22 replies to this topic

[Mazzyplz]

THE ISSUE: 8R GETS A -10 and -20% penalty for turn.
9m gets not such severe penalties.

ONLY COMPARING VARIANT TO VARIANT


the turn nerf for the 8r is completely uncalled for, it is just one more low blow for anyone who has ever played the honeybadger 8r with srms. and had fun with it (it's certainly not that great to begin with)

and now you have gone and nerf the turn on the 8r, why? if the 9m is more dangerous when staring you down with lasers - why did the 8r get the penalty? for what?

so you could better pigeonhole the variant into a LURMBOAT only situation?
come on!! give me a break here

i demand this be undone immediately, otherwise what is the point of making SRMS usable in this mech, why not just black them out completely in mechbay?

this doesn't look good, revert the 9m to -10 and 8r to -5 and you have a far better outcome for balance between the variants, but even then i wouldn't give the 8r a -5

Edited by Mazzyplz, 11 September 2015 - 03:09 PM.

[Grifthin]

Can you post a screenshot of it's current quirks on the pts ?

[Mazzyplz]

Edited by Mazzyplz, 11 September 2015 - 03:12 PM.

[SpiralFace]

still don't see the image.

[Mazzyplz]

fixed now

[1453 R]

So...a couple of torso twist negs and it's suddenly stuck as an LRM boat forever?

I seem to see very serious Infotech penalties to the 9M that really kick the hell out of it in close-range fights, if I'm reading the new quirk types right. Does that not register at all? o_O

[Mazzyplz]

so why do i freaking care about info tech when i am laser vomiting stuff into oblivion? as if pressing R was even much of a concern for my 9m variants

that's not really a NERF of any kind.
it is a fantasy

yeah giving it more negative quirks since they separated the launchers in the geo pass and they ruined hsr for SRMS means one more low blow among many for the 8r -. 9m won't be affected by not being able to use it's one streak/lrm hardpoint - trust me on that

Edited by Mazzyplz, 11 September 2015 - 03:16 PM.

[Mazzyplz]

again. very good for lurm boats; don't care about that when shooting SRMS, you want to force me to use one type of missile? this is a good way to do it.

this is bad for players, bad for choice, bad for the mech, bad for steam newcomers, bad overall - fix it

[1453 R]

*Sigh*

See...somehow, I knew people would discount Infotech completely as a balancing lever. "Why do I need targeting data?!"

Seriously? How often have we had "PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE HIT 'R'!!!!" threads in the main forums? Let's at least give it some proper time to soak in before we declare Infotech useless to everything, shall we?

[Mazzyplz]

so far you are giving me ONE choice: run it as a lrm boat.
that's not what i want; i want a choice to be able to run it with SRM.

what you have done is encourage one and downright penalize the other - FIX IT

it doesn't matter if pressing R helps dude - it's crap as balance when shooting direct fire when my alpha already destroys components in one or two shots

esp on the 9m. so no, it won't balance it.
me not pressing R is not going to alleviate my 57 alpha to the ct of my enemy

me not twisting then that WILL do it

fix it YESTERDAY

i can just tell you have never even played the honeybadger btw, the thing you need the first and foremost is your twist. - totally different than 9m or even 8r with lrms.
how are you supposed to use the arms as shield effectively, let alone LEAD your target with your torso twist when you give it such a nerf? this is madness.

needs to go

just on a variant by variant level this is not balance, this is unfavorable to the 8r

Edited by Mazzyplz, 11 September 2015 - 03:25 PM.

[1453 R]

Freaking hell, Mazzy - PLAY IT FOR TWENTY MINUTES before proclaiming doom and gloom! You're flipping tables and shrieking SRMs Unusable(!!!) because of one quirk on the 8R! How long did Victor pilots have to deal with 20% onuses to turn rate, torso twist rate, and arm movement rate?

