154 replies to this topic

[TexAce]

I hate this community so much.

We are finally on a road path to get role warfare and all the majority does is screem "BOUUU MAAA WEAPPONNNS"

so stupid....

just so stupid....

[Kilo 40]

I think what's going ot have to happen is clan tech and IS tech will have to be interchangeable. with the trade off being heat. lighter weight and longer range with clan weapons for your IS mech, but more heat. want less heat? back to shorter ranger but cooler IS weapons. same with clan mechs. want to mega boat lasers again? go for IS lasers. less range but much cooler.

it's not ideal, but everyone having access to everything is the only real way to keep the majority of people happy. I don;t see how IS/Clan weapons can be balanced any other way so long as they are kept as IS weapons for IS mechs only.

[XX Sulla XX]

TexAce, on 14 September 2015 - 01:24 AM, said:

I hate this community so much.

We are finally on a road path to get role warfare and all the majority does is screem "BOUUU MAAA WEAPPONNNS"

so stupid....

just so stupid....

Funny because I have been clear in everything I posted that over all the most of the changes can probably be made to work. BUT for them to work you need to balance weapons.

[Galenit]

TexAce, on 14 September 2015 - 01:24 AM, said:

I hate this community so much.

We are finally on a road path to get role warfare and all the majority does is screem "BOUUU MAAA WEAPPONNNS"

I didnt said anything about weapons.

But the last part of the quote matches what i said:

Testing new sensors without changing ecm is

TexAce, on 14 September 2015 - 01:24 AM, said:

so stupid....

just so stupid....

Because the magic jesus box hardcounters all sensors at all ranges and we have a lot of ecm in the matches.

[XX Sulla XX]

Kilo 40, on 14 September 2015 - 01:25 AM, said:

I think what's going ot have to happen is clan tech and IS tech will have to be interchangeable. with the trade off being heat. lighter weight and longer range with clan weapons for your IS mech, but more heat. want less heat? back to shorter ranger but cooler IS weapons. same with clan mechs. want to mega boat lasers again? go for IS lasers. less range but much cooler.

it's not ideal, but everyone having access to everything is the only real way to keep the majority of people happy. I don;t see how IS/Clan weapons can be balanced any other way so long as they are kept as IS weapons for IS mechs only.

Its interesting if you look at short range brawling IS and Clan is not that far apart. If you look at mid range play Clans are clear winners minus a few super quirked IS mechs. And balance does not have to be where IS and Clan mid range is exactly the same. But it needs to be close enough.

[Appogee]

MauttyKoray, on 14 September 2015 - 01:06 AM, said:

Would an Atlas with 2x structure change your mind on that? Thats a lot of damage to soak up with an Atlas... Supposedly one of them had it on the PTS, and it make me giddy.

One Atlas? No. That's about as much of a solution as a single Dragon 1N with AC5 refire rate quirks was, or a STK-5N with LL quirks.

One of the alleged goals of this rebalancing is to avoid having to make single IS Mechs competitive above all others. Ie. to make Mechs more consistently competitive across the board.

Edited by Appogee, 14 September 2015 - 02:00 AM.

[GoatHILL]

No mech should get negative quirks it may not need to get bonuses over its stock numbers but there should be no negative quirks.

IS assaults and heavies with movement penalties? Other than the DWF what IS mechs have better movement than Clan mechs of the same weight?

No current map is big enough to force lights to be scouts or needed with, all the ECM in game now most players are used to not getting target info.

The new senor classes + ECM = LRMs are dead.

Quirks were/are needed to help make weak mechs more playable. These new quirks seems to be trying to make all mechs equally bad with a hand full see (AS7-D) as the new meta.

I had high hopes for this new system but its is way too complicated in an already complicated game.

Leave sensors alone, no negatives quirks movement or otherwise, more generic weapons quirks, finally make ECM true guardian instead of the crap we have now.

[sycocys]

Sean Lang, on 13 September 2015 - 10:26 PM, said:

I get what your saying, but as I pointed out in the video. I think it is important to fix some of the foundations of the issues we see with balance (skill tree values being tuned down is also coming on PTS soon).

So I'd say I don't think introducing new weapons systems is the answer, but if this is done and done correctly, introducing them will be a lot easier (balance wise) in the near future if PGI chooses.

Instead of driving 80-90% of the mechs right into the ground with nerfs based on the skill tree - why don't you just remove the skill tree which mostly is just a system that is unfavorable for new players and really doesn't add any substance to the game anyhow?

Then you can build a more useful and interesting skill tree down the road again, something that might be based on chassis or variant and could be actually different from player to player.

^ And there's a way to add in your silly quirk system in a more meaninful way while not destroying player's options for making different mech builds/roles.

Edited by sycocys, 14 September 2015 - 02:18 AM.

[JC Daxion]

I really like what he was talking about, and i do think this has a lotta potential. I love the idea of quirks to make mechs tankier, and added info warfare. This is my main concern.


Weapon quirks. The one quirk they need to dump all together is velocity, and burn times. to me they make weapons play to different for the exact same thing. Heat is one thing, Recharge is another. Once your hot you are waiting anyway, and before that it will just make you get hot faster, but how you use the weapons is not really changed.

But when you change velocity, you are screwing with timing from mech to mech. You could need 5 different lead times at the same range for the same weapon on 5 different mechs. Burn time is sorta the same.. One mech you can turn much sooner, it just makes the weapons play do different and that much harder to balance.

[timaeus]

Out of curiosity Sulla, what year are you wanting to advance the game to so we can have these weapons? 3058? 3060? Or are you just wanting to pick these two systems to add in?

[LordKnightFandragon]

Warhawk, -1 target retention time...with those advanced optics....that was funny.

