73 replies to this topic

[Ted Wayz]

TL:DR PSR has the potential to kill this game.

The monetization of this game cannot rely on the "pay to win" model of League. Not only are the games completely different, but at a capitalization rate of <5% League relies on a huge player base in excess of 50 million.

Nor can it attain the 30% capitalization rate of World of Tanks and their "free to win" model.

Why? Because the number one revenue stream for both games is customization. And unfortunately this game has painted itself in a box in regards to customization.

What does this have to do with PSR?

Without the ability to easily sell "skins" this game relies on the sale of mechs and mech packs. First this number is finite due to what exists in source materials. Second there needs to be a reason to buy mechs. PSR takes away the reason to buy mechs for many.

I love Battletech and buy everything. I have spent thousands on this game. But I am not the norm. The normal capitalization is around $35 per player for a good game. But what if you are a new player and your first exposure is to start at Tier 4 and from there your feedback is going down in rank? Wouldn't you want to give a new player positive feedback? Especially if it is clear they cannot pay to improve (win).

Or what if you are a long time player, who likes to dabble with mechs and builds, sees that they can only improve if they play certain mechs that they already own and have mastered. What incentive does it give them to spend money?

Competitive players don't care about a cool looking mech if it isn't effective. It has been mentioned this already effects player buying preferences.

PGI needs to figure out how to properly incentivize players to spend money before the Steam release. The big carrots are already out there, most of which will be available for c-bills by the Steam release. What they do not need is a reason NOT to buy mechs.

And if people do not buy mechs after the Steam release, you have no game.

[Speedy Plysitkos]

nonsense.

it needs only small tunning.¨
NEXT.

[Wintersdark]

How do they have a reason to not buy mechs? I don't understand.

You can improve with any mech. Improvement is either through mech, loadout, or in game skill. Even if you lock the "mech" part down, there's lots of room for players to learn to be better in the mechlab, better in the field.

New players are pretty likely to go up in rating after a few matches. After all, basically everyone will eventually go up in rating no matter what, as it's not a zero sum game: you're statistically likely to go up in rating overall pretty much no matter what.

[Bishop Steiner]

Wintersdark, on 19 October 2015 - 03:22 PM, said:

How do they have a reason to not buy mechs? I don't understand.

You can improve with any mech. Improvement is either through mech, loadout, or in game skill. Even if you lock the "mech" part down, there's lots of room for players to learn to be better in the mechlab, better in the field.

New players are pretty likely to go up in rating after a few matches. After all, basically everyone will eventually go up in rating no matter what, as it's not a zero sum game: you're statistically likely to go up in rating overall pretty much no matter what.

When I see people post about the evils of PSR, yet they hide theirs? Makes me wonder if they are embarrassed and want it gone because of that.

I honestly was against public posting, but put mine up, because I honestly don't care. I'll at least make sure I have transparency on my side for any argument this way.

[Wintersdark]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 October 2015 - 03:29 PM, said:

When I see people post about the evils of PSR, yet they hide theirs? Makes me wonder if they are embarrassed and want it gone because of that.

I honestly was against public posting, but put mine up, because I honestly don't care. I'll at least make sure I have transparency on my side for any argument this way.

Yeah, I'm extremely indifferent, and have only put mine up for the same reason: transparency. I've never claimed to be a great player, just a fairly experienced one.


Don't get me wrong, I think PSR is deeply flawed and fundamentally no better or worse than Elo was (actually, possibly worse, but that's a discussion for another thread)... but I don't see it as a discouraging factor for new players.

When I was new? I'd probably have lost a lot of rating out of the gate. Hell, I didn't get my first legit (non-stolen) kill until 2013, more than a month after I started playing. Of course, that was a very different game, then, what with R&R, 8man vet squads pugstomping, etc. But still, after your initial matches, once you start getting the hang of the game, pretty much everyone is going to gradually improve; it's the nature of the system. The rate at which you improve will taper off as you get to roughly where you belong due to skill and mech choices, but if you care about your PSR rating it's going to keep going up simply because it's easy to do that.

For those who don't care about their PSR tier, it'll tend to level off somewhere - even at T5 - because they're playing the game as they want to play it, with the builds and mechs of their choice.

I kind of envy the T5 folk, because I bet they have really fun, varied matches.