This is a test; they're asking for feedback, yes. That is the intent of this. But trust me, mang - if your ranting is cheesing me off this bad, I guarantee it's going to irritate Piranha, too. Calm. Rational. Reasonable. present your case in a mild manner and it'll get looked at. Continue blowing your lid and this thread devolves into "Shut UUUP already, Mazzy!"

Anyways. Will endeavor to stay clear. And also to investigate the twenty other Sphere assault 'Mechs which can be expected to run SRM-heavy loadouts when I get home, so as to see whether this really is The Death of All Assault SRMs or not.

[Mazzyplz]

but it is simple, they claim they have made all the balance on a variant per variant basis - and instead of doing an actual effort with the 8r.

they have just decided that the targetting quirks will be useful for lrm. so why bother with thinking about the issue any further?

shooting the srm and shielding with this particular mech takes more torso twist than any other, even other awesomes. i know because i have seven awesomes in my mechbays; and i own three 8r - you have to twist in front of where they are going to lead with srm at close range. this means MORE twist is needed not less.

i concede my feedback could be better but this is not the first time the 8r has been relegated to afterthought like this, and the steam users will also feel cheated if they think they can use any weapons offered in the mechlab.

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so as to see whether this really is The Death of All Assault SRMs or not.

why would it be the death of all assault SRMS, i am talking about a specific variant of a specific assault, that is not well balanced against other variants of the same chassis.

does not apply.

0/10 attempt at hyperbole and strawman

Edited by Mazzyplz, 11 September 2015 - 04:32 PM.

[SpiralFace]

Another thing is that AWS's have a TON of both energy and missile variants.

The 8R might just end up being 1 variant that is more suited to LRM combat, another one of the what, 5 or 6 other variants might have quirks that are much more favorable for SRM usage.

Some of those mechs with about 6 or 7 variants have always struggled to find relevancy against other "me too" variants. Maybe another AWS variant is better suited for SRM play now.

At least its not like the previous weapon quirks that literally shoe horned you into certain build directions. At least this system seems like they are trying to get you through the core stats of the mech.

[Mazzyplz]

SpiralFace, on 11 September 2015 - 03:33 PM, said:

The 8R might just end up being 1 variant that is more suited to LRM combat, another one of the what, 5 or 6 other variants might have quirks that are much more favorable for SRM usage.

8r is the only variant with 4 missile hardpoints.
why would it HAVE to be better suited to lrm combat? there's nothing to make it so if not for these quirks.

the srm worked as fine on it as lrm in closed beta and even after. it was an unforgiving but good mech up until early this year then it has been through many things since the original quirks that didn't live up to the other variants, then the disastrous geo pass that seems to have spread out the launchers on it and the apparent removal of hsr for srms... all to culminate on this, more incentive not to take short range missile weapon systems at all.

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At least its not like the previous weapon quirks that literally shoe horned you into certain build directions. At least this system seems like they are trying to get you through the core stats of the mech.

to the contrary this is exactly what this is doing


if the mech is going to be balanced by its ability to fling lrm with locks TO THE DETRIMENT of srm usage, then why even tease the playerbase with such a weapon system in the mechlab? the solution is to black it out so no one can ever mount it on 8r. period

there is nothing to make this mech better at LRM other than hearsay, there is proof that it can be a good SRM mech.

Quote

But trust me, mang - if your ranting is cheesing me off this bad, I guarantee it's going to irritate Piranha, too. Calm. Rational. Reasonable. present your case in a mild manner and it'll get looked at. Continue blowing your lid and this thread devolves into "Shut UUUP already, Mazzy!"

this is only going this way because after i made my original feedback, you all came in here to play devil's advocate just out of knee-jerk because how dare i -. but it's true and it has to be looked at, and it's not the first time this same thing has been done and the honeybadger been shafted.

and this is precisely why i am so discouraged; i have been unable to drive my favorite mech in months and here i was thinking that this big balance patch would finally make my srm mech the most fun i will have with this game again, and i run into this. i have 2 honey badgers that i havent used in months.

so why would i shup up when the time to speak is now?
do you think i will miss the boat on this opportunity to have them fix something that to me is meaningful?



