83 replies to this topic

[Appogee]

With all the interest in game balance this week, I thought it might be interesting to share with you a comparison I performed of IS weapons, equipment and combat attributes vs Clan equivalents.

In summary: I compared 95 attributes in total, determining - usually from data, sometimes qualitatively - whether the IS or Clan version was Better, Worse or Equal.

PDF file is here.

The result? Of the 94 attributes examined:
* Inner Sphere is better than Clan on 17 attributes
* Clan is better than Inner Sphere on 40 attributes
* IS and Clan are equal on the remaining 37 attributes.

The analysis isn't perfect. It doesn't contain any weighting of attributes... even though I'm sure some attributes (eg. the differing ranges of lasers) are more important to a Mech's combat effectiveness than some other attributes (eg. the differing tonnage requirement of MGs).

Perhaps someone might like to have a go at weighting the attributes, in order to arrive at a more nuanced analysis of IS vs Clan Mechs and equipment.

In any case, I hope you find this interesting, and that it helps factually inform the debate about IS vs Clan balance.

Edited by Appogee, 14 September 2015 - 01:27 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Early minor criticism, TCs don't affect MGs.

Edited by Mcgral18, 14 September 2015 - 12:44 PM.

[Appogee]

Mcgral18, on 14 September 2015 - 12:44 PM, said:

Early minor criticism, TCs don't affect MGs.

As you can see in the file, I called MG ctit chance as equal.

I noted in the comments that this thread by the developers says TCs provide "increased crit chance for projectile and beam weapons". However, while MGs are technically Ballistics, I don't believe MWO treats them as such.

So, the analysis stands for now

Edited by Appogee, 14 September 2015 - 12:50 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Appogee, on 14 September 2015 - 12:47 PM, said:

As you can see in the file, I called MG ctit chance as equal ... even though this thread by the developers says TCs provide "increased crit chance for projectile and beam weapons".

That's because, while MGs are technically Ballistics, I don't believe MWO treats them as such.

-<Module faction="Clan" CType="CTargetingComputerStats" name="TargetingComputerMkI" id="9013">
<Loc iconTag="StoreIcons\TargetingComputerMkI.png" descTag="@TargetingComputerMkI_desc" nameTag="@TargetingComputerMkI" shortNameTag="@ui_TargetingComputerMkI"/>
<ModuleStats health="10" tons="1.0" slots="1" amountAllowed="1"/>
 
-<TargetingComputerStats moduleDestroyedHudWarning="eHUD_TARGETING_COMPUTER_DESTROYED">
 
-<WeaponStatsFilter compatibleWeapons="SmallLaser,MediumLaser,LargeLaser,ClanERSmallLaser,ClanERMediumLaser,ERLargeLaser,ClanERLargeLaser,SmallPulseLaser,ClanSmallPulseLaser,MediumPulseLaser,ClanMediumPulseLaser,LargePulseLaser,ClanLargePulseLaser" tag="BeamWeapons">
<WeaponStats critChanceIncrease="0.0432,0.0242,0.0052" operation="+"/>
<WeaponStats operation="*" maxRange="1.0225" longRange="1.0225"/>
</WeaponStatsFilter>
 
-<WeaponStatsFilter compatibleWeapons="AutoCannon2,ClanAutoCannon2,AutoCannon5,ClanAutoCannon5,AutoCannon10,ClanAutoCannon10,AutoCannon20,ClanAutoCannon20,GaussRifle,ClanGaussRifle,ClanUltraAutoCannon2,UltraAutoCannon5,ClanUltraAutoCannon5,ClanUltraAutoCannon10,ClanUltraAutoCannon20,PPC,ERPPC,ClanERPPC" tag="ProjectileWeapons">
<WeaponStats critChanceIncrease="0.0432,0.0242,0.0052" operation="+"/>
<WeaponStats operation="*" speed="1.045"/>
</WeaponStatsFilter>
</TargetingComputerStats>
<Audio OnDestroyedDialogue="BB_Targeting_Computer_Destroyed"/>
</Module>

You'll note, no MG in that list (but it does list all the other IS weapons). No Flamer either (which is the closest relation to MGs, constant fire hitscan weapons).


One oddity for SRMs as well. Slots Required is blank (which goes towards the Clams), and there's the 40CM CoF difference between the Clam and IS SRMs. Just as minor as the isSRM damage increase, might as well list both as equal.

[LordKnightFandragon]

PPC Dmg...that can just go in the box as Equal...

