86 replies to this topic

[kesmai]

hmm. had a match on hpg 20 mins ago. went great. we where up 5 kills. i watched the enemy manage to gather their mechs and start a counterclockwise nascar. i politely (and i mean that) asked my team to move 2 times on chat and 3 times over voip to MOVE.

my team did not move. not an inch. they all decided that it is time for turretwarrior online. we lost 12:8.

i prefer a bad nascar over that any time.

Edited by kesmai, 16 September 2015 - 09:00 AM.

[lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol]

kesmai, on 16 September 2015 - 09:00 AM, said:

hmm. had a match on hpg 20 mins ago. went great. we where up 5 kills. i watched the enemy manage to gather their mechs and start a counterclockwise nascar. i politely (and i mean that) asked my team to move 2 times on chat and 3 times over voip to MOVE.

my team did not move. not an inch. they all decided that it is time for turretwarrior online. we lost 12:8.

i prefer a bad nascar over that any time.

Then here ya go.

[Screech]

Nascar is a symptom of lights rushing to get a stray assault that the other team has ditched in pursuit of the other teams assults that the initial lights have ditched.

Want to stop Nascar? Drive your lights to your assaults it really is that simple. Of course you can then get screwed over if your assaults then just sit their idling till they can put their mechs in reverse at the first enemy contact.

[1453 R]

Glegh.

'NASCAR" happens because getting the drop on the enemy wins games. If you can find and eliminate a mispositioned or isolated enemy, especially a fatbro, then you've earned a nice edge for your team. Conversely, if you yourself are found by the enemy while out of position or isolated and get yourself clipped before you can deal a hundred damage, you are Not Credit To Team.

People want to get the drop on the enemy, and they don't want to get dropped on. Both of those objectives are best served by moving - you can't get the drop on your enemy while stationary, and being stationary for any length of time exponentially increases the odds of getting dropped on. Sitting put yields the initiative to the enemy, and that's a thing you shouldn't do without a very, very good reason. Thus, the only other option is to move, generally as a pack to reinforce the don't-drop-me-bro thing, and try to find the enemy players who are too dense and/or fat to keep up with the pain train.

If your side has the faster overall composition, 'NASCAR' is actually a pretty great way to win games. if your twigweights can rein in their exuberance enough to only be a couple-odd hundred meters in front of the main body, you can fall on the enemy's slower/derpier units in force and crush them before the enemy force has a chance to recognize the threat, reorganize, and push back. At that point the enemy's likely strung out and you can just chew them up like a breadcrumb trail to Victory.

If you don't have the faster overall composition, you're in trouble - but you have no way of knowing that. Especially since 'faster overall composition' doesn't always mean faster 'Mechs. I've seen Dire Whales outmaneuver Battlemasters because the Whale's jammed his throttle to 100% the instant the dropship lifts off, heading straight to where he knows he's going to need to be at full speed, while the Battlemaster fidgets at spawn for fifteen seconds before heading at half speed to the general team grouping, stopping frequently to decide if there's a different spot he'd rather be. THAT is what gets you killed in a NASCAR race, not the mere existence of Dire Whales on your team.

There is nothing in all of MWO I hate more than indecisive fatbros. You're huge, ponderous, covered in guns, and slow as hell. YOU. DO. NOT. HAVE. THE LUXURY. OF INDECISIVENESS! Pick where you're going and freaking go there, as fast as your chubby fifteen-ton legs can carry you, and if the group's not going there of their own accord, use your words and tell them to form on you. if they don't do that? Adjust course if you can. If you can't? Then find a rock to brace your back against and prepare to Custer as hard as you can, and console yourself with the fact that you tried your hardest to get your team to not be a bunch of whackos.

They'll lose, but that loss wasn't your fault - if, if, if, IF you hustled your hams off Go as quickly as you could and did everything you could manage to coordinate your team and get where you needed to be. You can win NASCAR as a Whale pilot - but only if you start playing the second the match kicks off and don't stop for nothing along the way.

[MischiefSC]

People Nascar for the same reason they think lrms are great and that terribad builds are okay and splitting up in CW is ever a good idea.

"This one time, in band camp" rule.

One time they had a good game doing something utterly situational or lucky so they do it all the time.

If you are smart you all stick with your slowest guy. Push aggressively, don't camp. If they have good cover or a kill box set up then you rotate as a group. When the fight moves from poking to mid-range/brawl, then you flank in fast mechs, catching outliers in crossfire and destroy any attempts at a firing line.

Instead people fun into unknown areas, abandon their best firepower to die and just hope to get lucky. Because bads are bad.

