431 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

Yokaiko, on 12 September 2015 - 08:43 AM, said:

A member of my unit got so fed up that he is banned from the forums forever, and he was one of not-so-secret-squirrels that was doing play testing.

He had erm ..........less than complimentary............things to say to Nerfinator, and said them flat out.

All black knights who fall in honorable battle against tyranny shall be forever remembered in the Hall of Bittervets™.

[SilentWolff]

I never thought I'd say this, but where is Microsoft when you need them.

Edited by SilentWolff, 12 September 2015 - 08:46 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Agent 0 Fortune, on 12 September 2015 - 08:37 AM, said:

The shift from weapons quirks to Mobility, Durability, and Intelligence quirks is the best move PGI could make. It is the only move they could make to support actual role warfare.
That being said, I'm not wasting time focusing on these numbers, they are just an initial pass. And just like before, the metawhores will drift to the cream of the crop, and then weep when those variants are brought back in line.

but...that would require people to be rational! That is the antithesis of butthurt!

Plus I love how with all the QQ no one seems to actually be dropping to give PGI the telemetry needed, but hey, why be part of the solution when one can just exacerbate the problem, right?

Ah well, we've both been here long enough to know how this song and dance goes on the forums.

[Deathlike]

Bishop Steiner, on 12 September 2015 - 08:52 AM, said:

but...that would require people to be rational! That is the antithesis of butthurt!

Plus I love how with all the QQ no one seems to actually be dropping to give PGI the telemetry needed, but hey, why be part of the solution when one can just exacerbate the problem, right?

Ah well, we've both been here long enough to know how this song and dance goes on the forums.

It's a lot more complex to write it up in just a post.

For instance, talking about weapon balance doesn't help bad mechs. The reverse is also true.

Putting that in a comprehensive post takes A LONG TIME. Even writing the kinds of posts about JUST ONE MECH is an hour or two undertaking, and not something you can put together on a whim (which I have, but it's obviously not going to be perfectly coherent or consistent on any level).

If you think putting a nice thought together (with facts and ancedotes/experience) in any form AND be thorough is going to be easy... good luck to you on that.

[AssaultPig]

It's like they don't remember the six months before quirks went in, when there were about six IS mechs that anybody bothered to drive. Weapon quirks were hamfisted and maybe some needed to be reduced, but at least they made a lot of previously deprecated mechs useful for something again.

If this goes live in anything close to its current form we'll be right back to timberwolfs and storm crows ruling everything again (to whatever extent they don't now, anyway.)

[Yokaiko]

Bishop Steiner, on 12 September 2015 - 08:52 AM, said:

but...that would require people to be rational! That is the antithesis of butthurt!

Plus I love how with all the QQ no one seems to actually be dropping to give PGI the telemetry needed, but hey, why be part of the solution when one can just exacerbate the problem, right?

Ah well, we've both been here long enough to know how this song and dance goes on the forums.

I spent about 4 hours searching today (mid-afternoon Ocianic) and said the hell with it and started dropping on live.

....so I can lose camp-out after camp-out convincingly.

[oldradagast]

Bishop Steiner, on 12 September 2015 - 08:52 AM, said:

but...that would require people to be rational! That is the antithesis of butthurt!

Plus I love how with all the QQ no one seems to actually be dropping to give PGI the telemetry needed, but hey, why be part of the solution when one can just exacerbate the problem, right?

Ah well, we've both been here long enough to know how this song and dance goes on the forums.

There's nothing to write about. Any group that thinks that the Timberwolf and Direwolf needs buffs, while the Atlas DDC needs to be a wimp, the Atlas-D needs tons of structure so it can wander around weaponless for hours, the Enforcer needs to be unable to twist at any speed, etc... is beyond reason. There's no point in explaining things in detail to people like that; it would be like writing up a 5-page thesis on why sticking your hand into a fire is a bad idea and then giving it somebody who's repeatedly burned himself that way a dozen times.

Somebody else asked where is Microsoft when you need them... a very good question. It is really is time, IMHO, that somebody higher up step in and fix this madness.

If the drek on the test server goes live and is not hot-patched out in a day or so, this game is going down... while the rest of us will be relaxing, disappointed and bitter, on an island.

Edited by oldradagast, 12 September 2015 - 09:03 AM.

[Deathpactt]

Agent 0 Fortune, on 12 September 2015 - 08:37 AM, said:

The shift from weapons quirks to Mobility, Durability, and Intelligence quirks is the best move PGI could make. It is the only move they could make to support actual role warfare.
That being said, I'm not wasting time focusing on these numbers, they are just an initial pass. And just like before, the metawhores will drift to the cream of the crop, and then weep when those variants are brought back in line.

Agreed but I feel like PGI should have fixed the clan vs IS tech first. Dunno by moving the timeline for new weapons.