but to add to the points to why this is a bad idea more logically anyhow - the 9m is pinpoint damage, and the 8r is spread damage, so this is just ALL THE MORE reason it should have BETTER mobility NOT WORSE.
(AND THIS IS NOT EVEN GOING INTO THE TOPIC OF RANGES EITHER)
the range on 8r is always much more limited than 9m. this really shouldn't even be a topic of discussion honestly - any way you cut it, the mobility nerfs on the 8r are unwarranted

there was no reason to make the 8r artificially "better at lurms" - that's exactly the type of mindset these new quirks are supposed to be changing.

there is likewise no reason this mech should be slower than any of the other variants at all.
and its not like the mobility quirks are going to hurt streak or lrm users.

i run both lrm and srm, so how about a compromise, you can remove some of the targetting quirks for a better srm mech, this would be fair. right? i'd happily do that

the 8r turns like a dire wolf now, not even kidding. it's unmanageable to the extreme.

Edited by Mazzyplz, 11 September 2015 - 05:32 PM.

[Wildstreak]

I look at the image and see nothing that prevents 2LL/4SRM use on an 8R.

Heck, I remember when we had no quirks, 2LL/4SRM was just as usable as LRM boat and for some people better.

No problem here.

[Krivvan]

1453 R, on 11 September 2015 - 03:19 PM, said:

See...somehow, I knew people would discount Infotech completely as a balancing lever. "Why do I need targeting data?!"

Seriously? How often have we had "PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE HIT 'R'!!!!" threads in the main forums? Let's at least give it some proper time to soak in before we declare Infotech useless to everything, shall we?

Good players don't go on about "please please please hit R." The problem isn't that InfoTech does literally nothing. It's that it does not do nearly enough to make up for significant firepower differences. It also does not affect Direct Fire mechs much.

[Mazzyplz]

Wildstreak, on 12 September 2015 - 03:40 PM, said:

I look at the image and see nothing that prevents 2LL/4SRM use on an 8R.

Heck, I remember when we had no quirks, 2LL/4SRM was just as usable as LRM boat and for some people better.

No problem here.

you don't see it? then go play it. i have played it and i assure you it is not fine, it's a huge nerf to this variant. it feels like a stalker throwing srms and for that effect and with the armor this mech has you might as well not mount that.

it's like their simulation didn't even account for whether the torso twist would affect lock weapons like the streak or the lrm,
but obviously it does affect aim of the srm which doesn't lock itself.
and it's like their sim did not account for spread damage, or account for the lead you have to give targets
at close range which means a huge dependence on turning fast.

or accounted for the fact that you will be twisting most of the time because that's how this mech plays shielding with arms and slipping in punches, like a boxer; there is literally NO other way to play it and if you
lose the arm you lose the fight - because it's an awesome, it can barely survive long enough facing a banshee or battlemaster to kill it if all the shots are perfect.
where as the zeus or 9m etc.. just deliver pinpoint from mid range... really - this is not even close to balanced

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I remember when we had no quirks, 2LL/4SRM was just as usable as LRM boat

yeah but that is not what is happening right now, back then there was no quirks, now there is NEGATIVE quirks. catch the difference? it's a pretty marked difference, not subtle - so one would hope you'd see it



but that's really all beside the point;
i have gathered, collected myself a little bit.

i know pgi means well, i know you guys do. - but here's the bottom line

when you force me into the role of missile support; when you force players into a role, it stops feeling like fun and play.
it starts feeling like a chore, work, a job. and not to mention you eliminate a fun loadout that is not op, but challenging and fun and rewarding feast or famine. from existance; instead of just giving it a home next to the lurmboat loadout or at the very least you heavily penalize it for no good reason.
why does it feel like a job? because you cannot run what you want you HAVE to run it a certain way;
that's a key word you HAVE.. HAVING to do stuff is restrictive; you can see how this has negative connotations?