[1453 R]

Heh, and sitting in your spawns saying "THIS IS WHERE WE HOLD THEM" is better?

Let's be honest, Mischief - dumbness is what loses games, not NASCAR. Whales who figure that any sort of running battle means they're automatically dead and just quit on the spot lose games. People too slow/confused to turn around and rush back to defend their rear elements when the enemy finds them, or rear elements unwilling to shout properly for help when they get caught out, lose games.

You can be as derogatory as you like, but all 'NASCAR' is, is a running battle instead of a stationary one. Running battles have different rules, but they do still have rules. Ignore them and lose, or learn them and win. If you know it's going to happen anyways - and by now everyone knows that NASCAR is going to happen - but still neglect to figure out how to win those fights...well, that's on you, not the game.

[MischiefSC]

1453 R, on 16 September 2015 - 12:32 PM, said:

Heh, and sitting in your spawns saying "THIS IS WHERE WE HOLD THEM" is better?

Let's be honest, Mischief - dumbness is what loses games, not NASCAR. Whales who figure that any sort of running battle means they're automatically dead and just quit on the spot lose games. People too slow/confused to turn around and rush back to defend their rear elements when the enemy finds them, or rear elements unwilling to shout properly for help when they get caught out, lose games.

You can be as derogatory as you like, but all 'NASCAR' is, is a running battle instead of a stationary one. Running battles have different rules, but they do still have rules. Ignore them and lose, or learn them and win. If you know it's going to happen anyways - and by now everyone knows that NASCAR is going to happen - but still neglect to figure out how to win those fights...well, that's on you, not the game.

No, a running battle would involve knowing your team and the enemy and making a conscious decision to fight, as a team, on the move because it is advantageous.

That isn't what's being discussed. Nascar is abandoning you're teammates in the hopes you'll get lucky and catch more of them alone than they catch of yours. It is, without question, a stupid decision. It's absolutely no different than taking a lrm boat xl stalker in the hopes you get lucky and the other team is even stupider than your decision is.

Nascar is abandoning strategy in favor of luck. You abandon any conscious control of the map or even general team strategy in favor of banking on the other team being even stupider than yourself. What is embarrassing is how often that works out-ish.

Even a half considered and poorly executed strategy beats nascar. I say that as someone who runs fast mechs. Nascar is people in lights/fast mediums wanting to pick up a hopeful quick kill before they lose the match. It is a fundamental example of people playing this game badly.

A fast flanking push by an organized team or a running fight to string the other team out is a good strategy. I've been a party to both many times in group queue and cw. That isn't nascar. Calling nascar something like that is akin to calling a Big Wheel a touring bike.

[Event Horizon]

NASCAR is better than camping one spot, not moving the entire match and losing every time it happens.

Caustic Valley is the NASCAR track if you ask me, go around and around until you win, if you stay in one spot you lose. I look forward to it being redone.

[Khobai]

Quote

NASCAR is better than camping one spot

sortve.. when mechs were slower, caustic was often played by teams camping one spot on either side of the caldera. because without fast mechs it was hard to push into the other team fast enough to completely overwhelm a flank. but after the average speed of mechs was increased it made flanking a much stronger gameplan on caustic. so teams started running in circles around the caldera to try and flank while avoiding being flanked.

NASCARING is mostly caused by all the fast clan mechs that have been released in the last year or so. The average speed of mechs has increased by like 20kph. Slowing mechs down by removing speed tweak is something PGI really needs to look at. Or maybe have like three different pilot skill trees where speed tweak is only available in one of the skill trees and means giving up something equally good in the other skill trees to get.

Nascaring in caustic valley could also probably be reduced somewhat if there were more cover elements inside the caldera. Like if there were rock columns and stalagtites sticking up in the center of the caldera that you could hide behind. If more straight-up fighting occured in the center thered be less nascaring. And like I said before, slowing down mechs would help too of course.

Edited by Khobai, 16 September 2015 - 02:16 PM.

[1453 R]

What gets me about this whole spittle-inducing rage over 'NASCAAAAAAR " is that, not too terribly long ago, people were begging for more mobile battles. Stationary poptarts ruled the roost with an iron fist composed of AC5 fingers and PPC thumbs, and trying to engage in a moving battle of any sort tended to get you dead.

Now? People will lose their everlovin' minds if you don't stand in one place and guard the Dire Whales. It'd be funny if it wasn't so sad. They all expect me to just...stand there. Don't move, don't rove, don't poke, don't skirmish - even though I'm typically in Shadow Cats, Stormcrows, Cauldron-Borns, or other things with hefty engines that don't take stationary fire well at all but really shine when fighting mobile engagements. Doesn't matter. Stand there, in one place, and guard the Whale from those filthy cheating lights so that he may lay waste to the entire enemy team.

