106 replies to this topic

[Revis Volek]

InRev, on 15 September 2015 - 06:21 AM, said:

You really aren't getting it, are you? The OP's point is that over the duration of an IS laser weapon, a clan laser still does the same amount of damage, if not more. For example, over the course of an IS ML's burn time (.9 seconds) a clan laser will still do 6.14 damage and at longer range. In other words, you can twist away after the equivalent duration and still do as much damage.

Now there are two counter-arguments: quirks and heat.

Regarding the first, rumor has it that weapon quirks are going to be scaled down significantly after the rebalance. This affects IS lasers much more heavily than Clan versions, meaning we will likely no longer see IS beam lasers with pulse durations.

The second (heat) is a bit more subtle. Generally speaking, heat isn't even as big an issue as people make it out to be for two reasons: 1) Clan mechs tend to carry more DHS than equivalent IS mechs due to superior Endo and Ferro, and DHS that take up fewer slots. For example, a laser crow usually carries 21 to 23 DHS while a sparky Can only cram in 16 to 18; 2) sustained DPS isn't as important as pure burst, since brawling is dead at high tier and people can usually drop back into cover to cool off. This is where those extra heat sinks come into play, since they will increase your heat cap quite a bit, freeing up extra alphas.

What remains, then, is that Clan weapons still retain a notable range advantage, thus explaining why they are still the go-to equipment at comp level.

I'm well aware of that and im glad you took (however long) out of you day to write stuff 99% of us already know...the OP said IS doesn't have a Burn Time advantage...he is wrong.


Nothing else you are talking about applies to this conversations.....Also the numbers look good when you compare them 1:1 but lets compare the top thing after 4 shots shall we?

4 shots with the IS Sm Laser will take 1.0 seconds less time then 4 shots will with a clan laser....even know its only .25 seconds shorter and the dmg is the same per laser you can get 4 off in 1/4 less time then i can. So please explain to me how that is no an advatage.

You dont seem to get it...we dont die after one fire of lasers. We shoot the lasers multiple time and that is when the difference piles up. I am not really complaining about it im just stating how wrong you and the OP are IS need to be balanced with clams....hence these conversations i guess.

But you can get all whiny and act like a 30 year old baby if you want....maths is hard i guess.

[Erkki]

IS-SL damage is not equal to cERSL's. Even with the burn time accounted for, cERSL has range, DPS and DPH advantage.

How difficult is it to look up the stats?

[Lily from animove]

kapusta11, on 15 September 2015 - 06:33 AM, said:

My PSR is higher than yours and thus you're wrong!

What? Just practicing.

Erkki, on 15 September 2015 - 06:34 AM, said:

Then use cMPL instead of cERML if you feel the last 0,2 s of the beam duration goes wasted. You lose some of the range and dps/invested mass advantage but hey, cant always have everything.

Thats twice the tonnage and unless in a real ehavy mech you can not afford this, because then everything gets still heatinefficent by heatdissipation. however I was using a 8 CMPL dire and it was a ton of fun an success, I should be less lazy and try that build with the new dires pods and make it a 12CMPL build. or 2CLPL and 10CMPL.

[Erkki]

Yes, its twice the tonnage, but 24% higher DPS, 14% better heat efficiency and 67% of beam duration. DPS is still almost double to the ISML's, range is 60 m better, duration shorter, heat efficiency better so why not use them if you want to avoid ER lasers' beam duration?

[ColourfulConfetti]

Oh god, another " I did the math thus my poorly constructed argument on balance is correct." Well I hate to break it to you spread sheet warrior but going by pure mathematics the gauss sucks, and clan autocannons are top meta along with the ac2s.

