106 replies to this topic

[Squarebasher]

There is no point in talking about what is now because everything is being looked at in the new balance pass.

[Aresye]

kapusta11, on 15 September 2015 - 12:09 AM, said:

Can't remember 4N having burn duration quirks.

I never said the 4N specifically had burn duration quirks.

[Sjorpha]

Aresye Kerensky, on 15 September 2015 - 12:07 AM, said:

Spread damage is wasted damage, so while the damage "output" might be close, if one side is putting the majority of that into the opponent's CT while the other side is spreading it across all 3 torsos and both arms, that side has the advantage.

We are talking about spike DPS within a given duration/part of duration, therefore there is no difference in spread for that particular part of your shot. So spread isn't really relevant to the OPs point.

Quote

And no, the damage isn't similar up until the point the IS player twists away, because the numbers on those stats reflect base values for the weapons, and completely neglects quirks. With any of the popular IS laser vomit builds the DED value is HEAVILY in favor of the IS.

IS meta builds generally don't have higher spike damage within a given duration, because the clan vomit meta builds have much higher alphas. (compare 5SS to laservom EBJ for example)

They DO have much better heat control, because of the durations, resulting in a lower skill cap and often higher effective sustained DPS.

I don't think we actually disagree.

There is also a here tendency to compare IS brawling focused laser builds to clan laser vomit, which is a bit misleading.

IS medpulse builds are better compared to clan SPL builds than laser vomit, since laser vomit is a midrange poking tactic and very different from what a 5SS is doing. Clan SPL builds basically have the same advantages that IS medpulse builds do, with a slightly longer duration but less tonnage and better heat. It's basically a wash after quirks.

I would compare clan laser vomit primarily to IS large laser builds, since that is the same kind of role.

Edited by Sjorpha, 15 September 2015 - 12:33 AM.

[Yellonet]

To be clear about the point I was trying to make: Even though IS lasers have shorter duration, that is in itself not an advantage as on average IS and Clan lasers do about the same damage for the same duration.

I purposely left out heat and range of the lasers to not confuse the matter further.

So let's stop saying that IS lasers have advantage when it comes to duration.
If we talk about heat, well that's another matter.

Personally I would feel that Clan lasers should produce even more heat, then there could be a balance of sort where Clans rule on distance due to range and damage and IS rules close up where sustained DPS is important.

[Erkki]

It should also be noted that ML and cERML do the same amount of damage per unit of heat created, and that cERML actually has considerably higher DPS even with the burn time accounted for...

Same thing with the rest of the Clan lasers.

[xXBagheeraXx]

YOu havent been wubbed by a duration qurked LPL IS mech like the Thud have you? They can do all thier damage in like 3 wubs...its only a few seconds, and they fire 3 at a time with no ghost heat now. They do have an advantage, a massive advantage when it comes to duration quirked mechs, and there are QUITE a few of them. Clan lasers are like Freespace 2 beam cannons by comparison. The table is a LIE.

[Ultimax]

Satan n stuff, on 14 September 2015 - 03:08 PM, said:

Those are just the weapon stats, they're meaningless without context. There are negative duration quirks for nearly all of the most powerful omnipods and positive ones on nearly every laser boating IS mech, so without factoring in those you can't draw any conclusions.

We can draw conclusions.

When the top competitive teams have zero restrictions in creating their drop decks, they are full of Clan mechs like DWFs, TBRs (even with their "negative" quirks), HBRs, Stormcrows all with Lasers or Lasers + Gauss.


They are not full of IS mechs with positive quirks.



That's the only conclusion anyone rational needs.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 15 September 2015 - 05:48 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

xXBagheeraXx, on 15 September 2015 - 05:32 AM, said:

YOu havent been wubbed by a duration qurked LPL IS mech like the Thud have you? They can do all thier damage in like 3 wubs...its only a few seconds, and they fire 3 at a time with no ghost heat now. They do have an advantage, a massive advantage when it comes to duration quirked mechs, and there are QUITE a few of them. Clan lasers are like Freespace 2 beam cannons by comparison. The table is a LIE.

and why do you get close enough that a LPL IS T-Bolt can hit you?

[xXBagheeraXx]

Karl Streiger, on 15 September 2015 - 05:47 AM, said:

and why do you get close enough that a LPL IS T-Bolt can hit you?