Mmmm...no thanks. I'll stick to moving, thanks. I'll try and stay within support range of you, but I'm not going to let the enemy catch me with my feeties firmly planted if I can even remotely help it. That's not what I'm there for.

[Mazzyplz]

1453 R, on 16 September 2015 - 02:23 PM, said:

What gets me about this whole spittle-inducing rage over 'NASCAAAAAAR " is that, not too terribly long ago, people were begging for more mobile battles. Stationary poptarts ruled the roost with an iron fist composed of AC5 fingers and PPC thumbs, and trying to engage in a moving battle of any sort tended to get you dead.

Now? People will lose their everlovin' minds if you don't stand in one place and guard the Dire Whales. It'd be funny if it wasn't so sad. They all expect me to just...stand there. Don't move, don't rove, don't poke, don't skirmish - even though I'm typically in Shadow Cats, Stormcrows, Cauldron-Borns, or other things with hefty engines that don't take stationary fire well at all but really shine when fighting mobile engagements. Doesn't matter. Stand there, in one place, and guard the Whale from those filthy cheating lights so that he may lay waste to the entire enemy team.

Mmmm...no thanks. I'll stick to moving, thanks. I'll try and stay within support range of you, but I'm not going to let the enemy catch me with my feeties firmly planted if I can even remotely help it. That's not what I'm there for.

this is exactly right, nascar could only be developed as a strategy after nerf of jumpjets, really

[Brody319]

Simple put your Assaults and a few heavies smack dab to form an offensive line. Then send some light heavies, mediums, and lights around to flank the enemy assaults.
Then both sides move in and crush the remaining mechs.

[SolarCleric]

Armored Yokai, on 15 September 2015 - 11:10 PM, said:

Why nascar's even a sport is my question

It would be awesome if they would just weaponize the cars!



Now back to the topic at hand:

Even though we are in giant mechs we actually fight just like they did in the revolutionary war.

1. Team A: finds the enemy
2. Team A: creates (ideally) a gun-line towards the enemy to maximize firepower.
3. Team B: sees and attempts to evade said Team gun-line by flanking: to limit overall damage and bring more fire power to bear on one or two enemy targets, hoping to bring them down more easily with superior numbers.
4. Team A: sees enemy attempting to flank the line and counter-flanks = nascar (one big circle race).


Of course if we get some "rambos" (and we always do) that will at least temporarily stop the nascar action until they're are picked off. If team A or B destroys enough rambo types...they will gain a big enough advantage that instead of flanking they can use their superior numbers to charge the enemy gun-line.

Any questions?

Edited by SolarCleric, 16 September 2015 - 03:01 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Camping is just as bad. The aggressive team wins most of the time. You push and keep pushing.

The point though is that you push *together*. Nascar is just stringing out, racing in the hopes the other team was as bad as you and their slow mechs scattered. If none of that is true you just lost the match for your team.

Camping also tends to guarantee a loss, toy are just waiting for the other team to roll you. You push and keep pressure on. A retreating team is a slaughter waiting to happen. That is what makes nascar so bad, both teams are running away and hoping they run away better than the other team.

[1453 R]

If we're supposed to push *together*, then Jimmy Threenuts in his hexa-quack Dakka Whale over in Charlie Lance had better be slamming his throttle to the stops the moment boot hits dirt, and he'd better not let off until he's regrouped and can make the push.

If you make your best speed, immediately, to where you need to be and don't drop off, doing your best to remain with the group, then I'll do whatever I reasonably can to keep you covered and offer you support. But if you faff around, idle for twenty seconds, and stop to type "don't leave me behind" while averaging thirty klicks an hour in some random direction that is not the nearest concentration of Cool Ranch Doritos, then I will not shed the world's tiniest tear when you get eaten by Cheetahs.

Clearly you weren't going to be much help anyways.

These discussions always seem to end up as thinly-veiled vent threads for assault pilots to castigate the rest of MWO for not subjugating themselves completely to the needs of sub-50kph bloated gunbags, but frankly? You guys are usually just as much at fault as the overeager speedies rushing to their doom, and only those fatbro pilots willing to admit it and combat the tendency to spend ten minutes finding the fight are going to benefit from my support.

[MischiefSC]

Depends on the map and situation. Some maps are more forgiving of stinging out than others. The reality though is that ol' threenuts there, idiot or not, is a big chunk of your teams tonnage. Not that you're required to do anyone any favors but make your tactical decisions based on what's going to win. Abandoning anyone slower than 75 kph is a tactically stupid idea. I can say for 100% certain that a dire on alpha drop location wI'll never get to catch up, regardless of what he does. Same with most mauler builds, not if the team doesn't bunch up.