The IS pulse lasers and large lasers give the enemy a lot less time to torso twist. That simple fact makes them a more favorable weapon. This is doubly true of IS pulse lasers. A good player is not going to stand there and let you inflict full damage on them with lasers. They're going to torso twist and spread out the damage as much as possible. The only thing preventing the IS lasers from being superior is down to clan tech being lighter and less slot hungry. Clan mechs can mount more firepower/heatsinks to compensate for the abysmal burn time and extra heat. By themselves,I'd say IS lasers are superior damage dealers at the expense of range. Unless of course your opponent doesn't torso twist and just takes it. This also makes IS lasers a better defensive weapon, as you're sooner able to torso twist yourself due to faster burn time.

Edited by PalmaRoma, 15 September 2015 - 07:18 AM.

[Screech]

Laser duration does not provide any benefit to those who only face tank that is true. But for others it is an advantage. An IS large laser will do 9 points of damage over a second compared to 7.3 for the clan. It will also do this damage for less heat as well as a faster recycle time.

Some people will be able to utilize these advantages to overcome the clans advantage of range but many can not. It then comes down to how you asses the blame.

[LordBraxton]

Lord0fHats, on 14 September 2015 - 04:39 PM, said:

Because cover is important in MWO. Being able to shoot out your damage and shuffle back to cover faster is an advantage.

you arent really reading the OP then

you can elect to start moving\twsiting before your lasers are even done firing, and STILL do as much pinpoint as IS. At much longer range. OR you can use the whole duration for super damage at longer range.

IS mechs are garbage at poking compared to clans, largely due to range.

[Lily from animove]

Erkki, on 15 September 2015 - 07:01 AM, said:

Yes, its twice the tonnage, but 24% higher DPS, 14% better heat efficiency and 67% of beam duration. DPS is still almost double to the ISML's, range is 60 m better, duration shorter, heat efficiency better so why not use them if you want to avoid ER lasers' beam duration?

because on mech slike the ADR and MLX or even ACH this means losing an entire DHS which in reverse totally screws up its heat efficiency. As said, it only works on some mechs where the tonnage allows it.

That is also the reason why the entire IS vs CLantech discussion is pointless because nerfing clantech becaus 3 clanners cna do it better is just going to make the dead clanmechs even more dead. Blance needs to happen on chassis bassis, and PGI probably should take heatdissipation quirks into account to create a chance for to hot small mechs catch up with the bigger ones. That way the udnertonnaged clanners and IS mechs or those wiht not enough slots for additional DHS can catch up that gap.

LordBraxton, on 15 September 2015 - 07:16 AM, said:

you arent really reading the OP then

you can elect to start moving\twsiting before your lasers are even done firing, and STILL do as much pinpoint as IS. At much longer range. OR you can use the whole duration for super damage at longer range.

this means you heat up faster with havign done less damage for the heat produced, thats inefficient.

LordBraxton, on 15 September 2015 - 07:16 AM, said:

IS mechs are garbage at poking compared to clans, largely due to range.

OH WOW are they? JACKPOT!!! IS mechs advantage is keep firing nto allwoign the clanmechs to cool down, and every map in MOW so far allows enough cover to even get in ISML range. But majority of IS palyers does not even understand this, and so they never even try to play that advantage. and thats why they lose so often, they try clanner gameplay for clanner optimised gameplay. And this will always fail.

[Erkki]

Sorry but I still cant quote. Got bad browsers or add-ons or something.

But. The bad IS mechs like Vindi and TBT are already just as dead as the worst Clan mechs like Myst Lynx. Changing just the weapons will do little to nothing when it comes to mech balance. Even if Clan lasers were reduced in effectiveness way or another (all but cERLL need that IMHO) the good and bad mechs would remain the same. And Dakkawolves would laugh more than ever.

About cMPL weighting more than ISML: as I said, you STILL get more per invested unit of mass. For less hardpoints even! Have you ever, as a clanner considered not using all hardpoints, perhaps dropping a weapon for better heat efficiency, as you'll out-alpha IS any way? Why is overheating quicker an issue if your damage output even within beam duration is relative to heat still greater, and as a cherry on top of the cake you retain the all-but-meaningless range advantage?

