772 replies to this topic

[Gut]

IraqiWalker, on 11 September 2015 - 02:48 PM, said:

You do know they just made an ENTIRE forum, with it's own subforums per chassis, per weight class, for feedback, right? PGI seems very gung ho about our feedback, even on the forums. I've ran into more staff today on the forums, than I did in the last 3 weeks combined.

What I know is the active community who actually mostly know how to play the game and what they're talking about is on reddit. The vast majority of people who continue to post only on the forums does not come close to accurately portraying what a strong player looks like and therefore I do not take their input as seriously in regards to balance changes. For NPE, sure I'd take their opinion. For other stuff, not so much.

[ShinVector]

Resetting of quirks to defaults...

Kinda like the thought because it will fixed the IS vs. IS quirk power creep problem.

Negative quirks for Clan Mechs ok.

--

However at this point of time... Failing to see how the new rebalance with level Clan and IS... Offensively..
You can just completely ignore the sensor thing and shoot someone in the CT until it dies.

[NotGiggity32]

Three Quick things here:

1) The current quirk system has increased the play time for many chassis that all but disappeared from the game. I see a lot of Dragons and Hunchbacks, and occasionaly even a Quickdraw. For those people that own those mechs and enjoy playing them that is a good thing.

2) I don't believe any mech should ever have negative quirks, especially mechs like the Myst Lynx that aren't even good mechs to play with. Remember the Bricktors we had to deal with that had all the negative quirks? I actually play mine every now and again now that all of those negative quirks were removed.

3) From what I have seen the game boils down to this: The team that communicates better and works together wins. If you have two teams that are communicating or reacting well together then you have closer games. If one of the teams is not communicating well then you have blowouts.

[CtrlAltWheee]

Will be playing tonight.

Can we get a confirmation of how BAP and TIG module interact with the new infotech system?

The lock-on time after losing LOS quirk plays in with spotting and LRMs. Any info on further ECM changes (guardian/angel, other ideas) that we might want to factor in as we test? LRMs are pretty rough right now with quintuple redundant ecm on every team.

Credit for trying something new here.

[MechaBattler]

So the quirks that are in. Are they it? Or are we not seeing the weapon quirks for some reason? I only did one match so far. And I couldn't torso twist. So maybe not the best gage for it. But my UAC5s on my Enforcer-4R didn't seem worse.

[Sezneg]

FupDup, on 11 September 2015 - 02:47 PM, said:

No, because some of those mechs never needed negative quirks to begin with, it's pretty redundant.

Well hold on a minute. Because it's not redundant. They had to find a way to add pod variant differences using their existing quirk architecture. It's not pretty, PARTICULARLY when looking at it in the XML... but they're not REALLY nerfing the chasis so much as having different areas of specialization depending on which pods you bring.

[IraqiWalker]

Gut, on 11 September 2015 - 02:50 PM, said:

What I know is the active community who actually mostly know how to play the game and what they're talking about is on reddit. The vast majority of people who continue to post only on the forums does not come close to accurately portraying what a strong player looks like and therefore I do not take their input as seriously in regards to balance changes. For NPE, sure I'd take their opinion. For other stuff, not so much.

Yes, because Reddit isn't also chock full of terribads. What you said still doesn't change the fact that PGI is showing they are interested in our feedback, on the forums as well.

MechaBattler, on 11 September 2015 - 02:53 PM, said:

So the quirks that are in. Are they it? Or are we not seeing the weapon quirks for some reason? I only did one match so far. And I couldn't torso twist. So maybe not the best gage for it. But my UAC5s on my Enforcer-4R didn't seem worse.

weapon quirks got removed. We're starting from the ground up here. Almost.

[Legend_]

Using InfoTech or whatever you want to call it as a means of balance is moot when you take into consideration pure skill and ability at piloting and aiming a 'mech.

Simply put, you get pretty much nothing at all from getting a read out on a 'mech a few hundred meters further than other 'mechs do, and that is true in both solo queue/group queue and competitive matches.