[Appogee]

Mcgral18, on 14 September 2015 - 12:54 PM, said:

One oddity for SRMs as well. Slots Required is blank (which goes towards the Clams), and there's the 40CM CoF difference between the Clam and IS SRMs. Just as minor as the isSRM damage increase, might as well list both as equal.

Thanks, I fixed the missing SRM Slots line and rated IS SRM accuracy as better due to the COF - because even though it's small, it's still an advantage. Small differences like that would be better weeded out in the weighted analysis.

I've updated the OP and file accordingly.

Edited by Appogee, 14 September 2015 - 01:07 PM.

[Lugh]

Appogee, on 14 September 2015 - 12:39 PM, said:

With all the interest in game balance this week, I thought it might be interesting to share with you a comparison I performed of IS weapons, equipment and combat attributes vs Clan equivalents.

In summary: I compared 94 attributes in total, determining - usually from data, sometimes qualitatively - whether the IS or Clan version was Better, Worse or Equal.

PDF file is here.

The result? Of the 94 attributes examined:
* Inner Sphere is better than Clan on 13 attributes
* Clan is better than Inner Sphere on 39 attributes
* IS and Clan are equal on the remaining 42 attributes.

The analysis isn't perfect. It doesn't contain any weighting of attributes... even though I'm sure some attributes (eg. the differing ranges of lasers) are more important to a Mech's combat effectiveness than some other attributes (eg. the differing tonnage requirement of MGs).

Perhaps someone might like to have a go at weighting the attributes, in order to arrive at a more nuanced analysis of IS vs Clan Mechs and equipment.

In any case, I hope you find this interesting, and that it helps factually inform the debate about IS vs Clan balance.

Can you do it again and actually not be biased about it

You lost me at Autocannons Damage Equal which is a LOAD OF HORSE DUNG.

20 PPD is vastly Superior to 4 packets of 5 Damage.

SO that goes to IS.

You neglected to mention heat on PPCs where IS again comes out on top.

You also neglected to mention that Endosteel can be done to ALL THE THINGS IS side. Clan side you have it or you don't.
Another huge point in IS favor.
Same with FerroFiberous
Beam Duration you left off your little list too which is again an IS advantage.
The true count on your arbitrary better / worse scale is 19 for the IS and 38 for clans for the better column.
Of those 38 'better' things (laser damage in particular) if you are eating the full beam from a clan mech's laser YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG.

[Appogee]

LordKnightFandragon, on 14 September 2015 - 12:55 PM, said:

PPC Dmg...that can just go in the box as Equal...

Clan PPCs do an extra 2.5 damage to each adjacent component (when there is an adjacent component).

Eg. a hit to the CT will do 2.5 to the RT and 2.5 to the LT. A hit to the RT will do 2.5 to the RA and 2.5 to the CT.

[Appogee]

Lugh, on 14 September 2015 - 01:06 PM, said:

Can you do it again and actually not be biased about it

There is nothing biased as far as I can tell. Incidentally, I own and play all the IS and Clan Mechs. I have no vested interest one way or the other.

Lugh, on 14 September 2015 - 01:06 PM, said:

You lost me at Autocannons Damage Equal which is a LOAD OF HORSE DUNG.
20 PPD is vastly Superior to 4 packets of 5 Damage.

The superior Accuracy of ACs and UACs is already noted as +2 attributes for the IS in the comparison.

Lugh, on 14 September 2015 - 01:06 PM, said:

You neglected to mention heat on PPCs where IS again comes out on top.

Thanks, I have added that as +1 to the comparison.

Lugh, on 14 September 2015 - 01:06 PM, said:

You also neglected to mention that Endosteel can be done to ALL THE THINGS IS side. Clan side you have it or you don't. Another huge point in IS favor. Same with FerroFiberous

Thanks, I have added that as +1 to the comparison, even though some Clan Mechs have them already. I figure the option to have it nets out as a IS advantage.

Lugh, on 14 September 2015 - 01:06 PM, said:

Beam Duration you left off your little list too which is again an IS advantage.

It is already listed - see "Accuracy".


Please try to be less abusive when responding to someone who is just trying to help the community by sharing some information.

Edited by Appogee, 14 September 2015 - 01:26 PM.

[Erkki]

I'm not sure how useful absolute stuff like these are. After all, weapons and equipment don't exist in vacuum but are put onto mechs.

Try IS vs. Clan Laser Damage / Burn Time ratios too. Longer burn time is not necessarily a disadvantage, not when you do more damage in the same burn time and then some more... And damage per heat for weapons ratios in general. Damage/heat/time ratios per invested ton of equipment too...