[Yokaiko]

oldradagast, on 12 September 2015 - 09:03 AM, said:

There's nothing to write about. Any group that thinks that the Timberwolf and Direwolf needs buffs, while the Atlas DDC needs to be a wimp, the Atlas-D needs tons of structure so it can wander around weaponless for hours, the Enforcer needs to be unable to twist at any speed, etc... is beyond reason. There's no point in explaining things in detail to people like that; it would be like writing up a 5-page thesis on why sticking your hand into a fire is a bad idea and then giving it somebody who's repeatedly burned himself that way a dozen times.

On the info war side, all of the short range brawlers that get +200/300% short range scan time. The Phract -3D STILL getting the shaft, even in comparison to the -0XP.....that has a godbox

There is seriously no defending this mess.

Edited by Yokaiko, 12 September 2015 - 09:07 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Deathlike, on 12 September 2015 - 08:58 AM, said:

It's a lot more complex to write it up in just a post.

For instance, talking about weapon balance doesn't help bad mechs. The reverse is also true.

Putting that in a comprehensive post takes A LONG TIME. Even writing the kinds of posts about JUST ONE MECH is an hour or two undertaking, and not something you can put together on a whim (which I have, but it's obviously not going to be perfectly coherent or consistent on any level).

If you think putting a nice thought together (with facts and ancedotes/experience) in any form AND be thorough is going to be easy... good luck to you on that.

Hmmm, IDK,have ya actually tried it? I have. When you actually are on to something, I find they tend to almost write themselves.

Regardless, one certainly can't expect anyone to take this forum drivel seriously, can one?

[oldradagast]

Bishop Steiner, on 12 September 2015 - 09:06 AM, said:

Hmmm, IDK,have ya actually tried it? I have. When you actually are on to something, I find they tend to almost write themselves.

Regardless, one certainly can't expect anyone to take this forum drivel seriously, can one?

Facts are not drivel, even if you don't like them or are blindly convinced that PGI can do no wrong or "this time" they are actually going to deliver on what they promised.

Explain to anyone here how the Timberwolf and Direwolf need a buff, how IS mechs need nerfs, and how random quirks that look like they were rolled for on a table written by a madmen makes the game better, and see what type of response you get.

Amazing what drivel people will post to defend PGI's idiocy.

[Bishop Steiner]

oldradagast, on 12 September 2015 - 09:10 AM, said:

Facts are not drivel, even if you don't like them or are blindly convinced that PGI can do no wrong or "this time" they are actually going to deliver on what they promised.

Explain to anyone here how the Timberwolf and Direwolf need a buff, how IS mechs need nerfs, and how random quirks that look like they were rolled for on a table written by a madmen makes the game better, and see what type of response you get.

Amazing what drivel people will post to defend PGI's idiocy.

almost as amazing as the way some folks look for any reason to cry and complain, without remotely having the facts.

Also, for your "witty" Signature line? one word: Atlantis.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 12 September 2015 - 09:13 AM.

[Juodas Varnas]

Bishop Steiner, on 12 September 2015 - 09:13 AM, said:

Also, for your "witty" Signature line? one word: Atlantis.

Was Atlantis even real?

I always thought it's just a myth

Edited by Juodas Varnas, 12 September 2015 - 09:14 AM.

[Yokaiko]

Bishop Steiner, on 12 September 2015 - 09:13 AM, said:

almost as amazing as the way some folks look for any reason to cry and complain, without remotely having the facts.

Also, for your "witty" Signature line? one word: Atlantis.

I did mange to get about 4 games in, the state of the PTS is quite literally the Clan invasion.

All over again.

Edited by Yokaiko, 12 September 2015 - 09:14 AM.

[Deathlike]

Bishop Steiner, on 12 September 2015 - 09:06 AM, said:

Hmmm, IDK,have ya actually tried it? I have. When you actually are on to something, I find they tend to almost write themselves.

Regardless, one certainly can't expect anyone to take this forum drivel seriously, can one?

I do write them, and yet it's painful to do when noone @ PGI reads them (at least as far as I can tell, but it's hard to verify eitherway).

The thing is, you can only repeat yourself so many times, to the point where one is resigned to "this is what we're getting, and it won't change"... even if it is an unpopular opinion.

Like most things that have been regarded as "features" in this game (like the skill tree and pinpoint), it is tough to argue a position that everyone agrees needs to be addressed, but not get even a mention by those in charge.

It takes literally a year or so after UI 2.0 until things actually got dealt with. With everything that happens here, "a year" to get another response is a more likely scenario based on track record.

[oldradagast]

Bishop Steiner, on 12 September 2015 - 09:13 AM, said:

almost as amazing as the way some folks look for any reason to cry and complain, without remotely having the facts.

Also, for your "witty" Signature line? one word: Atlantis.

We have the facts - the proposed ideas are idiotic and completely wreck the game. It doesn't matter if PGI releases exactly these changes to the final product or not the simple fact that they wasted heaven only knows how much time creating this trainwreck AND then thought it needed to be "tested for balance" proves they are clueless.

Would you go to a doctor that recommended pulling a half dozen of your teeth because you broke your leg? Even if he didn't pull the teeth (put the crap on the test server into the public game), would you consider him competent and a good source of medical treatment? Of course not, and its the same idea here.