esp. when the 9m can do the same thing turning faster PINPOINT, and the 8V can do 3srm6 + buncha lasers which hits even harder, and they got no turning nerfs. so... if anything this mech needs more turning than the standard variant. a buff is in order to balance the 4 variants

otherwise the 8r is just "that lurmboat variant" you can't get creative with... and that sucks the fun right out

get rid of the sensor quirks in favor of turning, OR just remove all quirks if you need to do so. and let the modules work on their own - that could also work

like i said remember that the simulation cannot tell you if what you are doing will diminish or improve the satisfaction or stale ness of gameplay. i think it is important to have this in mind as well as just the spreadsheets, i humbly - humbly beg you all to consider this. that is my plea.

Edited by Mazzyplz, 14 September 2015 - 12:41 PM.

[Mazzyplz]

ok i just saw sean lang's video;

https://www.youtube....uTH20EUPo#t=772

this is just all the more worrying to me because it confirms definitely that you are thinking of sort of making this one variant the lurm one and that's it. - it is just confirming my fears and worries on this thread.

an irony that the atlas ddc got less of a penalty for an ECM slot than the aws 8r got penalties over nothing.. for having 4 missile hardpoints that nearly match the mad dog but not quite

i will ask you to reconsider; i just drove my honeybadger which isn't easy against the opponents i normally face in game, but it was still fun for the most part.
it is just as good as the lrm boat version - with srms. both loadouts can pull similar numbers. i ask you not to make this mech unable to shoot srms. there's no reason for it to be any more nerfed than the 9m or 8v at all

in fact i can prove that next to lrm SRMS and ERPPCS are a great choice for this mech:
proof-> no staring down of enemies. which the horrendous awesome CT cannot do.

and this is not the first time pgi has actually undermined this - because instead of ppc/erppc quirks for all awesomes they gave the 8r for example large laser quirks. as if you really wanted to stare enemies down with this geometry... the quirks to twisting were a welcome addition in contrast. please don't make the same mistake, make players use the good twist on this variant to compete with good twisting and spreading of the damage but that takes mobility. please dont take it away.

i'll try and make some videos with the SRMS until you guys finally make it impossible or "nerf it"
for no reason. i do hope you reconsider; but i will light a candle for this unsung build. until you make the variant completely stale stalker wannabe #12589123162189203624


[i really hope you dont just slim the awesome back or make up for its high dependence (energy loadout gets hot and missiles only work at certain ranges, therefore this mech is highly dependable not only on team but on its heatsinks and ammo) by buffing struct either; it needs to be able to run its stock loadout and that means sort of a glass canon, only change the geometry slightly, buff struct only a little bit - but make it twist good and shoot good (at least stock loadout equivalent). this will be balanced by only being able to move at 67.8kph which is not such an easy speed to manage for an 80 tonner with 80 tonner armor, even if it has good geometry; so dont patch stuff up with geometry please - give it it's proper movement range 1st- then quirk the structure only by a little ammount and finally tweak the geometry only ever so slightly, we all like the concept art it does not need to change much at all - you could shave off some width from each st and a bit off ct - actually what would be best is to give the sidetorsos structure quirks so that XL engines are more viable for missile boats and also srm boats, then quirks for turning would round it up]

Edited by Mazzyplz, 15 September 2015 - 10:06 PM.

[Praslek2]

Holy crap, I can't believe they would nerf the Awesome.

I mean, I love the Awesome, but it's a terrible mech.

And now we see a nerf?

What kind of person nerfs an Awesome? That's like picking on a disabled kid.

[Wildstreak]

Mazzyplz, on 13 September 2015 - 12:58 PM, said:

yeah but that is not what is happening right now, back then there was no quirks, now there is NEGATIVE quirks. catch the difference?

1 - Stop panicking.
2 - I told you I have played this.
3 - The 8R nerfs are VERY MINOR shown by your own picture above.
4 - Clearly some people got really spoiled with the quirks we have in Live.
5 - You are not thinking big picture, neither is Sean Lang.