209 replies to this topic

[Iqfish]

I also posted this into the (very active) german subforum. Lets see what those guys think about it.

http://mwomercs.com/...n-machen-wurde/

[Impyrium]

This could actually fix so many problems and add just the right amount of gameplay depth it's not even funny.

My only concern would be HSR... being an Aussie player that tends to factor in pretty heavily for me. Even if I don't have convergence I don't want my weapons to not function at all until I lock on.

But other than that. Damn. PGI, if you can do it, get on it. I promise I'll buy lots of shiny 'mech packs!

[oldradagast]

wanderer, on 14 September 2015 - 10:39 AM, said:

Convergence focuses on a point at maximum range unless pointing at a locked target in LOS.

Information becomes ammunition (or rather, a lack of wasting it.).

Eh... a step in the right direction, though I feel it is too binary. In short, guy with the best super-sensors easily blows holes in the guy who's weapons are still flailing around, unable to converge.

How about just a narrowing cone of fire based on sensor ability, if you're locked on or not, etc. Maybe somebody already suggested that, but one really wants to avoid binary "you can win, or you can't" situations. That's part of the problem with ECM currently, for example.

Mystere, on 14 September 2015 - 03:22 PM, said:

I'm more inclined to make ECM disable IFF.

Making ECM into the greatest troll weapon ever. No idea why anyone wants to bring back the HUD bug... unless they think being shot by friendlies is fun. But this questionable idea isn't really related to the original suggestion, so I'll just snicker and move on...

[EmperorMyrf]

I like the idea, but it'd have to have some extra rules on when your weapons converge. There needs to be a cone for each reticle, and the target has to be both in a cone and locked on for weapons tied to the appropriate reticle to converge. Trying to imagine all cases:

• No Target is locked - No weapons converge
  
• A Target is locked and
  
  • Target does not lie in any cone - No weapons converge
    
  • Target lies within Torso Reticle cone, but not the Arm Reticle cone - Only Torso weapons converge
    
  • Target lies within Arm Reticle cone, but not the Torso Reticle cone - Only Arm weapons converge
    
  • Target lies within both Torso and Arm Reticle cones - All weapons converge

Can't think of any others. I'll do the math on what that angle should be in a bit, it should be just outside the maximum lead angle (which needs to be calculated).

EDIT: did the math, maximum angles from vector of reticle to vector to target should be:

• If we want to be able to lead with converging SRMS, 10 degrees
  
• If we don't want to be able to lead with converging SRMS, 5 degrees

Edited by EmperorMyrf, 14 September 2015 - 05:22 PM.

[Mystere]

Almost right on cue.

oldradagast, on 14 September 2015 - 04:29 PM, said:

Making ECM into the greatest troll weapon ever. No idea why anyone wants to bring back the HUD bug... unless they think being shot by friendlies is fun. But this questionable idea isn't really related to the original suggestion, so I'll just snicker and move on...

It forces people to be very careful with their shots, instead of just going AlphaTardWarriorOnline all the time every time whenever they see a Mech that does not have a blue dorito on. You're going to need communication, situational awareness, and presence of mind to make sure you know who you are shooting.

oldradagast, on 14 September 2015 - 04:29 PM, said:

Eh... a step in the right direction, though I feel it is too binary. In short, guy with the best super-sensors easily blows holes in the guy who's weapons are still flailing around, unable to converge.

The expectation is that the sensor-heavy Mech is lighter on the firepower side.

Edited by Mystere, 14 September 2015 - 04:49 PM.

[Mystere]

wanderer, on 14 September 2015 - 04:02 PM, said:

What adding time-to-lock does is means that the ECM-protected target has a window of safety from a lock-on convergence shot every time he pops out from cover, one he can reset simply by getting back into cover again. Even 3 extra seconds is enough to poke, fire, and retreat before the enemy sensors would be able to legitimately lock-on...whereupon terrain would break the lock for them. Rinse and repeat.

My first (and hopefully only) concern is that the game might devolve into peek and poke. I am seeing a lot of that at the moment and would rather not see even more.

