57 replies to this topic

[zareth]

Skadi, on 07 July 2012 - 03:11 PM, said:

the Arrows are liked because of there extreme range, ontop of that they hit VERY hard in 1 blow (2 missiles will put you in some trouble if your about to enter a firefight) also theres already command artillary, the arrows exsist in the BT universe as mech mounted weapons so imo no real reason to not include them in the game :\

No real reason to include them either. The whole 'extreme range' bit only adds to the reason it'd be more likely a called-in strike.
Anyway, it's basically an AC/20 with an AC/10 splash. Now that I think about that...if those were put in as a mech mounted weapon, they'd need some serious balancing beyond weight and expense..otherwise there'd be no reason to use an AC/20.

[Skadi]

zareth, on 07 July 2012 - 03:27 PM, said:

No real reason to include them either. The whole 'extreme range' bit only adds to the reason it'd be more likely a called-in strike.
Anyway, it's basically an AC/20 with an AC/10 splash. Now that I think about that...if those were put in as a mech mounted weapon, they'd need some serious balancing beyond weight and expense..otherwise there'd be no reason to use an AC/20.

your just gonna keep saying that no matter what arnt you?

[Damion Sparhawk]

Skadi, on 07 July 2012 - 03:08 PM, said:

Mech mounted Longtom aka the bane of anything that moves slow

they're also a bane on anything that likes to zip around in the shadow of a bigger mech and harass them ^.^

[Jakob Knight]

zareth, on 07 July 2012 - 03:27 PM, said:

No real reason to include them either. The whole 'extreme range' bit only adds to the reason it'd be more likely a called-in strike.
Anyway, it's basically an AC/20 with an AC/10 splash. Now that I think about that...if those were put in as a mech mounted weapon, they'd need some serious balancing beyond weight and expense..otherwise there'd be no reason to use an AC/20.

First off, the basic ARROW IV shot is an AoE effect that hits all over the target. Only the Guided ARROW round does concentrated damage, and we've already seen that much of the damage that is single-location in th TT game becomes spread out in MWO. So, even if Guided rounds are put in, there is no guarantee they will work as they have previously.

Second off, there -are- serious costs to mounting one in a mech. The launching system is huge, and takes up more criticals than are possible in a single location (15 criticals, I believe). That means the 'mech loses -alot- of internal space for a single weapons system that it can't employ by itself. Indeed, only one mech in this timeframe carries one, and that only has 5 shots. For the cost of that ARROW system, the mech could have had two LRM systems with more ammunition.

We'll have to see how its implemented in the game, but my instinct is that they will make it a spotted ballistic weapon that is unguided and relies on a spotter to have any chance of hitting anything that isn't right in front of the firing unit. Guided ARROW IV as seen in the TT is very unlikely due to a ) it's overpowering ability to kill without real countermeasures and b ) the coding that would have to be done.

Remember too...the one thing an ARROW IV unit has to fear is the Light mechs catching it, as that ARROW IV is probably going to be unusable at any range the firing unit can see on their own (similar to how LRMs become harmless within 200 meters). So, if you think there is an artillery unit on the enemy side, send a light unit to take it out, or use your own artillery to counter-battery fire.

Edited by Jakob Knight, 07 July 2012 - 08:15 PM.

[Tincan Nightmare]

Diomed, on 07 July 2012 - 02:59 PM, said:

No, absolutely not!

Do you like the sound of someone wrecking your mech from BVR (beyond visual range)? Do you really think its fun to be blasted to smithereens by some guy hiding safely in his base, or behind his base? Its bad enough they are allowing in-direct LRM fire, but at least LRMs have a similar range profile to other directfire weapons.

Artillery in World of Tanks works like the Arrove iV system, You can be one-shot, even in a very powerful tank, from some coward hiding in a bush at ranges that are several orders of magnitude greater than tank canons, It makes most players very angry because it is cheap. You can shoot at me but I can't shoot at you? How is this fair?

Don't give me the tired old line of, "its war, its not supposed to be fair." It is NOT war, it is a game and games are supposed to be fair. Any BVR weapons are not fair, they are not fun and they should not be in this game...EVER.