[Bishop Steiner]

Wintersdark, on 19 October 2015 - 03:37 PM, said:

Yeah, I'm extremely indifferent, and have only put mine up for the same reason: transparency. I've never claimed to be a great player, just a fairly experienced one.


Don't get me wrong, I think PSR is deeply flawed and fundamentally no better or worse than Elo was (actually, possibly worse, but that's a discussion for another thread)... but I don't see it as a discouraging factor for new players.

When I was new? I'd probably have lost a lot of rating out of the gate. Hell, I didn't get my first legit (non-stolen) kill until 2013, more than a month after I started playing. Of course, that was a very different game, then, what with R&R, 8man vet squads pugstomping, etc. But still, after your initial matches, once you start getting the hang of the game, pretty much everyone is going to gradually improve; it's the nature of the system. The rate at which you improve will taper off as you get to roughly where you belong due to skill and mech choices, but if you care about your PSR rating it's going to keep going up simply because it's easy to do that.

For those who don't care about their PSR tier, it'll tend to level off somewhere - even at T5 - because they're playing the game as they want to play it, with the builds and mechs of their choice.

I kind of envy the T5 folk, because I bet they have really fun, varied matches.

Well, from my short stint in Tier 4 on my alt acct, I can say it was more varied.... for better and worse. But one thing I notice, is the higher the tier you get... the teamwork really doesn't get any better....despite the fact the PSR system is supposed to reward teamwork.... most matches are won or lost with a bare minimum of actual teamwork in the solo queues, regardless the Tier, unless you consider basic deathballs to be teamwork.

[MoonUnitBeta]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 October 2015 - 03:29 PM, said:

When I see people post about the evils of PSR, yet they hide theirs? Makes me wonder if they are embarrassed and want it gone because of that.

Not putting it up because they're embarrassed is a petty excuse and not one I'm convinced is something people are worried about.

I think it's more of a "ha! you're T5, what do you know?" kind of reaction that some people would much prefer to ignore.
But I guess if it's not "you're not T1, your argument is invalid." it's "you won't show your tier at all, so your argument is invalid."

I mean, if their argument isn't invalid by displaying their tier, which will be somewhere between 1-5, what's so upsetting about not showing it at all? Feeling the need to know their tier rating is just as meaningless as the rating itself.

When I see people who judge people about their lack of visibility over a meaningless rating, and then say "I honestly was against public posting, but put mine up, because I honestly don't care", it kind of makes me question how much you "honestly don't care."

Edited by MoonUnitBeta, 19 October 2015 - 03:44 PM.

[GRiPSViGiL]

Wintersdark, on 19 October 2015 - 03:22 PM, said:

How do they have a reason to not buy mechs? I don't understand.

You can improve with any mech. Improvement is either through mech, loadout, or in game skill. Even if you lock the "mech" part down, there's lots of room for players to learn to be better in the mechlab, better in the field.

New players are pretty likely to go up in rating after a few matches. After all, basically everyone will eventually go up in rating no matter what, as it's not a zero sum game: you're statistically likely to go up in rating overall pretty much no matter what.

The reason to not buy mechs is simple. Why do you need other than the tier 1 mechs? Only reason people buy the crappy non-tier 1 mechs is because of some loyalty to battletech nostalgia. People who don't have some kid fantasy concerning their fav mech only need the tier1 mechs. When you really break them down there isn't much difference other than skins and slightly different geometry/hitboxes. You could literally own one of each weight class and never need anything different. The mechs become redundant fast.

Edited by GRiPSViGiL, 19 October 2015 - 03:50 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 October 2015 - 03:40 PM, said:

Well, from my short stint in Tier 4 on my alt acct, I can say it was more varied.... for better and worse. But one thing I notice, is the higher the tier you get... the teamwork really doesn't get any better....despite the fact the PSR system is supposed to reward teamwork.... most matches are won or lost with a bare minimum of actual teamwork in the solo queues, regardless the Tier, unless you consider basic deathballs to be teamwork.

Yeah, back in the day, I tanked my light Elo down to (literal) rock bottom. It wasn't hard, as I was seeded for lights at "new player", and used exclusively a Spider 5V.