[Big Tin Man]

oldradagast, on 14 September 2015 - 04:29 PM, said:

Eh... a step in the right direction, though I feel it is too binary. In short, guy with the best super-sensors easily blows holes in the guy who's weapons are still flailing around, unable to converge.

How about just a narrowing cone of fire based on sensor ability, if you're locked on or not, etc. Maybe somebody already suggested that, but one really wants to avoid binary "you can win, or you can't" situations. That's part of the problem with ECM currently, for example.

I thought it was determined that dynamic convergence (what you're describing) doesn't work with MWO's coding and HSR. Not sure of the source, maybe closed beta? Also, keep in mind it would require a team effort, as the mechs with super-sensors aren't the high alpha assault death machines, they're the lights and mediums.

That and the whole convergence thing only truly hurts symmetrical builds. It's not the end of all things.

[Shevy]

+1 For this suggestion

Working with a LL Stalker as an example all lasers would converge at 900m (max range without Quirks or modules)
unless you have targeted an enemy mech

when a mech at 405m is targeted all lasers would converge at 405m

so if targeting the wrong mech say a light hiding behind another mech the lasers will still converge on the targeted mech and the one in front will take a laser shower
sounds like fun

it also avoids having convergence speed as a server issue as the current code sounds like it just needs a range stop set at the current targeted mech range

[Hans Von Lohman]

You could go further and have Targeting Computers bring back the current/classic gun range based convergence, aka the system we have now.

That, and TC's will let you lock on faster, which means you get convergence anyways. You just don't have to wait for it in quick, pot-shot situations.

Edited by Hans Von Lohman, 14 September 2015 - 05:04 PM.

[Deathlike]

Hans Von Lohman, on 14 September 2015 - 02:55 PM, said:

Isn't that a good thing though? I mean the entire idea here is to promote getting lock-ons even in situations you don't need one right now.

I'm not talking about the feature itself.. I'm talking about the interaction of the netcode with the concept.

It has hit detection issues with SRMs... making sure perfect convergence happens when you use the "rewound data" (because you'd have to guarantee the targeting) would cause hits that should happen not happen.

Remember that HSR still fails to work vs overheated shutdown targets reliably as it doesn't just affect Lights... but it does affect Assaults just as well (though it helps Lights more for obvious reasons, but people forget it affects Assaults).

Quote

If HSR becomes a problem when trying to hit the enemy without a lock-on, wouldn't that make people really, really want that lock on really, really badly?

It's actually worse, considering ECM. Indirectly, ECM becomes "an armor buff" since you'd have to disable ECM to get a lock...

Quote

If you want a lock on badly, then good and fast lock-ons provided by the new information warfare superiority is also something you want really badly as well.

It's a little more complex than that.

Instead, it would focus on more of a UAV-meta... as when you are about to engage the enemy... you'll have to actually commit spending 40k C-bills just to make sure you can target them (especially in conjunction with whatever PGI's meh "info warfare"). That is not something that should be mandatory, but might actually have to be.

Quote

Or is my logic flawed here?

The issue is more of an interaction chain, as you'd have to vet the netcode even more.


It doesn't make "scouting mechs" viable though, since it's still about killing things.

[Mystere]

Deathlike, on 14 September 2015 - 06:13 PM, said:

Instead, it would focus on more of a UAV-meta... as when you are about to engage the enemy... you'll have to actually commit spending 40k C-bills just to make sure you can target them (especially in conjunction with whatever PGI's meh "info warfare"). That is not something that should be mandatory, but might actually have to be.

Alternatively, send a scout behind enemy lines. Better yet, do that and have him launch a UAV.

[Deathlike]

Mystere, on 14 September 2015 - 06:23 PM, said:

Alternatively, send a scout behind enemy lines. Better yet, do that and have him launch a UAV.

That doesn't solve much. The better you are... the more likely the UAV will go down quickly. Often times a Light would try to squirrel and sneak in a UAV. Removing the UAV is easy enough and you're mostly back to square one.

Often times in higher level play, the UAV is used to spot where the enemy is, but it's briefly long enough for just that. The UAV then serves no purpose unless people don't actually notice it.