Actually the TAG has the range of a lg. laser so any unit spotting with it is going to be in weapon range of the target its painting unless it only carries med. lasers, SRM's, and an AC/20. I imagine the Arrow IV could be a command module, where a commander class calls for a round, while a member of his/her team spots a target with their TAG. Hit the unit painting you hard enough and he may lose his bead on you and make the round miss.

[MogCarns]

In the tabletop, you have four mechs or so to play with. The guy across the table from you is a friend. His deployment of an ArrowV is part of a larger, more complicated set of tactics. You can see his unit, unless you are using doubleblind rules. Losing a mech isn't traumatizing, and at least your buddy is enjoying himself.

In MWO, invisible damage from nowhere just killed you, fired from some internet jackass, and despite what everyone tells you, you are 80% sure it was some pimple face script kiddie using some kind of bug, exploit, or hack to make the shot.

In the very best case scenario, the ultimate mech on mech combat game just turned into a game where everyone refuses to move from the same four "artysafe" spots on the map, some occasional sniping happens, a snorefest develops, a few members of one side gets ancy, they move out, get obliterated, and then the more patient team roflstomps the side with ancy players 11 on 6. Every friggen match.

The game you want exists, it is called World of Tanks, and one of the biggest reasons people quit it is because of exactly what you want to include, because in your confused and internet naive mind of a child, you think the first paragraph is what what is going to happen.


If arty is included in MWO, I will pray every hour, on the hour, for the person that made that decision to be hit by a car, caught under the powertrain wheel, dragged for 40 feet, then to have the hit and run driver to speed away, burning rubber on their chest. However, I will pray for them to survive, because I want to the re-experience the entire occurance again, every single hour, for the next 50 years. Because the lamentations of Sisyphus just are not severe enough punishment for that failure of judgement.

To put it in simpleton, arty-supporter-can-understand-terms, I am against it.

[Tincan Nightmare]

MogCarns, on 07 July 2012 - 08:50 PM, said:

In the tabletop, you have four mechs or so to play with. The guy across the table from you is a friend. His deployment of an ArrowV is part of a larger, more complicated set of tactics. You can see his unit, unless you are using doubleblind rules. Losing a mech isn't traumatizing, and at least your buddy is enjoying himself.

In MWO, invisible damage from nowhere just killed you, fired from some internet jackass, and despite what everyone tells you, you are 80% sure it was some pimple face script kiddie using some kind of bug, exploit, or hack to make the shot.

In the very best case scenario, the ultimate mech on mech combat game just turned into a game where everyone refuses to move from the same four "artysafe" spots on the map, some occasional sniping happens, a snorefest develops, a few members of one side gets ancy, they move out, get obliterated, and then the more patient team roflstomps the side with ancy players 11 on 6. Every friggen match.

The game you want exists, it is called World of Tanks, and one of the biggest reasons people quit it is because of exactly what you want to include, because in your confused and internet naive mind of a child, you think the first paragraph is what what is going to happen.


If arty is included in MWO, I will pray every hour, on the hour, for the person that made that decision to be hit by a car, caught under the powertrain wheel, dragged for 40 feet, then to have the hit and run driver to speed away, burning rubber on their chest. However, I will pray for them to survive, because I want to the re-experience the entire occurance again, every single hour, for the next 50 years. Because the lamentations of Sisyphus just are not severe enough punishment for that failure of judgement.

To put it in simpleton, arty-supporter-can-understand-terms, I am against it.

Artillery is already in, its been listed as something commander classes can use and call in, along with drones and airstrikes. In BT artillery is just like a hit with a mech mounted weapon. A homing Arrow IV is like an AC/20 shot, while standard rounds (including those fired from Long Toms or Snipers) hit like an LRM volley, scattering damage across the target and any adjacent targets. Also as I already said, the TAG unit only has the range of a lg. laser, so it will be hard for someone to sit in one spot when a unit can start shelling them with LRM's from outside the range they can call in a homing missile.