Glad you like the signature. Oh, and Atlantis isn't real, but neither is the balance in this game or the understanding of anyone who's still defending PGI at this point.

[Ultimax]

Bishop Steiner, on 12 September 2015 - 08:52 AM, said:

Plus I love how with all the QQ no one seems to actually be dropping to give PGI the telemetry needed, but hey, why be part of the solution when one can just exacerbate the problem, right?

They have been given mountains of feedback for years on specific chassis, on what those chassis have issues with and they have done little to nothing to address any of that.

This entire balance pass on the PTS is basically them, shoehorning "InfoTech" onto everything with nothing that really address all of the other things that were supposedly taken into consideration like mech hitboxes, number of weapon hardpoints, location of weapon hardpoints.

Here is the most critical point of feedback that has been given and it has been given repeatedly since the PTS info was revealed:



The balance numbers are all based on a flawed premise that massively overvalues "InfoTech" and Structure quirks by assigning them equal values against Mobility and Firepower.


You don't need targeting information to play this game, or to kill mechs.The glut of ECM in the game already demonstrates this.

What you need to kill mechs is having more firepower than the other guy, supported by having enough mobility to bring that firepower to bear.



So there isn't any simple "Give X mech more Info abilities" to address - the entire premise is fundamentally flawed.




Then there is the other elephant in the room, just how are we supposed to test these changes in live play when IS mechs have lost all of the firepower quirks they needed to compete with the massively superior Clan Firepower?

Yes, they said they will address faction imbalance "after" this, but when?

Faction balance is still not good right now on the live servers, so how is bombing IS firepower quirks back to the stone age actually going to help this?



Then, lastly, there are so many examples of them simply getting things massively wrong.

Commandos with agility nerfs, Mist Lynx B that needs omni-pods to overcome CT negative quirks and has negative torso yaw quirks even with pods.

Atlas with diminished short range info gathering (it's only area of use as a mech).

There are many, many more examples - but writing posts about all of them is a herculean undertaking because they managed to get so much of it wrong.

These are things that shouldn't even require feedback, they should already understand this stuff - because it is their actual job to understand this, to research it, to mine data for it, to gather and use previous feedback on it.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 12 September 2015 - 09:22 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Yokaiko, on 12 September 2015 - 09:14 AM, said:

I did mange to get about 4 games in, the state of the PTS is quite literally the Clan invasion.

All over again.

Cool. You do realize that's part of the point? It's not to win matches, it's to gather data, actual IN GAME test date to compare. The more data, especially on the BAds, the better.

The Community always cries they want to be in on balance decisions, yet what happens whenever you invite the public in, is they simply gravitate to whatever is easiest, and play it like they are playing the game for rewards, etc. So Bad mechs are simply ignored, etc, and no useful data is gathered.

Yet when they invite small groups of squirrels in to actually test, the Community as a whole cries.

Mind you, playing it on an even t weekend? Kinda ludicrous..... won't deny that.

[Astrocanis]

Bishop Steiner, on 12 September 2015 - 09:18 AM, said:

Cool. You do realize that's part of the point? It's not to win matches, it's to gather data, actual IN GAME test date to compare. The more data, especially on the BAds, the better.

The Community always cries they want to be in on balance decisions, yet what happens whenever you invite the public in, is they simply gravitate to whatever is easiest, and play it like they are playing the game for rewards, etc. So Bad mechs are simply ignored, etc, and no useful data is gathered.

Yet when they invite small groups of squirrels in to actually test, the Community as a whole cries.

Mind you, playing it on an even t weekend? Kinda ludicrous..... won't deny that.

Telemetry? You mean "trial and error"?

The quirks they have rolled out make several assumptions. Some of those assumptions are that the Timberwolf and Direwolf were underquirked - although they at least had the intellect to reduce the Timberwolf's agility. But adding MORE agility to the biggest alpha in the game while shaving agility from lights? Absolutely brilliant. Information warfare apparently means "Make it more difficult to gather information in the age of ECM." Again, absolutely brilliant. Why not make "Information warfare" mean "no sensors in the game?"

Most of the quirks don't require telemetry. They require head scratching. Making the DDC a papier mache doll doesn't sound like a great idea, does it? Does it require lots of playtesting to validate that taking a pretty weak 100 ton mech and making it even weaker than it was is a "good" thing? Making short range targeting slower on TANKS doesn't make all that much sense, does it?

I agree with them that TTK needed to be reduced. I'm not sure making IS mechs barely mobile rocks is a very good idea. Telemetry indeed.

[Yokaiko]

Bishop Steiner, on 12 September 2015 - 09:18 AM, said:

Cool. You do realize that's part of the point? It's not to win matches, it's to gather data, actual IN GAME test date to compare. The more data, especially on the BAds, the better.

Yeah, except in the complete and utter absence of anything remotely resembling a control there are so many things in play that you would need a team with a lot of time to interpret what you are seeing.

....and they are likely going live with it on October 6th.