Edited by Deathlike, 14 September 2015 - 06:39 PM.

[wanderer]

Anyone00, on 14 September 2015 - 04:18 PM, said:

I don't mean as a hard mechanic: I mean you can tell where the other lasers are going because they'll hit anything the TAG beam will hit due to being mounted so close together.

True, though even then divergence will happen.

[Mystere]

Deathlike, on 14 September 2015 - 06:39 PM, said:

That doesn't solve much. The better you are... the more likely the UAV will go down quickly. Often times a Light would try to squirrel and sneak in a UAV. Removing the UAV is easy enough and you're mostly back to square one.

Often times in higher level play, the UAV is used to spot where the enemy is, but it's briefly long enough for just that. The UAV then serves no purpose unless people don't actually notice it.

The UAV is meant to be a distraction. The scout is the one doing the actual work.

[Eboli]

I think this idea has a lot of merit.

• It brings a few more modules into play which have sort of become useless since radar deprivation and seismic entered the scene.
  
• It allows a greater variety (and importance) of quirks to be thought about - sensor range, longer target holds after not looking at target
  
• Provides the potential (if implemented properly) for lights to get a greater chance to earn XP and CBills by actually playing scouting roles
  
• Light mechs could have skill tree options to improve their scouting capabilities
  
• The ability of a team to take out enemy lights is likely to be more important - for light players = risk for reward
  
• UAV becomes more important - maybe even more rewarding
  
• If TAG becomes more useful then likely there will be one less energy points put to damage potential

One aspect I could see are players with the mentality of I am not peeking but the rest of my team should do the work for me. Just like those players who hold back for kill stealing. An unavoidable behaviour though.


Peek and poke mentality may get worse. European players would love it

[Edit - typo]

Cheers!
Eboli

Edited by Eboli, 14 September 2015 - 07:40 PM.

[xe N on]

/support

very good idea

[BumbleBee]

I remember reading a similar suggestion some time ago (possibly years). It was well received, but we never got it.

This would require an ECM rework as well, which is a good thing.

My interpretation;

Untargeted Mech = Weapons converge at max sensor range.
Targeted Mech = Weapons converge at Targeted Mechs range.

ECM = Longer time for dorito to appear + loss of Artemis grouping bonus ONLY. NO masking of Mechs.
Angel ECM = ECM + 90m radius.

TAG cuts through ECM + 50% faster missile lock time.

Angel ECM would be a new type of ECM (uses same mounting point) but is heavier and bulkier as a tradeoff for being able to protect other Mechs. I don't know what the weight and size is in tabletop, but use those values.

Maybe add in convergence time delay once target is locked, but never longer than 1 second, maybe to 1.5 if target is protected by ECM.

Edited by BumbleBee, 14 September 2015 - 08:39 PM.

[Hans Von Lohman]

BumbleBee, on 14 September 2015 - 08:35 PM, said:

I remember reading a similar suggestion some time ago (possibly years). It was well received, but we never got it.

This would require an ECM rework as well, which is a good thing.

My interpretation;

Untargeted Mech = Weapons converge at max sensor range.
Targeted Mech = Weapons converge at Targeted Mechs range.

ECM = Longer time for dorito to appear + loss of Artemis grouping bonus ONLY. NO masking of Mechs.
Angel ECM = ECM + 90m radius.

TAG cuts through ECM + 50% faster missile lock time.

Angel ECM would be a new type of ECM (uses same mounting point) but is heavier and bulkier as a tradeoff for being able to protect other Mechs. I don't know what the weight and size is in tabletop, but use those values.

Maybe add in convergence time delay once target is locked, but never longer than 1 second, maybe to 1.5 if target is protected by ECM.

All of this, with a bit more

Targeting Computers = current bonuses + current convergence. It is based on your reticle range. No target needed for convergence, just point and shoot to pinpoint somebody.

Elite Pilot Skill "Pinpoint" = a user defined convergence instead of infinity, set in the mechlab's weapon group menu.

[Paeyvn]

I suggested essentially this on the OutreachHPG subreddit yesterday. Instead of typing up my thoughts again I'm just going to paste my entry there, but in short I agree with you.