Infomation Warfare, with present implementation, does not work to a meaningful advantage in MWO. Any good pilot can scout with nothing more than line of sight, you can even make out probably weapon loadouts from what you see.

I understand what the attempt is, and that these pushes towards bettered information warfare are some sort of step to find a similar advantage that particular aspect served in tabletop but MWO is not tabletop, it never has been and it never can be.

[Rebas Kradd]

I like the fact that information sharing will now be a distance thing. Will bring new depth to friendly mech placement.

The rough part is that most maps do not require electronic information-gathering, because they're designed so that you can see all the way across the map with your eyes. Until maps are designed to prevent information from being gathered so easily, that role for scouts will be redundant.

[PraetorGix]

coe7, on 11 September 2015 - 02:18 PM, said:

It's not my problem if you do not understand that there is no such thing as information warfare as presented here. Targetting data is not usefull information. (shocknews?) You know by chassis and what it fires where to shoot if its XL or not, you will go for CT on everything else, gunarms on mechs that pose them, etc. Now with tier play, where majority of people can aim, there is no longer chances of major splash damage all over the mech. Mechs are called as they are seen, shot on target priority level.

So what if it takes now bit longer to take targeting data on a good mech? I get to see yellow CT bit later where I would place my alpha regardless while peaking around the corner?

You don't really have faintest idea how bad majority of mechs now are due this patch, and how overpowered are those few mechs that carry high alpha with 0 sensor boosts? You will always choose what ever brings most of damage, since by default, this game is about majority shooting at few targets, thats where you move your troops. Ergo. Damage wins. Now with this ****, many hulls gets its damage potential removed due imagenary information warfare.

You are right in some of these things. But good luck getting your point thru while acting like a f***ing 12 year old brat.

[Doctor Young]

If ECM is completely rebalanced, information gathering could actually be really important if LRM boats come back into play. I think that LRM balance is going to end up being the critical make-or-break feature here, because people can aim at targets with lasers and ACs regardless of the presence of a Dorito. But, if LRM boats can demolish enemy teams with proper info gathering support, that would be important.

Another idea: if information gathering got you things like actual armor values of enemy mechs (eg, that Jagermech has only 15 leg armor, and also stored his ammo in the legs), that could provide powerful targeting information to your team.

[Moriquendi86]

I generally like the motion and I'm looking forward to it. Hovewer to make role warfare really worth it few things should happen as well to those changes:
- scanned enemy info and paperdoll needs to be shared between teammates effectively.
- scouted enemy variants should be added to score screen display during the game.
- there needs to be some good reward for doing scout job cbill and xp wise, good scout should get similar rewards if not greater as LRM boat that brings the rain from distance even if scout isn't doing much damage on it's own.

[Ashnod]

Tennex, on 11 September 2015 - 01:48 PM, said:

From what is posted above seems to be under the assumption that all 4 components that you guys are looking at (firepower, movement, protection, infotech) are of equal contribution to balance. But with information warfare as it is now, it doesn't seem like that particular part of the rhombus is as robust as it should be. Therefore buffing/nerfing the information ability of a mech in this "Mechwarrior Value" system may have very limited impact.

For example, as Information warfare works in game now, i dont personally see any reason to take a mech with its rhombus leading towards Information Warfare over one with high firepower. (Why take a mech that can acquire targets 50% faster over one that has 5% more damage to Medium Lasers?)

Heres a suggestion from a previous thread that got 120+ upvotes I hope you guys will consider it, at least further down the line:




http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__4564949

pgi... listen to this!

[FupDup]

Lol, I min-maxed the Executioner so hard that I got it to have a +280% torso twist speed.

[Davers]

IraqiWalker, on 11 September 2015 - 02:11 PM, said:

This community B****d and moaned about information warfare for the last 3 years+. Now that they are trying to put it in, you still complain!?

Is this really IW though? It seems more like a huge LRM nerf more than anything else.

Do mechs that are naturally slow (like a Direwolf) automatically get bonuses in other areas? Do mechs that are slow, but can potentially become much quicker (such as an Urbanmech) get rated on the upgraded engine potential or the base?

