with fewer LRMs. You might still be able to fire the occasional accurate high damage alpha, but you'd be stuck with arty strike level spread for quite a while afterwards.

[Lily from animove]

Sarlic, on 09 September 2015 - 09:21 AM, said:

I want the totally mauling damage back we got before(?) the first invasion. All mechs were slower, as just the general gameplay. But less boating.

In it's current form boating the missiles is the only way to make it as a dangerous weapon. But with all current overly ECM equipped and speedy mechs i think it's justified to make both LRMs and SRMs 'viable' in speed and damage to make them also fearfull as a one rack instead of having to boat with it.

(Sorry my head explode by reading my reply by myself).

Tldr: up the speed and damage.

No you don't want this back, otherwise enjoy your 6M mechs like MDD "one-scrapping" mechs.
there is now a range of emchs which would totally abuse the system if it would be that ridiculous again.

However missiles need help. especially lrm's. lrms should go faster. they should track on the spot pointes. So when you hover over a mech and fire, ty should track to this spot. Locks should only be required for indirect fire to track. This would increase the usability to go into direct line of fire combats with them. Also it would negate the ecm immunity, because you don't need to lick or target. Just point a place on the battlefield or a mech and fire. Then misiles go there.

[Yokaiko]

Like I said rose colored glasses, everyone was boating their asses off from CB until the first Invasion wave landed.

Guass-cats, Boom-cats, Splat-cats, Boom-jagers, dakka jagers, Swaybacks, MPL Awesomes, any-damn-thing that could pair x2 PPC and gauss, Jenners -F (the man's Jenner)

Its not a new condition, and the mechs weren't slower.

[Sarlic]

Satan n stuff, on 10 September 2015 - 01:31 AM, said:

How about instead of the simple on/off lock-on mechanic we have now, we get one that locks instantly and starts with really low accuracy, becoming more accurate the longer you stay locked on without firing and with each missile fired reducing accuracy. Kind of like a recoil mechanic, it makes it harder to boat LRMS effectively but doesn't penalize mechs with fewer LRMs. You might still be able to fire the occasional accurate high damage alpha, but you'd be stuck with arty strike level spread for quite a while afterwards.

Interesting.

Ah you mean something like a continous stream of fire and longer the lock, the less spread? But why wouldn't the player wait a little longer and then fire with more accuracy? (If the team doesnt lose lock by then and then the boater screams "HOLD LOCKS!"

But people have to face-time alot more for just a lock. I don't think people will be happy, the average locktime is already short on first sight, it gets more when a group pushes and or a uav is up.

But overall the locktime is pretty short.

I think if make boating 'too much skillfull' everyone will just cram gauss and lasers on their mechs again because 'Lol, LRM sucks.' just like we have with GH and other weird half-assed solutions.

Lily from animove, on 10 September 2015 - 01:41 AM, said:

No you don't want this back, otherwise enjoy your 6M mechs like MDD "one-scrapping" mechs.
there is now a range of emchs which would totally abuse the system if it would be that ridiculous again.

However missiles need help. especially lrm's. lrms should go faster. they should track on the spot pointes. So when you hover over a mech and fire, ty should track to this spot. Locks should only be required for indirect fire to track. This would increase the usability to go into direct line of fire combats with them. Also it would negate the ecm immunity, because you don't need to lick or target. Just point a place on the battlefield or a mech and fire. Then misiles go there.

Yes i want the crazy weapon values back, but boating must have some sort of mechanic to combat excessive boating.

Then counter the MDD first or a light should draw aggro on it. That simple actually. I did it with my Atlas K not too long ago in the group que. MDD + tag + stuffed TAG alone in the field. Me and a other teammate took it with easy because my AMS(still under peforming) catched missiles before he knew he gave up.

Yokaiko, on 10 September 2015 - 01:49 AM, said:

Like I said rose colored glasses, everyone was boating their asses off from CB until the first Invasion wave landed.

Guass-cats, Boom-cats, Splat-cats, Boom-jagers, dakka jagers, Swaybacks, MPL Awesomes, any-damn-thing that could pair x2 PPC and gauss, Jenners -F (the man's Jenner)

Its not a new condition, and the mechs weren't slower.

Quit spewing nonsense.

Sure we had issues then, but the speed of gameplay was much slower. The LRMs got upped in damage and speed at a certain point (can remember the exact values), but it got reverted because the amount of threads of people who couldn't get in cover fast enough because they either were lacking situational awareness and didnt go in cover fast enough. But those are the values i am talking about and how it should make LRMs more viable. (Apart from boating).

And then again we had much less ECM, much less speedy mechs (apart a few).

Should i remind you that there are still not many mechs equiping AMS because LRM are heavily undervalued.

Edited by Sarlic, 10 September 2015 - 01:58 AM.

[Yokaiko]

Sarlic, on 10 September 2015 - 01:52 AM, said:

Quit shittalking.

Sure we had issues then, but the speed of gameplay was much slower. The LRMs got upped in damage and speed at a certain point (can remember the exact values), but it got reverted because the amount of threads of people who couldn't get in cover fast enough because they either were lacking situational awareness and didnt go in cover fast enough.

And then again we had much less ECM, much less speedy mechs (apart a few).

LRM didn't get upped damage at one point they were 2.2 damage a round, missile boats were clocking ridiculous damage, and it went downhill from there.

But slower?

Please, I learned the game with 84kph awesome, and +115kph Hunchbacks and Cents, how long were SRMs doing 3-4x the amount if intended damage, a year? At least 9 months, that was splat-cats with 6xASRM6 could Alpha a front loaded Atlas.

SSRM hitting CT only, took them what three tries to reign that in, and streakcats were a thing.

Boomjagers and Cats smashing all the things, x4 and x6 PPC stalkers alphaing off arms in one salvo

LURMAGEDDON 1.0 when artemis made LRM land straight on peoples heads, with a near 90* angle
LUMMAGEDDON 2.0 when they increased the speed of the missiles by a factor of three and they became scary.

Slower, yeah, as long as the game has existed we have been beating PGI about the head and shoulders with their own mechanics.

you may have had less ECM, I had it, I hate poptarting with a passion, so I spent most of the poptart era in either a -3L or D-DC.

Edited by Yokaiko, 10 September 2015 - 02:02 AM.

[Sarlic]

http://mwomercs.com/...ne/page__st__20
http://mwomercs.com/...162370-lrms-op/
http://mwomercs.com/...pic/65533-lrms/
http://mwomercs.com/...andor-spotting/

Even fairly recent:
http://mwomercs.com/...ruin-this-game/
http://mwomercs.com/...as-of-11-16-14/

Gameplay wise things changed alot with the addition of overly ECM mechs, modules and mechs witth more speed.

Edited by Sarlic, 10 September 2015 - 02:07 AM.

[Yokaiko]

Yeah, so, I bet if you look through you'll find me telling people to get over it, LRM were fine.