Because a Tbolt is faster than most assautl mechs I drive, has high laser mounts, and I cant exactly see around corners, so the second I pop out...WUBWUBWUB and hes already bucking back in cover by the time I get my gauss rifles charged. These things are about as front loaded as old ERPPC Thuds.

IS has a duration advantage. Duration with lasers is the best possible thing youc an have. Most CW drops Ive seen in videos the clanners are mostly packing mixed lasers and streaks. THe only advantage clans have is range and higher base damage, clan lasers, with the exception of the Medium pulse and lower, and the small laser if they get close are not a huge worry, the duration is massive and you can roll that damage ALL OVER your torso and arms. Honestly ive had large laser madcats hit me and ive able to roll it over my frontal armor TWICE over in a crab. Thats how long the duration is. where as an IS laserboat I can perhas spread it over...what...2 armor sections? If its large pulse laser, Its all in one section and there isnt a dammed thing I can do about it. I have to respect large pulse laser mechs like the Zeus more so than I do AC40 crabs at short range, they can core you in SECONDS.

[Revis Volek]

Yellonet, on 15 September 2015 - 01:36 AM, said:

To be clear about the point I was trying to make: Even though IS lasers have shorter duration, that is in itself not an advantage as on average IS and Clan lasers do about the same damage for the same duration.

I purposely left out heat and range of the lasers to not confuse the matter further.

So let's stop saying that IS lasers have advantage when it comes to duration.
If we talk about heat, well that's another matter.

Personally I would feel that Clan lasers should produce even more heat, then there could be a balance of sort where Clans rule on distance due to range and damage and IS rules close up where sustained DPS is important.

They do have an advantage in burn time....your table shows it and quirks take this even further.

Please look at those numbers, aside from the IS having a smaller number in every category please explain to me how that is not an advantage in burn time? Is it a game breaking advantage no, hell no. But dont try to lie when the numbers are right there perfectly displayed on your table....

Most Clan mechs dont have crazy quirks, in fact the TBR and SCR's have neg quirks on some pods...


How can you sit here and say that the IS doesn't have shorter burn lasers when you table perfectly displays that? You are smoking something amazing let me tell ya.


You are trying to prove a point that is in fact wrong, you are wrong, Period.

Edited by DarthRevis, 15 September 2015 - 06:07 AM.

[Erkki]

That's pretty interesting that you have problems with Thunderbolts, because, the Wub-Bolt TDR-5SS's quirked MPLs do in their 0,6 sec burn time exactly the same damage (6 points) as cMPLs and they have exactly the same range and weight. The superquirked MPL has better damage/heat ratio, but loses in raw DPS. (source: Li Song Mechlab).

In other words, even the premiere IS superquirked wub-brawler's quirked weapons are still only equal to Clantech equivalents. You just have a mech badly equipped for brawling.

[Revis Volek]

xXBagheeraXx, on 15 September 2015 - 05:54 AM, said:

Because a Tbolt is faster than most assautl mechs I drive, has high laser mounts, and I cant exactly see around corners, so the second I pop out...WUBWUBWUB and hes already bucking back in cover by the time I get my gauss rifles charged. These things are about as front loaded as old ERPPC Thuds.

IS has a duration advantage. Duration with lasers is the best possible thing youc an have. Most CW drops Ive seen in videos the clanners are mostly packing mixed lasers and streaks. THe only advantage clans have is range and higher base damage, clan lasers, with the exception of the Medium pulse and lower, and the small laser if they get close are not a huge worry, the duration is massive and you can roll that damage ALL OVER your torso and arms. Honestly ive had large laser madcats hit me and ive able to roll it over my frontal armor TWICE over in a crab. Thats how long the duration is. where as an IS laserboat I can perhas spread it over...what...2 armor sections? If its large pulse laser, Its all in one section and there isnt a dammed thing I can do about it. I have to respect large pulse laser mechs like the Zeus more so than I do AC40 crabs at short range, they can core you in SECONDS.

3 lpl Thud is no more "frontloaded" (which its not) then any other mech with 3 lpl's....

They only core things that dont twist and have no armor in seconds....i have no issue killing them.


Also Clans have more advatnages then just range...all this newb talk and BS is killing me...Clan Xl's anyone?

[Lily from animove]

Yellonet, on 14 September 2015 - 03:00 PM, said:

Here and there I see people claiming that the shorter durations of IS lasers compared to clan lasers are a clear advantage.

