106 replies to this topic

[Ultimax]

Satan n stuff, on 15 September 2015 - 01:30 PM, said:

So this has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that those particular mechs all have god-tier hitboxes and/or hardpoints?

This might come as a shock to you, but the DWF, TBR and HBR do not have "god tier" hitboxes.

Neither does the EBJ for that matter.


What makes them T1 is the firepower they can bring, or more clearly the number of CERMLAS they can load.

Because it's probably the single most overpowered laser in the game.

[Y E O N N E]

Lily from animove, on 15 September 2015 - 01:26 PM, said:

but the opponent isn't becasue he coudl twist your damage away, while your chart implies he fully laoded it into the same location. Also your chart does not show what happens when the heatlimit is reached and the clanner can not fire his lasers anymore, while the IS mech can continue. its again, half the truth being shown. gain until the moment the IS advantage jkciks in. If most IS pilots have just this short kind of a planning interval no wonder they fail to take advantage.

You assume the IS pilot can actually close on the Clan target when the Clan target has reached his heat limit. Only an idiot would be out in the open, and only the king of idiots would be fighting from a position where his allies can't take some hits for him or otherwise suppress the assailant.

You ever try fighting 1 vs. an EmP firing line? Yeah. No. You all poke out together or you die one at a time.

[Lily from animove]

Yeonne Greene, on 15 September 2015 - 07:26 PM, said:

You assume the IS pilot can actually close on the Clan target when the Clan target has reached his heat limit. Only an idiot would be out in the open, and only the king of idiots would be fighting from a position where his allies can't take some hits for him or otherwise suppress the assailant.

You ever try fighting 1 vs. an EmP firing line? Yeah. No. You all poke out together or you die one at a time.

No, you can approach to the opponent nearly anywhere on the current maps, That means you will be in range anways. And then you push together with the others, which means in the firexchange happening the clanners will reach their heatlimit rather fast and then you just push further. How about you join one of those Units who succesfully play IS mechs to see how it works? Because they somehow manage to play their Is mechs properly, not only vs clanpugs.

Edited by Lily from animove, 15 September 2015 - 10:28 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

You can approach, yes, but that doesn't mean you can approach without getting shot at. I suppose you aren't familiar with the concepts of over-watch and enfilading fire. You also seem to forget that Clan brawlers are even better than IS brawlers. More powerful, faster, and just as cold.

Also, don't let my current faction fool you, I run IS 99% of the time and quite successfully. The difference is I'm not deluding myself into thinking I'm going to beat up a properly built Clan deck with a bunch of IS brawlers.

As for joining "one of those Units who successfully play IS mechs to see how it works," all I have to say to you is "lol" and that I'll see you on the field. Kaw.

[anonymous161]

You put very little thought and research into your stupid topic. Is lasers way more usable than clan lasers. I want the original clan lasers dont care if they are considered over powered just take away that long duration and I'll start playing the game more regularly.

[Yellonet]

Darth Bane001, on 15 September 2015 - 11:21 PM, said:

You put very little thought and research into your stupid topic. Is lasers way more usable than clan lasers. I want the original clan lasers dont care if they are considered over powered just take away that long duration and I'll start playing the game more regularly.

Oh the irony

[Lily from animove]

Yeonne Greene, on 15 September 2015 - 11:15 PM, said:

You can approach, yes, but that doesn't mean you can approach without getting shot at. I suppose you aren't familiar with the concepts of over-watch and enfilading fire. You also seem to forget that Clan brawlers are even better than IS brawlers. More powerful, faster, and just as cold.

Also, don't let my current faction fool you, I run IS 99% of the time and quite successfully. The difference is I'm not deluding myself into thinking I'm going to beat up a properly built Clan deck with a bunch of IS brawlers.

As for joining "one of those Units who successfully play IS mechs to see how it works," all I have to say to you is "lol" and that I'll see you on the field. Kaw.

play more clanners then if you play 99% IS.

I play a lot clanners and I know what "my weak situation" is, and I know how many alphas at the sky I need to see to know when a opponent clanner is overheated (don't forget, clanners play vs clanners as well) and this is very much helping to strike them in their "Wrong" moment. it works equally qell in IS mechs as well as Clanmechs when countering clanners.
If you cannot properly approach on the mas and stay unseen and unhit, you porbably choose the wrong pathes.

[Yellonet]

Lily from animove, on 15 September 2015 - 01:26 PM, said:

but the opponent isn't becasue he coudl twist your damage away, while your chart implies he fully laoded it into the same location. Also your chart does not show what happens when the heatlimit is reached and the clanner can not fire his lasers anymore, while the IS mech can continue. its again, half the truth being shown. gain until the moment the IS advantage jkciks in. If most IS pilots have just this short kind of a planning interval no wonder they fail to take advantage.