------

So, I've been following everything that's been going on so far with the PTS, how the rebalance is going to work, etc, and it occured to me; what if your weapons did not converge at all unless you had the target locked, and if you had the target locked your weapons would converge to the distance they are from your mech at the time?

For the longest time, convergence has been broken and the skill for it does nothing, etc. Why not actually give it a purpose? Have all of your weapons fire straight forward from their mounting and not converge at all unless you have the target locked, then you start getting the ability to hit select components again after doing so and can even lead targets with appropriate convergence for their distance.

This would actually give infotech a valuable purpose on the battlefield because you could focus your fire due to having locks, where you could not do so without.

I'm basically just brainstorming here. Thoughts?

I'll try to draw some really awful paint images to illustrate my proposal in between matches in a bit.

Edit: Here are the awful paint images I promised earlier: http://imgur.com/a/jvGKp

Legend: Yellow = Energy Hardpoint, Green = Missile Hardpoint (assume SRM in this case), Purple = Ballistic Hardpoint, Red Lines = Path of travel for shot at whatever it's own speed is, Black Rectanges = Mechs.

The first image is your mech standing there with all of its weapons in their various places.

The second image is your mech firing at thin air with no target currently locked. As you can see all shots fire straight forward from their hardpoint location.

The third image shows your mech firing at an enemy that you do not currently have locked and targeted. As you can see, your weapons fire as if they are not zeroed to any distance, even though your crosshair is directly on the enemy mech. Some weapons fire will hit, but it will be spread according to hardpoint position.

The fourth image shows what would happen if you locked the target from the previous example. Instead of your weapons firing willy nilly all over his mech in a straight line from your hardpoints, they will zero to the distance the enemy mech is from your own mech. In this case the weapons have zeroed to 450m and will hit the same spot at that point. Obviously the SRM arm in this example will explode before they reach the target, but I drew the shot path anyway showing they would have hit that spot if they could travel that far.

The fifth and final image shows what would happen if you fired into thin air when you have a target locked. Your weapons would still converge to the distance that target is from your own mech and would try to strike that location together. This would allow you to properly lead a target with projectile weapons (srm/ballistics/ppcs/etc) so that all weapons would theoretically hit the same point at that distance. Obviously weapon speeds will factor into when they cross over that point, but if you use similar weapons this would allow you to impact all rounds into the same component on your target with a lead.

Continuing on, as addressed by /u/K1ttykat, ECM would be an issue in its current form with this new system and would have to be addressed. I'm not sure the best means to do this exactly, but thoughts on the matter are:

Change how ECM functions. It is no longer a hard counter to gathering target information outside of 180m, but instead increases the time required to lock a target under its influence by 50% so a target that would take 2 seconds to lock takes 4 instead (numbers obviously negotiable). Alternatively lower the bubble range on ECM to 60m or something lower, and change the effect so that the mech can only be detected at half the range of normal. Example: You are in a mech with 800m sensors and an enemy is at 650m without ECM. You can detect him and lock him normally. However, his friend a short distance away has ECM and cannot be locked at the same range, but as soon as he closes within 400m can be locked as normal. The small bubble range would still allow a teammate with ECM to say run over and cover a teammate in the event they get NARCed (and add a bonus with cbill/exp reward for covering a NARC every 5-10s a NARCed teammate is under your umbrella being blocked from transmitting), but would make covering an entire team difficult.

[wanderer]

Hans Von Lohman, on 14 September 2015 - 08:58 PM, said:

All of this, with a bit more

Targeting Computers = current bonuses + current convergence. It is based on your reticle range. No target needed for convergence, just point and shoot to pinpoint somebody.

Every Clan player takes a TC1 and laughs at the pathetic IS underhive having to lock while they point-click-kill.

Quote

Elite Pilot Skill "Pinpoint" = a user defined convergence instead of infinity, set in the mechlab's weapon group menu.

Or, y'know it could actually just lock faster, thereby finally doing what it was supposed to- speed the time to when a 'Mech is on-target.