I took a closer look at this, and it turns out that there really isn't any overall advantage.

While it's true that IS lasers have shorter durations, they also has a lower damage potential per duration.

As the table below shows, some IS lasers have better DPS than some Clan lasers and vice versa.

DPS is what is key, but I've also put in Damage per Equal Duration (DED) which shows how much damage each laser does when hitting the target for the same duration (IS weapon duration).

Depending on if you compare CERLL with LL or ERLL it's either a draw or +1 to IS for DPS.
It should however be compared to ERLL as the CERLL shoots further than both IS Large Lasers.
So in pure duration/DPS it's an overall draw.




When both IS and Clan lasers start to fire it's an overall draw, but, then the IS laser stops firing, and the Clan laser continues to put damage on target. From further away.

Now, please, stop saying that IS has an advantage in laser duration.

and you do, as usual in the laser discussion like 99,5% of the IS population forget the very most important thing:

HEAT EFFICIENCY

Thats the magical word, many do not know how it properly works.

Usually people twist laserfire away. This means any damage you apply no to the seciton you wanted to damage is "wasted damage" or damage of less usage.

Clanlasers are HOTTER and deliver more damage, but spread over time. This means form a fixed given hetatreshold, a Clanlaser will waste more heat into non vital components when this gets spreaded. and by this he will fater run out of heat treshold. He will apply more damage but in less important components. Unless he can stay on the same location all time, which is extremely unrealistic, otherwise TBR's could two alpha nealry all mechs.

And that is the reaosn why IS lasers are more heatefficient, and thats why the CERLL is nearly unused, because it is the least efficient weapon of all alsers to apply damage created from heat into damage in a wanted section, because the beam literally grants the most slowest opponent enough time to twist away damage.

Sometimes I just want crosstech for a single month in MWO, to see all the IS players flaing with those aweosme and "much better" Clanlasers in their mechs. WHile I cna enjoy 12 IS mediumlasers in my NVA and enjoying the massive fun of their heat efficiency and lower beamduration.

otheriwse I guess I have to wait soem years for the IS blackhawk appearing to do so.

Karl Streiger, on 15 September 2015 - 05:47 AM, said:

and why do you get close enough that a LPL IS T-Bolt can hit you?

becuse all maps have plenty of cover to ALWAYS allow you getting close enough.

Ultimatum X, on 15 September 2015 - 05:44 AM, said:

We can draw conclusions.

When the top competitive teams have zero restrictions in creating their drop decks, they are full of Clan mechs like DWFs, TBRs (even with their "negative" quirks), HBRs, Stormcrows all with Lasers or Lasers + Gauss.


They are not full of IS mechs with positive quirks.



That's the only conclusion anyone rational needs.

And I guarantee you, if the IS had the same chassis and hardpoints as those listed emchs, they woudl use IS HBR's IS, SCR's and IS TBR's and IS DWF's. because then they would have more firepower due to heat efficiency. This is a pure thing due to those chassis and how their omnimech ability allows Hardpoints, and not entirely caused by Is vs Clan.

Edited by Lily from animove, 15 September 2015 - 06:23 AM.

[Lugh]

Suko, on 14 September 2015 - 03:40 PM, said:

I frickin' hate the clan burn time. I take my Catapult out and feel like a beast. Twisting and turning to absorb damage. With my MadCat, I basically stand there and eat a facefull of autocannon rounds as I wait the excruciatingly long time for the damn things to finish. I don't care what any number nerds say, the damn IS layers let me survive a brawl way better than the clan lasers.

Some of the numbers nerds don't have reaction times to take advantage of a .25 second difference in burn time.

Their brains freeze for that time and then they finally thing oh yeah twist to roll damage.

[InRev]

DarthRevis, on 15 September 2015 - 06:03 AM, said:

They do have an advantage in burn time....your table shows it and quirks take this even further.

You really aren't getting it, are you? The OP's point is that over the duration of an IS laser weapon, a clan laser still does the same amount of damage, if not more. For example, over the course of an IS ML's burn time (.9 seconds) a clan laser will still do 6.14 damage and at longer range. In other words, you can twist away after the equivalent duration and still do as much damage.

Now there are two counter-arguments: quirks and heat.

Regarding the first, rumor has it that weapon quirks are going to be scaled down significantly after the rebalance. This affects IS lasers much more heavily than Clan versions, meaning we will likely no longer see IS beam lasers with pulse durations.