[Damion Sparhawk]

MogCarns, on 07 July 2012 - 08:50 PM, said:

In the tabletop, you have four mechs or so to play with. The guy across the table from you is a friend. His deployment of an ArrowV is part of a larger, more complicated set of tactics. You can see his unit, unless you are using doubleblind rules. Losing a mech isn't traumatizing, and at least your buddy is enjoying himself.

In MWO, invisible damage from nowhere just killed you, fired from some internet jackass, and despite what everyone tells you, you are 80% sure it was some pimple face script kiddie using some kind of bug, exploit, or hack to make the shot.

In the very best case scenario, the ultimate mech on mech combat game just turned into a game where everyone refuses to move from the same four "artysafe" spots on the map, some occasional sniping happens, a snorefest develops, a few members of one side gets ancy, they move out, get obliterated, and then the more patient team roflstomps the side with ancy players 11 on 6. Every friggen match.

The game you want exists, it is called World of Tanks, and one of the biggest reasons people quit it is because of exactly what you want to include, because in your confused and internet naive mind of a child, you think the first paragraph is what what is going to happen.


If arty is included in MWO, I will pray every hour, on the hour, for the person that made that decision to be hit by a car, caught under the powertrain wheel, dragged for 40 feet, then to have the hit and run driver to speed away, burning rubber on their chest. However, I will pray for them to survive, because I want to the re-experience the entire occurance again, every single hour, for the next 50 years. Because the lamentations of Sisyphus just are not severe enough punishment for that failure of judgement.

To put it in simpleton, arty-supporter-can-understand-terms, I am against it.

simmer down saucy, the battletech title is waaaaay more developed than WoT which is why so many people get tired of people comparing them, even if everything goes perfectly, unless you're standing still and he manages a perfect bead on your back armor (and the missile comes from the same direction) chances are extraordinarily slim that it's going to one shot you, barring already having taken significant damage at the point of impact. Firstly, this weapon used in this manner is pretty much only going to be effective against very slow mediums heavy's and assault mech's, who have the armor to take a heavy hit and keep on trucking. At the absolute worst case scenario they'll hit an arm, explode some ammo and you'll lose that arm, but that's likely only one or two weapon systems, you're still kicking (metaphorically speaking) hurt yes, done? hell no, and now you not only know about the threat but you also probably have a really good idea which of your adversaries is carrying the paint, what's more, you can inform your team what you suspect and... he's either going to have to run for it or he's going to get annhialated leaving not one, but two mechs virtually useless on the field since your Arrow mech probably doesn't have a whole lot else going for it and even if it does, is probably to slow to bring much to bear rapidly.

[MogCarns]

Tincan Nightmare, on 07 July 2012 - 09:00 PM, said:

Artillery is already in, its been listed as something commander classes can use and call in, along with drones and airstrikes. In BT artillery is just like a hit with a mech mounted weapon. A homing Arrow IV is like an AC/20 shot, while standard rounds (including those fired from Long Toms or Snipers) hit like an LRM volley, scattering damage across the target and any adjacent targets. Also as I already said, the TAG unit only has the range of a lg. laser, so it will be hard for someone to sit in one spot when a unit can start shelling them with LRM's from outside the range they can call in a homing missile.

Are you seriously trying to obfuscate the issue with this lame set of bad analogies?

There is a major difference between a balanced-in class ability or perk and player controller mech mounted artillery.

Arrow5 is NOT like an AC/20. An AC/20 is a short ranged weapon with a linear shot package. Arrow5 is a VERY long range weapon, that weighs one more ton, takes up only a few more crit slots than an AC/20, and has a nice shoot-the-hell-over-all-those-damn-hills ability. As is, from the tabletop, the AC/20 became obsolete the moment ArrowV came out. However, the smaller size of the Gauss Rifle won out for regular mech use.

TAG's range is 15 in the tabletop. You don't have the foggiest clue of its range in MWO.

[Sean von Steinike]

Diomed, on 07 July 2012 - 02:59 PM, said:

No, absolutely not!