My Chart implies no such thing, the chart only shows the theoretical max damage and the timing of said damage being applied for the listed weapons.
This is not about every aspect of combat, that is just too complex to break down like this and get anything worth while from.
It is simply to show that even within the effective range of IS weapons Clan weapons still have the edge in dealing damage, at least for the first few volleys.
Shorter duration with lower damage isn't really an advantage, that's what the chart shows.

[Lily from animove]

Yellonet, on 15 September 2015 - 11:40 PM, said:

My Chart implies no such thing, the chart only shows the theoretical max damage and the timing of said damage being applied for the listed weapons.
This is not about every aspect of combat, that is just too complex to break down like this and get anything worth while from.
It is simply to show that even within the effective range of IS weapons Clan weapons still have the edge in dealing damage, at least for the first few volleys.
Shorter duration with lower damage isn't really an advantage, that's what the chart shows.

so you say you ignore how MWO plays, and you only take the raw numbers, which makes you deny the advantage and the possibility to finding and using this advantage in field?

Good god, no wonder some people can't compete or think something else is OP.

your chart is biased and broken, thats ALL IT TRULY SHOWS. It's not even scientific.

[Erkki]

Ad hominem again;, I'm sure you can do better Lily. Can you tell us again what exactly the advantage IS has in their lasers was?

[Bows3r]

Unfortunately, the OP's chart might have something going for it if he took into account the 3 ghost heat limit of IS, vs 2 of clans. Because he doesn't, IS will always be doing more damage then clans for the same burn time, and usually for less heat too. Yes the clan's have more range, but if both sets of lasers are firing at the optimal range of the clans, then the IS lasers are still doing more damage. (assuming ER-LL)

[Erkki]

Yeah, you get that if you ignore weight. Better equivalent for ISERLL would be the cLPL.

2 cLPL: 600 meters, 26 damage, burn time 1,1 s, DPH 1,3 and DPS of 6 for 12 tons and 4 slots
3 ISERLL: 675 meters, 27 damage, burn time 1,2 s, DPH 1,1 and DPS of 6 for 15 tons 6 slots

Which one you pick, the one with 3,8% damage/alpha and 12,5% range advantage or the one that does everything else better, for considerably less weight and space?

No ghost heat there either.

edit: why the heck haven't I tried dual LPLs on my Summoner yet?!?

Edited by Erkki, 16 September 2015 - 01:13 AM.

[Duke Nedo]

@OP: Some things are easier to describe with words than with numbers...

The Clan advantage is mainly that for the same tonnage/critslots, a clan mech has much higher damage potential and range

The IS advantage is that when in close range, and only then, they have the advantage of more surgical lasers, i.e. more control over how the damage is applied. Clan lasers are not worse per unit of beam time, but the longer burn gives them less control over how it's applied. This makes them brutal vs slow moving targets, or distracted targets or bad targets in general, and less good vs good lights.

All in all, the one IS advantage does not own up to the several clan advantages. As a workaround, clans also have access to cSPLs which are surgical enough and still have decent range. When you throw clan PLs into the mix their advantage is obvious. Relevant performance comparisons as food for thought:

3x IS ERL (15 tons, 6 slots) vs 2x cLPLs (12 tons, 4 slots)
3x IS LPL (21 tons, 6 slots) vs 4x cMPLs (8 tons, 4 slots)
6x IS MPL (12 tons, 6 slots) vs 6x cSPLs (6 tons, 6 slots)

Edit: Heh, sniped by Erkki!

Edited by Duke Nedo, 16 September 2015 - 01:16 AM.

[Satan n stuff]

Ultimatum X, on 15 September 2015 - 03:51 PM, said:

This might come as a shock to you, but the DWF, TBR and HBR do not have "god tier" hitboxes.

Neither does the EBJ for that matter.


What makes them T1 is the firepower they can bring, or more clearly the number of CERMLAS they can load.

Because it's probably the single most overpowered laser in the game.

Hitboxes and/or hardpoints. Learn to read. The Hellbringer has ECM which by itself makes it one of the best mechs in the game, paired with good hardpoint locations and decent hitboxes, the Dire has the most ridiculous hardpoint configuration this side of an Overlord dropship and the free tonnage to use those hardpoints, the Ebon Jaguar also has amazing hardpoints and decent hitboxes and the Timberwolf does in fact have amazing hitboxes and great hardpoints, that is why it almost never gets cored before losing a sidetorso.

Edited by Satan n stuff, 16 September 2015 - 02:05 AM.