In the end I wonder about how useful the balance is. Just like with the new MM- is standing next to a heavier mech a lot really useful enough to raise my score, I have to wonder what effect sensor changes will really have.

IraqiWalker, on 11 September 2015 - 02:23 PM, said:

Considering I've been sifting through spreadsheets of their quirks, and what's going on, I actually have a better idea than you think, or probably do.

At the end, it's not my fault that you can't understand "this is a first draft, and things will get changed" or what a "first step" actually means. This could very well be a starting point for what eventually becomes information warfare. The difference here is that I'm looking at the long term, not short term.

After 3 years of waiting for "placeholders" to change I am really surprised you are making this argument. PGI has been much more known for long periods of no activity followed by huge swinging changes. Not small incremental balance tweaks. How long did it take PGI to make the suggested changes to mechlab from the PTS?

Cmdr Hurrell, on 11 September 2015 - 02:50 PM, said:

Quite the opposite in fact. Read again and you can see he's talking about giving slight advantages to the lighter chassis. Also, a bit of common sense would point that this is about a global balance. Making heavier mechs more powerful is, well, not balanced.

Does that mean a Locust will now have a large advantage over assault mechs? Does this mean the lightest mech in each category will be better than the heavier ones? If a 60 ton mech will have a "slight edge" over a 65 ton mech, what is the purpose of balancing CW and Group queue by tonnage limits?

[FupDup]

+280% torso twist speed FOR THE WIN baby.

[ShinVector]

Nobody else noticed they meddled with available modules slots ?

eg. Some mech only have 1 consumable.

Where else so, really odd choice eg. Commando DK now has the most modules slots of all commandos at Mech Slot 3, Weapon Slot 2, Mech/Weapon 1, Consumable 2.

[beerandasmoke]

The only way I could see the information warfare thing working is if they start messing with draw distance. A mech doesnt show up until it is in sensor range of another mech. Otherwise I dont need a dorita to shoot someone across the map especially on alpine, caustic, canyon. Everyone aims for the CT anyways and weve been operating under a massive ECM blanket for the last 6 months. Nobody really needs doritos anymore as long as they have LOS.

Secondly a light mech is not going to stand around out in the open just to get a dorito on someone. Thats like someone asking you to hold locks for LRMs. Its just a sureway to die. Im skeptical but will hold anymore thoughts till I get more info.

[EgoSlayer]

I can only hope this is the first pass, before the weapons quirks come back.

Sensor data is for the most part meaningless, and nobody in their right mind is going to take a sensor optimized mech over one that has better speed or firepower. With the prevalence of ECM in its current state, and the sizable part of the player base that doesn't even use "R", efforts on enhancing this aspect of the game have very little returns because entire games can be played and won without using it at all. And based on what I have seen so far the sensor changes appears to be another nail in the coffin for LRM's and their already limited use.

While many of the quirks were/are overboard, the fact of the matter is that the weapon quirks on the IS side bring some level of parity to Clan equipment that is otherwise impossible. Without the weapon quirks the IS doesn't have any firepower competition for what the Clans field.

To counter act the Clan weapon advantages without weapon buffs means huge *ARMOR* buffs are going to be necessary to soak all the extra damage the Clans can deal at range over time. Structure quirks are no where near as helpful as armor because the critical hit system ensures you will lose your weapons/ammo/heat sinks/etc usually long before the boosted structure component is destroyed.

I can only hope this is baby steps to getting to a better balance system, but so far it's looking like 5 steps back. Now we need the six steps forward.

Edited by EgoSlayer, 11 September 2015 - 03:36 PM.

[MischiefSC]

The new "IW" system affected my gameplay for about 3 matches. Just plays like everyone has ECM. Shoot legs or CT on everything. Primary difference is that my Timber Wolf plays like it did in the old days; I can face-tank the bjesus out of any IS mech, hands down no question. I feel like I'm clubbing baby squirrels. I barely have to torso-twist now. There are few real IS dakka builds that actually compete or matter without quirks so it's superior Clan lasers vs inferior IS lasers and both sides have some gauss.

The new hud stuff is nice though I guess.