The second (heat) is a bit more subtle. Generally speaking, heat isn't even as big an issue as people make it out to be for two reasons: 1) Clan mechs tend to carry more DHS than equivalent IS mechs due to superior Endo and Ferro, and DHS that take up fewer slots. For example, a laser crow usually carries 21 to 23 DHS while a sparky Can only cram in 16 to 18; 2) sustained DPS isn't as important as pure burst, since brawling is dead at high tier and people can usually drop back into cover to cool off. This is where those extra heat sinks come into play, since they will increase your heat cap quite a bit, freeing up extra alphas.

What remains, then, is that Clan weapons still retain a notable range advantage, thus explaining why they are still the go-to equipment at comp level.

[Erkki]

What heat efficiency? ML and cERML produce same dmg/heat (1,2 and 1,167 respectively).

Quirks help the IS a lot but even in best cases the IS is only equal, for the few selected meks. In a singe weapon.

[Lily from animove]

Erkki, on 15 September 2015 - 06:22 AM, said:

What heat efficiency? ML and cERML produce same dmg/heat (1,2 and 1,167 respectively).

Quirks help the IS a lot but even in best cases the IS is only equal, for the few selected meks. In a singe weapon.

but the beamtime will only make you apply less damage of a clanlaser in the wanted component dude to spreading, and this emans less of the heat invested geneates damage where you wanted it to apply. and thus is less heatefficient. otherwise you could make MW3 liek pulselasers, but no one would use them in MWO for beign utter trash by beamduration. You know I cna not say my laser atm, to Stop shooting, and so wasting heat on unnecessary components is inefficient heat.

Thats basically the same thing as Is AC's vs Clan AC's. because clan AC's do the SAME damage, yet they are inferior, because damage applies not where its wanted to (givne your opponent can spread) and then your ammo, or heat for hooter AC's means inefficient use of firepower). Thats also why so many clanners prefer a gauss, because it is the only B without bullet stream.

Edited by Lily from animove, 15 September 2015 - 06:31 AM.

[kapusta11]

Lily from animove, on 15 September 2015 - 06:17 AM, said:

and you do, as usual in the laser discussion like 99,5% of the IS population forget the very most important thing:

HEAT EFFICIENCY

Thats the magical word, many do not know how it properly works.

Usually people twist laserfire away. This means any damage you apply no to the seciton you wanted to damage is "wasted damage" or damage of less usage.

Clanlasers are HOTTER and deliver more damage, but spread over time. This means form a fixed given hetatreshold, a Clanlaser will waste more heat into non vital components when this gets spreaded. and by this he will fater run out of heat treshold. He will apply more damage but in less important components. Unless he can stay on the same location all time, which is extremely unrealistic, otherwise TBR's could two alpha nealry all mechs.

And that is the reaosn why IS lasers are more heatefficient, and thats why the CERLL is nearly unused, because it is the least efficient weapon of all alsers to apply damage created from heat into damage in a wanted section, because the beam literally grants the most slowest opponent enough time to twist away damage.

Sometimes I just want crosstech for a single month in MWO, to see all the IS players flaing with those aweosme and "much better" Clanlasers in their mechs. WHile I cna enjoy 12 IS mediumlasers in my NVA and enjoying the massive fun of their heat efficiency and lower beamduration.

otheriwse I guess I have to wait soem years for the IS blackhawk appearing to do so.




becuse all maps have plenty of cover to ALWAYS allow you getting close enough.




And I guarantee you, if the IS had the same chassis and hardpoints as those listed emchs, they woudl use IS HBR's IS, SCR's and IS TBR's and IS DWF's. because then they would have more firepower due to heat efficiency. This is a pure thing due to those chassis and how their omnimech ability allows Hardpoints, and not entirely caused by Is vs Clan.

My PSR is higher than yours and thus you're wrong!

What? Just practicing.

Edited by kapusta11, 15 September 2015 - 06:34 AM.

[Erkki]

Then use cMPL instead of cERML if you feel the last 0,2 s of the beam duration goes wasted. You lose some of the range and dps/invested mass advantage but hey, cant always have everything.

[STEF_]

Lily from animove, on 15 September 2015 - 06:17 AM, said:

good stuff

^^
Guys, read well what Lily said.

I cannot be more agree.

//thread