Not being strictly better in every single area of performance doesn't mean you still wouldn't have the advantage. And quirks don't help enough as I noted in TDR-5SS quirked MPL vs. cMPL comparison a page or two back.

[Aresye]

Ultimatum X, on 15 September 2015 - 05:44 AM, said:

We can draw conclusions.

When the top competitive teams have zero restrictions in creating their drop decks, they are full of Clan mechs like DWFs, TBRs (even with their "negative" quirks), HBRs, Stormcrows all with Lasers or Lasers + Gauss.


They are not full of IS mechs with positive quirks.



That's the only conclusion anyone rational needs.

But that's not a rational conclusion because competitive teams do in fact utilize mechs like the STK-4N and WVR-6K quite often, and Clan mechs have other advantages (ex: Clan XL) that make them a better choice for competitive play.

Yellonet, on 15 September 2015 - 01:36 AM, said:

To be clear about the point I was trying to make: Even though IS lasers have shorter duration, that is in itself not an advantage as on average IS and Clan lasers do about the same damage for the same duration.

If damage per equal duration was truly equal (which it is not), then I shouldn't see quirked IS mechs able to interrupt (what should be) a killing shot against them.

In case you don't know what I'm talking about, I'm talking about 2 cored mechs facing against each other. The Clan mech fires first for the kill, the IS mech reacts and fires second, but due to the faster duration, kills the Clan player first, which instantly interrupts their beam duration, leaving the IS player alive.

[Lily from animove]

Erkki, on 15 September 2015 - 08:02 AM, said:

Sorry but I still cant quote. Got bad browsers or add-ons or something.

But. The bad IS mechs like Vindi and TBT are already just as dead as the worst Clan mechs like Myst Lynx. Changing just the weapons will do little to nothing when it comes to mech balance. Even if Clan lasers were reduced in effectiveness way or another (all but cERLL need that IMHO) the good and bad mechs would remain the same. And Dakkawolves would laugh more than ever.

About cMPL weighting more than ISML: as I said, you STILL get more per invested unit of mass. For less hardpoints even! Have you ever, as a clanner considered not using all hardpoints, perhaps dropping a weapon for better heat efficiency, as you'll out-alpha IS any way? Why is overheating quicker an issue if your damage output even within beam duration is relative to heat still greater, and as a cherry on top of the cake you retain the all-but-meaningless range advantage?

Not being strictly better in every single area of performance doesn't mean you still wouldn't have the advantage. And quirks don't help enough as I noted in TDR-5SS quirked MPL vs. cMPL comparison a page or two back.

the amount of dps is the heattreshold + generated coolant, and by this CERML exceed the CMPL in most cases due to the additional DHS you can use. Also, the usual timber laservomit mech does not fill all hardpoints, after they increased CERML heat by 1 th they are 4CERML 2 LPL instead of 5 CERML + 4LPL. that was alrady doen to oprimise dps.

quirks help to change advantages at specifc characteristics, but many palyers ar enot able to see those, even less do they get the grip to play them.

Edited by Lily from animove, 15 September 2015 - 09:47 AM.

[Erkki]

Weapon DPS and DPH, not mech. There's a difference there.

[Mister Blastman]

Your comparison is incomplete, OP, and it fails to capture the most important factor...

Heat Per Second.

If you examine Heat Per Second you will see that IS 'mechs have a significantly better Heat Per Second ratio and this is where the advantage comes in. Inner Sphere 'mechs can keep firing and pumping out damage whereas Clan 'mechs overheat faster.

Also, with quirks, the shorter burn times are shortened even further which means less face time and more poke time, both of which add up quickly provided the engagements occur in similar range.

[Roadkill]

It's still an advantage because it's easier to take several short potshots than it is to hold a beam on target for a long time.

Think of it this way, if you could have an infinitely fast PPC (read: no travel time) would you ever use a laser again even if all of their damages were doubled?

No, you wouldn't. Because the instant-hit PPC would always do all of its damage to the same location.