[L3mming2]

XX Sulla XX, on 14 September 2015 - 01:51 AM, said:

Its interesting if you look at short range brawling IS and Clan is not that far apart. If you look at mid range play Clans are clear winners minus a few super quirked IS mechs. And balance does not have to be where IS and Clan mid range is exactly the same. But it needs to be close enough.

not realy IMO this rips thru every thing IS has got to offer (even more so if u look at it ton for ton)
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...aa279af306da900

[Ultimax]

Sean Lang, on 13 September 2015 - 10:26 PM, said:

I get what your saying, but as I pointed out in the video. I think it is important to fix some of the foundations of the issues we see with balance (skill tree values being tuned down is also coming on PTS soon).

So I'd say I don't think introducing new weapons systems is the answer, but if this is done and done correctly, introducing them will be a lot easier (balance wise) in the near future if PGI chooses.

These are the largest offending balance items in the game right now:


1) Faction imbalance, specifically range & damage superiority of clan weapons - now no longer addressed through IS quirks.
2) Faction imbalance, specifically Clan XL superiority and crit slot savings
3) Chassis imbalance primarily through number of hardpoints, type & location as well as hitbox & model design.



I don't see any of that addressed in the mish mash of numbers on the PTS.

What I see are a lot of bizarre nerfs to mechs that aren't very good in the first place. It's mind boggling.




Lastly, InfoTech is interesting. It's a thing that can have some value - but it's weight in the system for balance is massively over estimated, just as +structure "tanky" quirks are massively over estimated. At best InfoTech should be "10%" of the value in the design, most certainly not 25%.

Firepower & Mobility are the most important things in this game, they are what kills other mechs and what keeps you alive.

"Tankyness" through +structure alone is phony. It's not real survivability, mobility and agility do more to keep a mech alive in this game than +24 or even +50 extra CT structure ever will.

[Johnny Z]

L3mming2, on 14 September 2015 - 03:57 AM, said:

not realy IMO this rips thru every thing IS has got to offer (even more so if u look at it ton for ton)
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...aa279af306da900

The problem is Clan pilots are bad and have no idea how OP omni mechs are. Clan pilots should not be allowed to comment on balance lol.

Like literally put all Clan pilots that think the techs are balanced on temorary forum ban until this rebalance is done.

[Johnny Z]

Ultimatum X, on 14 September 2015 - 04:12 AM, said:

These are the largest offending balance items in the game right now:


1) Faction imbalance, specifically range & damage superiority of clan weapons - now no longer addressed through IS quirks.
2) Faction imbalance, specifically Clan XL superiority and crit slot savings
3) Chassis imbalance primarily through number of hardpoints, type & location as well as hitbox & model design.



I don't see any of that addressed in the mish mash of numbers on the PTS.

What I see are a lot of bizarre nerfs to mechs that aren't very good in the first place. It's mind boggling.




Lastly, InfoTech is interesting. It's a thing that can have some value - but it's weight in the system for balance is massively over estimated, just as +structure "tanky" quirks are massively over estimated. At best InfoTech should be "10%" of the value in the design, most certainly not 25%.

Firepower & Mobility are the most important things in this game, they are what kills other mechs and what keeps you alive.

"Tankyness" through +structure alone is phony. It's not real survivability, mobility and agility do more to keep a mech alive in this game than +24 or even +50 extra CT structure ever will.

Exactly, mobility among the other bonuses like avoiding damage and escaping damage, huge advantage in tactics, mobility allows the advantage to be used to determine range and stay there. An atlas for instance may be good close up, but he will never get there against a mobile opponent.

And if he does get there and meets nearly any clan mech packing CSPL or CSL or srms hes toast anywayas it is in game at the moment.

Edited by Johnny Z, 14 September 2015 - 04:21 AM.

[Yokaiko]

Whatever, I manged to get myself killed getting pretty damn close in some pretty slow mechs at LEAST 50% of the time.

Here is a hint, there are no running battles for the most part, you know where things are going to happen, at least when pugging.

[Sabazial]

Johnny Z, on 14 September 2015 - 04:14 AM, said:

The problem is Clan pilots are bad and have no idea how OP omni mechs are. Clan pilots should not be allowed to comment on balance lol.

Not like all us closed beta pilots had to run IS mechs for 2+ years before clan tech came along right?

[Yokaiko]

Belphegore, on 14 September 2015 - 04:33 AM, said:

Not like all us closed beta pilots had to run IS mechs for 2+ years before clan tech came along right?

I love when I'm told "how good I have it"

[Johnny Z]

Belphegore, on 14 September 2015 - 04:33 AM, said:

Not like all us closed beta pilots had to run IS mechs for 2+ years before clan tech came along right?

I wasnt being serious and that wasnt a great comment I made, but the balance arguements of clan vrs inner sphere are getting a little old all things considered.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Ultimatum X, on 14 September 2015 - 04:12 AM, said:

1) Faction imbalance, specifically range & damage superiority of clan weapons - now no longer addressed through IS quirks.
2) Faction imbalance, specifically Clan XL superiority and crit slot savings

This should of been the FIRST thing done with the PTS, not really sure why mech specific quirks were done first because the meta could shift the usefulness of a mech harder than armor quirks can, especially considering not all hardpoints are equal.



What I would love to see:

• Tech balance be the first thing tested or at least brought in ASAP.
  
• Weapon quirks brought back, minor ones are ok and they should be mixed in with current ones so you don't have absurd armor/structure quirks placed on every bad mech (ie, we shouldn't replace absurd offensive quirks with absurd defensive ones).
  
• Like you say, sensors quirks should not be weighted as heavily as they are, they simply aren't as important as being able to contribute to dishing out or receiving damage.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 14 September 2015 - 01:46 PM.