Btw IS quirks or not, the cERML is crazy.

[Appogee]

Erkki, on 14 September 2015 - 01:25 PM, said:

I'm not sure how useful absolute stuff like these are. After all, weapons and equipment don't exist in vacuum but are put onto mechs.

Sure. This is just one perspective.

Erkki, on 14 September 2015 - 01:25 PM, said:

Try IS vs. Clan Laser Damage / Burn Time ratios too. Longer burn time is not necessarily a disadvantage, not when you do more damage in the same burn time and then some more...

I included both damage and burn time in the comparison.

Erkki, on 14 September 2015 - 01:25 PM, said:

And damage per heat for weapons ratios in general. Damage/heat/time ratios per invested ton of equipment too...

I included heat in the comparison.

[Appogee]

Heading to bed now, but I will look for more constructive feedback and observations in the morning

Happy hunting, all.

[Erkki]

You missed my point Appogee. The extra heat and burn are not true disadvantages if with them you get more damage and more damage/burn time too. Usually one can, if necessary, start twisting mid-burn too and no shoot a friendly.

For example, ML and cERML are both 1 ton and produce 1,2 and 1,167 damage per heat. Yet cERML has massive range advantage, has much higher dps and within ISML's burn time actually does more damage.

The Clan small lasers are even better compared to IS options. Actually Larges too. Clan lasers are so good that no wonder they're boated often at almost all costs.

[Thorqemada]

The difference between the IS AC20 and the Clan AC20 is that you use the CUAC20 and have 8x5 Damage instead of 4x5 thus the CUAC20 is way superior to the IS AC20,

[Appogee]

Thorqemada, on 14 September 2015 - 01:52 PM, said:

The difference between the IS AC20 and the Clan AC20 is that you use the CUAC20 and have 8x5 Damage instead of 4x5 thus the CUAC20 is way superior to the IS AC20,

True. But that's comparing Clan UAC to IS AC, which isn't apples to apples.

I feel I accounted for the Clan advantage there by by giving Clans +1 for AC Variety.

[El Bandito]

Checkmate Athei...I mean Clan apologists!

Though it was obvious to anyone who had enough neurons to form a synapse that Clan tech was generally better than IS tech, from the beginning.

Edited by El Bandito, 15 September 2015 - 12:02 AM.

[Sjorpha]

Appogee, on 14 September 2015 - 10:07 PM, said:

True. But that's comparing Clan UAC to IS AC, which isn't apples to apples.

I feel I accounted for the Clan advantage there by by giving Clans +1 for AC Variety.

There is no actual apple to compare with though, I think the IS AC20 needs to be compared the the cUAC20 because that is the actual in game correspondent.

I'd say they are rather equal all things considered, the clan has lower tonnage and double tap while the IS has PPFLD. No doubt the cUAC20 has a higher skill ceiling to use well though, even if they are both among the more difficult weapons to max out.

[Sigilum Sanctum]

At least he isn't doing something stupid, like suggesting we make the IS LPL 11 tons.

[Vellron2005]

After a relatively quick review, I can conclude what is basically common knowledge:

Clan tech is lighter, heats up more, and has better range.

IS tech has better acuracy,

And you know what?

Sounds like it should according to the Lore and all the previous MW games I've played..

So I don't see what's the problem here?

[Appogee]

Vellron2005, on 15 September 2015 - 12:23 AM, said:

So I don't see what's the problem here?

The first problem is that you seem to think that there needs to be a problem for someone to post a thread comparing IS vs Clan balance characteristics.

However, if it's important that every thread be justified by a "problem" then perhaps in this case that problem can be that, every time someone wants to talk about Clan vs IS balance, the conversation goes something like this...

"IS is OP because IS ACs do point point damage."

"No, Clans are OP because their lasers do more damage over longer range."

"But IS can change their engines, whereas Clan engines are locked."

"Clans engines might be locked, but they can survive a blown torso even with an XL engine."

And so on, back and forth, and endless stream of single balancing points trotted out to justify whatever point of view the poster has on the IS vs Clan balance.

Well, now someone has taken the time to compare and share as many balancing characteristics as they could think of. And found that IS is better than Clan on 17 attributes, and Clan is better than Inner Sphere on 40 attributes.

So, there are some facts on the table to better inform a discussion, rather than endless single balancing datapoints taken in isolation of the bigger picture.

Edited by Appogee, 15 September 2015 - 05:06 AM.