I'd rather mount a pair of 1-second duration lasers than a single 2-second duration double damage laser. I might even keep the pair of 1-second lasers over a single 2-second triple damage laser.

The Clans own range, which is their real advantage. And it's a strong advantage, which is why the IS's heat efficiency and duration advantages aren't more obvious.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Mcgral18, on 14 September 2015 - 03:07 PM, said:

Blame Paul.

we do.

[Ultimax]

Aresye Kerensky, on 15 September 2015 - 08:09 AM, said:

But that's not a rational conclusion because competitive teams do in fact utilize mechs like the STK-4N and WVR-6K quite often, and Clan mechs have other advantages (ex: Clan XL) that make them a better choice for competitive play.

I see them use those when there are restrictions on chassis, it's been extremely rare to see them when it's unrestricted.



I'm not sure how this is even a conversation at this point.


Clan lasers are overall superior, with better synergy among the various types of lasers.


You can either save tonnage through the raw higher damage they deal, and better range and then invest that into more DHS.

Or you can go for enormous alphas at mid-range that IS mechs simply can't compete with - primarily due to the ability to skirt around Ghost Heat by combining ER Meds with CLPL or CERLLAS, or just boating ER Meds for that matter.


Clan lasers can either be used to play at superior range for high heat, or you can opt to fight at shorter ranges but at massive damage/heat efficiency (CERSLAS, CSPL).

[Yellonet]

I've made an image to show graphically the difference in duration for two different pair of lasers.

All of this is under the presumption that the fight happens within the effective range of the IS lasers, that hit rate is 100% and the follow up shots are taken as soon as possible.

In the first comparison we have IS medium lasers vs. Clan ER medium laser, the difference in duration is not very big, so in this case I would say that the Clan laser has the advantage because It will take quite a few "rounds" of fire for the IS laser to pick up the difference in damage output, and by then the fight is most likely over.

Also consider that this is one(1) laser only, given that both mechs have equal amounts of weapons, the higher that amount, the bigger the lead in damage for the Clan variant.

As an example we can take 4xML vs. 4xC.ERML
After 4.8 seconds the IS mech has fired two alphas for a total of 40 dmg.
After 5.28 seconds (less than half a second later) the Clan mech has fired two alphas for a total of 56 dmg.




Go here for full size image:
http://img.photobuck...w3.png~original

When it comes to the Large Pulse Lasers, the difference in duration is larger and here the IS variant gets an advantage earlier in the fight, provided that the mech survives the more powerful alpha of the Clan mech. The IS weapon has a higher DED value and therefore allows for earlier twisting and spreading of damage, and for each alpha the shooting becomes more out of sync which should give the IS mech an advantage.

3xLPL vs. 3x C.LPL

After 4.59 seconds the IS mech has fired two alphas for a total of 66 dmg.
After 5,49 seconds the Clan mech has fired two alphas for a total of 78 dmg.


So as I said in the OP it's pretty equal on average, some advantage to IS, some to Clan.
But this does not take into account the huge range advantage that the Clans have, nor the weapon weight advantage. Yes, yes, Clan weapons are hotter, but that hardly matters if the enemy is already dead after a couple of alphas.

[Ultimax]

Yellonet, on 15 September 2015 - 11:46 AM, said:

3xLPL vs. 3x C.LPL

After 4.59 seconds the IS mech has fired two alphas for a total of 66 dmg.
After 5,49 seconds the Clan mech has fired two alphas for a total of 78 dmg.

Those two weapons only share the name "pulse laser" in common, and little else (they are also blue).


In function and actual gameplay, they have different analogs.