[Yellonet]

Lily from animove, on 15 September 2015 - 11:43 PM, said:

so you say you ignore how MWO plays, and you only take the raw numbers, which makes you deny the advantage and the possibility to finding and using this advantage in field?

Yes?
You cannot put a realistic representation of MWO combat in a chart, there's too many variables.

But as long as we are talking Clan vs IS it stands to reason that before the IS mech even comes into effective range with its guns, the Clan mechs have had the opportunity to inflict a good deal of damage to the IS mech for basically no return damage. Therefore the Clan mech will have an even greater advantage early in the fight; the enemy is damaged and the Clan mech has a more powerful alpha.

Bu bu but cover! Yes, but a good pilot that wishes to fight on a distance will find ways to deny the enemy an approach in cover.

Lily from animove, on 15 September 2015 - 11:43 PM, said:

Good god, no wonder some people can't compete or think something else is OP.

your chart is biased and broken, thats ALL IT TRULY SHOWS. It's not even scientific.

.......... ....

Edited by Yellonet, 16 September 2015 - 09:07 AM.

[Ultimax]

Bows3r, on 16 September 2015 - 12:34 AM, said:

Unfortunately, the OP's chart might have something going for it if he took into account the 3 ghost heat limit of IS, vs 2 of clans. Because he doesn't, IS will always be doing more damage then clans for the same burn time, and usually for less heat too. Yes the clan's have more range, but if both sets of lasers are firing at the optimal range of the clans, then the IS lasers are still doing more damage. (assuming ER-LL)

When you can skirt ghost heat and supplement with CERMLAS it's kind of irrelevant.

Unless the only thing you want to compare is extreme long range firing of 3x ER LLAS vs. 3x CERLLAS.

Otherwise 2x CLPL is superior to 3x LLAS.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 16 September 2015 - 09:21 AM.

[Lugh]

Erkki, on 16 September 2015 - 12:17 AM, said:

Ad hominem again;, I'm sure you can do better Lily. Can you tell us again what exactly the advantage IS has in their lasers was?

In any 'Trade' being made between mechs one is putting their damage out there, then twisting and turning back in to cover.

That the IS can do this by .25 - .5 even .75 seconds faster on most laser platforms means that they are applying the effective damage on point FIRST and then moving to survive FIRST and spreading / avoiding completely damage from the clan lasers.

They also did this at a lower heat cost.

That you still don't understand this, is why you fail so often in matches.

[Dino Might]

Lugh, on 16 September 2015 - 09:50 AM, said:

In any 'Trade' being made between mechs one is putting their damage out there, then twisting and turning back in to cover.

That the IS can do this by .25 - .5 even .75 seconds faster on most laser platforms means that they are applying the effective damage on point FIRST and then moving to survive FIRST and spreading / avoiding completely damage from the clan lasers.

They also did this at a lower heat cost.

That you still don't understand this, is why you fail so often in matches.

If damage per duration is in favor of the Clans, the Clans put out at least the same damage face to face (while the IS mech is firing at them) as the IS mech does before the IS mech turns, but then the Clan mech continues to put additional damage out (maybe to same or maybe to different components) because its duration is longer. Read the OP's post. *ETA: this is of course, you are assuming both mechs are firing at the same start time. If you assume the Clan mech waits to fire until after the IS mech fires, well then, yes, you are right, the one who fires first will apply damage first. I don't know how that is relevant to the discussion...

Your argument relies on some weighty assumptions that are more than a little bit biased.

Now, when you factor in quirks, some mechs may outperform others, but you are looking at case by case examples and cannot draw any conclusions on anything other than those specific cases.

This thread was about Clan vs IS laser weapon balance, not quirk balance, or geometry balance, or mech class balance. You and Lily are jumping on the bandwagon trying to draw every other aspect of the game into this except for the one aspect that this thread focused on - it's called strawman, and it wins you no points in actual debate.

The numbers speak for themselves - you two have nothing to stand on, and I can't believe you can even argue this point (maybe you are in fact not arguing it, because you are bringing everything else but the kitchen sink into it).

Edited by Dino Might, 16 September 2015 - 10:09 AM.

[Erkki]

Yeah but even the best of the quirks only bring (a single) laser weapon to on par with Clantech. TDR-5SS. Which means even in best case IS' advantage is just getting always endo and associated free tonnage and sometimes perhaps HP locations or hiboxes. In the best case, for the superquirked mechs.

Lugh: another failure to understand a fairly simple concept and another ad hominem.

[ColdPsyker1]

The fact that both sides to this debate can reasonably infer completely different conclusions from the same data seems to me that that means the sides are relatively well-balanced (note use of the word relatively, outliers will always exist and nothing is ever "completely" balanced).

There are always 3 sides to every story- your side, their side, and the truth.