Do you like the sound of someone wrecking your mech from BVR (beyond visual range)? Do you really think its fun to be blasted to smithereens by some guy hiding safely in his base, or behind his base? Its bad enough they are allowing in-direct LRM fire, but at least LRMs have a similar range profile to other directfire weapons.

Artillery in World of Tanks works like the Arrove iV system, You can be one-shot, even in a very powerful tank, from some coward hiding in a bush at ranges that are several orders of magnitude greater than tank canons, It makes most players very angry because it is cheap. You can shoot at me but I can't shoot at you? How is this fair?

Don't give me the tired old line of, "its war, its not supposed to be fair." It is NOT war, it is a game and games are supposed to be fair. Any BVR weapons are not fair, they are not fun and they should not be in this game...EVER.

You sound like a small minded, one dimensional player that can't think of team play. It is COMPLETELY fair. That is what light scout mechs are for, to paint and find targets for the long range fire support mechs.

[Tincan Nightmare]

MogCarns, on 07 July 2012 - 09:18 PM, said:

Are you seriously trying to obfuscate the issue with this lame set of bad analogies?

There is a major difference between a balanced-in class ability or perk and player controller mech mounted artillery.

Arrow5 is NOT like an AC/20. An AC/20 is a short ranged weapon with a linear shot package. Arrow5 is a VERY long range weapon, that weighs one more ton, takes up only a few more crit slots than an AC/20, and has a nice shoot-the-hell-over-all-those-damn-hills ability. As is, from the tabletop, the AC/20 became obsolete the moment ArrowV came out. However, the smaller size of the Gauss Rifle won out for regular mech use.

TAG's range is 15 in the tabletop. You don't have the foggiest clue of its range in MWO.

Well smartass since you can't seem to debate civilly I'll take your stupid *** remark and reply. The fing ARROW IV, thats a four not a FIVE as you keep typing it for your uniformed self, has a range of five MAP SHEETS. So yes I do have a clue to the range of the system. And as was pointed out by your evidently illiterate self that can't read by the post above you, despite not being a 'linear' weapon, IT STILL ONLY DOES 20 POINTS OF DAMAGE, the same as the AC/20. It also has the same amount of ammo, just 5 shots. And to shoot over those hills, you would need someone spotting for you, otherwise its a wasted amount of space as you CAN'T HIT WHAT YOU CAN'T SEE. An LRM 20 can also shoot over hills and does 20 points of damage, but only weighs 10 tons, does that mean its going to replace the AC/20 to? I guess your to busy trying to act like a badass to think logically.

[MogCarns]

Damion Sparhawk, on 07 July 2012 - 09:07 PM, said:

simmer down saucy, the battletech title is waaaaay more developed than WoT which is why so many people get tired of people comparing them, even if everything goes perfectly, unless you're standing still and he manages a perfect bead on your back armor (and the missile comes from the same direction) chances are extraordinarily slim that it's going to one shot you, barring already having taken significant damage at the point of impact. Firstly, this weapon used in this manner is pretty much only going to be effective against very slow mediums heavy's and assault mech's, who have the armor to take a heavy hit and keep on trucking. At the absolute worst case scenario they'll hit an arm, explode some ammo and you'll lose that arm, but that's likely only one or two weapon systems, you're still kicking (metaphorically speaking) hurt yes, done? hell no, and now you not only know about the threat but you also probably have a really good idea which of your adversaries is carrying the paint, what's more, you can inform your team what you suspect and... he's either going to have to run for it or he's going to get annhialated leaving not one, but two mechs virtually useless on the field since your Arrow mech probably doesn't have a whole lot else going for it and even if it does, is probably to slow to bring much to bear rapidly.

This refutes my arguement how? It is still random damage from nowhere. I still have no reason to trust the source, or believe that anything other than a hack was used to make the shot.

Arty rarely kills you in one shot in WoT either. It takes a couple, usually. They hit you, they knock out your gun, or your tracks do you cannot move, lock your turret from rotating... that sort of thing. So I lose a hip, and drag myself along at 12kph for the rest of the game. Or I lose half my weapons... and now I go from being a feared combatant to something the Jenners shoot last on mop up.