2x CLPL vs. 3x LLAS
12 tons vs. 15 tons
600m range vs. 450m range
20 heat vs. 21 heat
26 damage vs. 27 damage
1.12s burn vs. 1s burn
1.3 damage per heat vs. 1.285 damage per heat
2.16 damage per ton vs. 1.8 damage per ton


3x CMPL vs. 2x IS LPL
6 tons vs. 14 tons
330m range vs. 365m range
18 heat vs. 14 heat
24 damage vs. 22 damage
0.85s burn vs. 0.67s burn
1.33 damage per heat vs. 1.57 damage per heat
4 damage per ton vs. 1.57 damage per ton


Those are the better comparisons, the more accurate ones.

Overall, the IS has a few tiny numerical advantages but the clan loadouts win big in others.

3 tons savings for the CLPL loadout, with an extra 150m range.

A whopping EIGHT TONS savings for the CMPL loadout vs. the IS LPL loadout dealing a tremendous FOUR damage per ton of weapon investment. Sure the IS LPL has a small 35m range advantage and they are very efficient on heat. But with that enormous tonnage savings, the CMPL are definitely a very powerful competitor.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 15 September 2015 - 12:00 PM.

[Lily from animove]

Yellonet, on 15 September 2015 - 11:46 AM, said:

I've made an image to show graphically the difference in duration for two different pair of lasers.

All of this is under the presumption that the fight happens within the effective range of the IS lasers, that hit rate is 100% and the follow up shots are taken as soon as possible.

In the first comparison we have IS medium lasers vs. Clan ER medium laser, the difference in duration is not very big, so in this case I would say that the Clan laser has the advantage because It will take quite a few "rounds" of fire for the IS laser to pick up the difference in damage output, and by then the fight is most likely over.

Also consider that this is one(1) laser only, given that both mechs have equal amounts of weapons, the higher that amount, the bigger the lead in damage for the Clan variant.

As an example we can take 4xML vs. 4xC.ERML
After 4.8 seconds the IS mech has fired two alphas for a total of 40 dmg.
After 5.28 seconds (less than half a second later) the Clan mech has fired two alphas for a total of 56 dmg.




Go here for full size image:
http://img.photobuck...w3.png~original

When it comes to the Large Pulse Lasers, the difference in duration is larger and here the IS variant gets an advantage earlier in the fight, provided that the mech survives the more powerful alpha of the Clan mech. The IS weapon has a higher DED value and therefore allows for earlier twisting and spreading of damage, and for each alpha the shooting becomes more out of sync which should give the IS mech an advantage.

3xLPL vs. 3x C.LPL

After 4.59 seconds the IS mech has fired two alphas for a total of 66 dmg.
After 5,49 seconds the Clan mech has fired two alphas for a total of 78 dmg.


So as I said in the OP it's pretty equal on average, some advantage to IS, some to Clan.
But this does not take into account the huge range advantage that the Clans have, nor the weapon weight advantage. Yes, yes, Clan weapons are hotter, but that hardly matters if the enemy is already dead after a couple of alphas.

but the opponent isn't becasue he coudl twist your damage away, while your chart implies he fully laoded it into the same location. Also your chart does not show what happens when the heatlimit is reached and the clanner can not fire his lasers anymore, while the IS mech can continue. its again, half the truth being shown. gain until the moment the IS advantage jkciks in. If most IS pilots have just this short kind of a planning interval no wonder they fail to take advantage.

[Satan n stuff]

Ultimatum X, on 15 September 2015 - 05:44 AM, said:

We can draw conclusions.

When the top competitive teams have zero restrictions in creating their drop decks, they are full of Clan mechs like DWFs, TBRs (even with their "negative" quirks), HBRs, Stormcrows all with Lasers or Lasers + Gauss.


They are not full of IS mechs with positive quirks.



That's the only conclusion anyone rational needs.

So this has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that those particular mechs all have god-tier hitboxes and/or hardpoints? Of course it does, because if it didn't have anything to do with that you'd be naming all the clan mechs and not just a handful.
Hitboxes and hardpoints do not affect laser duration, which is the topic at hand. Those mechs are completely irrelevant to the discussion.

Edited by Satan n stuff, 15 September 2015 - 01:31 PM.