Nascar is abandoning you're teammates in the hope the other team did the same.

[1453 R]

And if escorting Jimmy Threenuts, who spent twenty seconds at match start standing stock still while he dithered with something else, then started vacillating about where to go and averaged half his actual top speed getting somewhere, gets the team caught out in a dismal spot by an enemy team that actually had their junk together, that 'considerable chunk of the team's tonnage' is directly and solely responsible for the team's loss.

It's why I hate Dire Whales. Well, allied Dire Whales. Gimme allied Warhawks every single time. Whales tend to be driven by people who hate moving and feel like they're entitled to dictate the location of the battle by dint of having fifty tons of guns, and invariable they want the location of the battle to be "my spawn point." They cannot seem to comprehend the enormous value of Hustling Their Freaking Hams and getting somewhere the enemy can't strike them to death or pound them with sniper fire.

But those Warhawk guys? Given the Warhawk's dismal reputation, most Warhawk folks are vets too stubborn to give them up, and they know what to do with 71kph. They're not remotely as devastating as Whales, but I don't have to baby them, or scream at them to get the hell moving already.

Heh...you don't see Jimmy Threenuts in a Warhawk.

[Deathlike]

*cue MWO loading circle*




I don't like NASCAR, but I don't hate it either.

The application of it is what's really bad, as people don't really think of when to apply and when not to apply it.

I actually love counterpushing into NASCAR... but like the actual reference... I prefer watching for the car crashes.

What happens is that many times, people don't know what to do as a proper countermeasure as the confusion is enough to cause the match to generally be over decisively.


Just because there's a tactic, doesn't mean there aren't holes to poke in it. The key thing about aggression is that you cannot be totally reckless. NASCAR is not a tactic that guarantees a win... it only serves to punish poorly conceived teamwork.. on both ends. That's all it does, but it's not a solution to actual tactics. It's only a basic enough tactics to promote "anything but static and stationary" teamplay, and to expect more from it is a bad idea.

Perhaps we'll find a better way for people to not cower. NASCAR is only good for its car crashes... so have at it.

[MischiefSC]

1453 R, on 16 September 2015 - 05:52 PM, said:

And if escorting Jimmy Threenuts, who spent twenty seconds at match start standing stock still while he dithered with something else, then started vacillating about where to go and averaged half his actual top speed getting somewhere, gets the team caught out in a dismal spot by an enemy team that actually had their junk together, that 'considerable chunk of the team's tonnage' is directly and solely responsible for the team's loss.

It's why I hate Dire Whales. Well, allied Dire Whales. Gimme allied Warhawks every single time. Whales tend to be driven by people who hate moving and feel like they're entitled to dictate the location of the battle by dint of having fifty tons of guns, and invariable they want the location of the battle to be "my spawn point." They cannot seem to comprehend the enormous value of Hustling Their Freaking Hams and getting somewhere the enemy can't strike them to death or pound them with sniper fire.

But those Warhawk guys? Given the Warhawk's dismal reputation, most Warhawk folks are vets too stubborn to give them up, and they know what to do with 71kph. They're not remotely as devastating as Whales, but I don't have to baby them, or scream at them to get the hell moving already.

Heh...you don't see Jimmy Threenuts in a Warhawk.

So you're talking about one guy who is lost. I'm not. That's not going nascar. That's 10 or 11 people together and one git getting lost, angering into lake pubbie.

Nascar, in the context here, is when everyone just runs right. You get 3 or 4 lights 1 click up from 2 fast mediums, who are a half click up from 3 or 4 stung out heavies and fast Assaults with your 2 biggest guys in the back trying to keep up. When the guys in back, who hit the ground running but only go 50 or so, get jumped everyone just leaves them to it just happy it isn't them.

2 guys left behind because they are stupid is one thing. Stinging your whole team out hoping to get lucky is just stupid.

[Rushmoar]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 15 September 2015 - 11:03 PM, said:

Guy asked me this on Crimson straight and I had no real answer for it. Why DOES one team run through the saddle and one team run through the city?

Why DO we NASCAR?

It comes down to map design. Stick a mountain right in the middle of a map. What do you expect? Look at others like Caustic Valley. The high ground is in the middle but it is too hot so we run around the sides. Also if you fight on the edges of this map you will just trap yourself there. No real allys to use to flea from the enemy or to sneak around because the enemy will spot you easily. So nascar it is. Also River City. PGI stuck a Base and a cap point too close to the Citadel so we still flock to it and nascar there most of the time as well.

Map design.