What I found at the bottom of the Underhive was that:

1) Teamwork was comparable: Ultimately, people are people - there are good sports and poor, team players and rambos, equally everywhere.
2) Mech builds varied DRAMATICALLY, and sometimes where truly, unspeakably bad. This made matches MUCH more random; as if your team was full of ridiculously horrible builds, you were kind of screwed from the get-go
3) If you weren't hell bent on winning all the time, battles where lots of fun. You never knew what you'd come up against, to a degree you don't see at higher levels of play.

[Onyxian]

Any ratings system with an upward bias is beyond stupid. A whole new realm of idiocy that shrinks haven't discovered yet.

I absolutely should not be a tier 2, and and despite getting destroyed regularly (if I get 200 damage, that's a good game for me now) since I came back a week or so ago after a bit of a break, my Tier bar is moving ever so slowly UP. Meaning no matter how poorly I play, I will eventually be in Tier 1. Unless I DC every game, which I am unwilling to do. Even running joke/troll builds, my team mates manage to carry me often enough that my bar slowly creeps up.

For shits and giggles, I played an old alt account (tier 4) for a couple games. I had a std engine locust with nothing but 4 mgs and a single SL (don't ask me what I was thinking) that I got almost 400 damage with. Some dude in a dire wolf just sat there while I shot at him for over a minute. I eventually stopped rocking back and forth and just stood there shooting at him. He never moved until he died, just sat there shooting. Played a LRM trebuchet and got 800 something damage (without adv target decay, or any modules for that matter)

So, I guess I should be tier 3.

[Mystere]

The very first thing I did after the patch is turn off PSR display. Ignorance is bliss!

[Wintersdark]

GRiPSViGiL, on 19 October 2015 - 03:46 PM, said:

The reason to not buy mechs is simple. Why do you need other than the tier 1 mechs? Only reason people buy the crappy non-tier 1 mechs is because of some loyalty to battletech nostalgia. People who don't have some kid fantasy concerning their fav mech only need the tier1 mechs. When you really break them down there isn't much difference other than skins and slightly different geometry/hitboxes. You could literally own one of each weight class and never need anything different. The mechs become redundant fast.

What does any of that have to do with PSR?

That isnt at all new, it's been that way for more than a year. Yet new mechs still sell like hotcakes because for many people (I'm going to say "most", actually) it's just fun to play different mechs.

Most players are not particularly competitive.

[Bishop Steiner]

MoonUnitBeta, on 19 October 2015 - 03:42 PM, said:

Not putting it up because they're embarrassed is a petty excuse and not one I'm convinced is something people are worried about.

I think it's more of a "ha! you're T5, what do you know?" kind of reaction that some people would much prefer to ignore.
But I guess if it's not "you're not T1, your argument is invalid." it's "you won't show your tier at all, so your argument is invalid."

I mean, if their argument isn't invalid by displaying their tier, which will be somewhere between 1-5, what's so upsetting about not showing it at all? Feeling the need to know their tier rating is just as meaningless as the rating itself.

When I see people who judge people about their lack of visibility over a meaningless rating, and then say "I honestly was against public posting, but put mine up, because I honestly don't care", it kind of makes me question how much you "honestly don't care."

I'm tier 3..my clan acct was tier 4. If I was looking to show off epeen, seems an odd way to do it.

On the other hand, if you don't have a perfect credit rating, top tier game badge, etc, it shows you realyl don't have anything to hide, or any epeen invested into it.

And seriously, MUB, if you are accusing me of pulling the "my tier is better than your tier card?" SMH, bro.

Could be I read the tone of too many of these posts, and the butthurt speaks volumes.

GRiPSViGiL, on 19 October 2015 - 03:46 PM, said:

The reason to not buy mechs is simple. Why do you need other than the tier 1 mechs? Only reason people buy the crappy non-tier 1 mechs is because of some loyalty to battletech nostalgia. People who don't have some kid fantasy concerning their fav mech only need the tier1 mechs. When you really break them down there isn't much difference other than skins and slightly different geometry/hitboxes. You could literally own one of each weight class and never need anything different. The mechs become redundant fast.

kind of funny to see a person rip people for "kid fantasies" when talking about video games for recreation in the first place......

Which are very much kid fantasy fulfillment.

[Xetelian]

I don't understand why I should hate PSR?

LoL is not 'pay to win'. I own every champion and have spent money on a few skins but I got all the champions for free all of them. I have over 6000 games played.

World of Tanks is similar to this game and has a much higher player base.

People don't spend money when they don't know what to buy. It isn't clear what mechs are the best for a new player. I tell people to get a SCR or TBR so they have a chance at a good time. Anything else is more of a challenge for people and mileage may vary

Edited by Xetelian, 19 October 2015 - 04:05 PM.

[MoonUnitBeta]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 October 2015 - 03:57 PM, said:

I'm tier 3..my clan acct was tier 4. If I was looking to show off epeen, seems an odd way to do it.

On the other hand, if you don't have a perfect credit rating, top tier game badge, etc, it shows you realyl don't have anything to hide, or any epeen invested into it.

And seriously, MUB, if you are accusing me of pulling the "my tier is better than your tier card?" SMH, bro.

Could be I read the tone of too many of these posts, and the butthurt speaks volumes.

I didn't imply that at all.

My point was:
SO WHAT if he's embarrassed?
Why does it matter at all if people show their tier or not? Maybe they do it to avoid all this nonsensical drama.

Edited by MoonUnitBeta, 19 October 2015 - 04:05 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Wintersdark, on 19 October 2015 - 03:56 PM, said:

What does any of that have to do with PSR?

That isnt at all new, it's been that way for more than a year. Yet new mechs still sell like hotcakes because for many people (I'm going to say "most", actually) it's just fun to play different mechs.

Most players are not particularly competitive.

eh, it was just more lashing out at people who would dare play an IP game for any reason than generic comp pro FPS epeen gratification.. because that is somehow less of a kiddy fantasy. "Look Ma!! !I'm uber awesome at this stompy robot video game!"

Cuz that gets you all the girls.

MoonUnitBeta, on 19 October 2015 - 04:01 PM, said:

I didn't imply that at all.

My point was:
SO WHAT if he's embarrassed?
Why does it matter at all if people show their tier or not? Maybe they do it to avoid all this nonsensical drama.

It matters about as much as people ranting about the evils of PSR.... just funny when a lot of time the probable REAL reason for it is pretty apparent.

Aka, people read WAY too much into silly stupid badge that is almost inevitably going to increase to tier 1 through sheer quantity of play.

The best I can tell it takes actual effort to drop tiers.

And...they want to avoid nonsensical drama... by making a nonsensical drama post?

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 19 October 2015 - 04:05 PM.

[GRiPSViGiL]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 October 2015 - 03:59 PM, said:

kind of funny to see a person rip people for "kid fantasies" when talking about video games for recreation in the first place......

Which are very much kid fantasy fulfillment.

What I meant by that is most people they milk with Mech packs loved BT from books, anime, toys as kids and have to have their fav. Video games are more a competitive outlet for me since I give no Fs about BT or its lore.

[Bishop Steiner]

GRiPSViGiL, on 19 October 2015 - 04:04 PM, said:

What I meant by that is most people they milk with Mech packs loved BT from books, anime, toys as kids and have to have their fav. Video games are more a competitive outlet for me since I give no Fs about BT or its lore.

OK, which is what I gathered, though the "tone" of your post, was a little condescending toward the one, when neither are, well, not exactly resume worthy endeavors in life.

My bad if I misinterpreted your meaning, but don't see how one pursuit is really different than the other.

[Johny Rocket]

I don't show my psr because I think making it public even to the player was a mistake. It just invites a lot of 733t nonsense.
I don't care if people know what my psr is because all it takes to get to 1 is lots of matches. If it ignored match KDR and w/l and used all the other bonuses, it would be a lot better measure of skill. I don't show mine because I don't support things I don't support.
Actual pleased with where I landed and when it came, I hit the cb lotto.

Edited by Tractor Joe, 19 October 2015 - 04:13 PM.

[MoonUnitBeta]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 October 2015 - 04:04 PM, said:

It matters about as much as people ranting about the evils of PSR.... just funny when a lot of time the probable REAL reason for it is pretty apparent.

Aka, people read WAY too much into silly stupid badge that is almost inevitably going to increase to tier 1 through sheer quantity of play.

The best I can tell it takes actual effort to drop tiers.

And...they want to avoid nonsensical drama... by making a nonsensical drama post?

It's just interesting that you laugh at people who read too much into Tier badges(visible ones), while you judge someone who chooses not to show it.

But when the day comes where people can't post on the forums because they don't show their tier, then that'll be the day I'm long gone.
Sadly that seems to already be fast approaching...