[Damion Sparhawk]

MogCarns, on 07 July 2012 - 09:29 PM, said:

This refutes my arguement how? It is still random damage from nowhere. I still have no reason to trust the source, or believe that anything other than a hack was used to make the shot.

Arty rarely kills you in one shot in WoT either. It takes a couple, usually. They hit you, they knock out your gun, or your tracks do you cannot move, lock your turret from rotating... that sort of thing. So I lose a hip, and drag myself along at 12kph for the rest of the game. Or I lose half my weapons... and now I go from being a feared combatant to something the Jenners shoot last on mop up.

it's not random damage from nowhere, you forget you've got three teammates who, even if you don't see where it came from, have a pretty good chance of spotting either the incoming, or the tagging mech, and I also said that was a -worst case- I'm sorry but one shot from an AC/20 is not going to crack an Atlas or even a well armored heavy and most mediums, at best it'll go yellow if you've taken no damage so far (barring an ammo explosion) it's a REALLY BIG missile, it fires on an arc AND it (given what we've seen of LRM's) will most likely leave a fairly visible contrail. And if all that isn't terribly obvious then there's no point in continuing to argue with you. Go right ahead and cry hax while the rest of us enjoy a well made game utalizing rules that have been time tested for literal decades.

[MogCarns]

Tincan Nightmare, on 07 July 2012 - 09:28 PM, said:

Well smartass since you can't seem to debate civilly I'll take your stupid *** remark and reply. The fing ARROW IV, thats a four not a FIVE as you keep typing it for your uniformed self, has a range of five MAP SHEETS. So yes I do have a clue to the range of the system. And as was pointed out by your evidently illiterate self that can't read by the post above you, despite not being a 'linear' weapon, IT STILL ONLY DOES 20 POINTS OF DAMAGE, the same as the AC/20. It also has the same amount of ammo, just 5 shots. And to shoot over those hills, you would need someone spotting for you, otherwise its a wasted amount of space as you CAN'T HIT WHAT YOU CAN'T SEE. An LRM 20 can also shoot over hills and does 20 points of damage, but only weighs 10 tons, does that mean its going to replace the AC/20 to? I guess your to busy trying to act like a badass to think logically.

Hmm, a bait and switch on the first topic, then back to the bad analogy bucket.

We never debated the range of the Arrow. We do not know the range of TAG in MWO. In TT, is it 15, or 450m. We have no reason to assume that is the value in MWO. When losing, throw a wrench?

The LRM20, which has massive short range penalties, rarely hits for 20 damage, and when it does, spreads the damage all over. Thus, it is NOT a replacement for the AC/20, and does not render it obsolete. Very bad analogy, indeed.

[Spheroid]

I don't see how a player could hack the actual A4 round after it is launched since it would become a server tracked object.

The worst you could have would be TAG aimbotter but even then I have doubts since a hit still would not be guaranteed.

The Arrow IV needs skill and teamwork to function or it will bring nothing to the battle. I really don't think it will be any sort of uber weapon.

Edited by Spheroid, 07 July 2012 - 09:52 PM.

[MogCarns]

Damion Sparhawk, on 07 July 2012 - 09:37 PM, said:

it's not random damage from nowhere, you forget you've got three teammates who, even if you don't see where it came from, have a pretty good chance of spotting either the incoming, or the tagging mech, and I also said that was a -worst case- I'm sorry but one shot from an AC/20 is not going to crack an Atlas or even a well armored heavy and most mediums, at best it'll go yellow if you've taken no damage so far (barring an ammo explosion) it's a REALLY BIG missile, it fires on an arc AND it (given what we've seen of LRM's) will most likely leave a fairly visible contrail. And if all that isn't terribly obvious then there's no point in continuing to argue with you. Go right ahead and cry hax while the rest of us enjoy a well made game utalizing rules that have been time tested for literal decades.

Personally, I plan on having 11 teammates. I have no reason to think any of them can spot the Arrow shooting mech, located very far away on the enemy's side of the field. The TAG equipped mech, we may see. It likely moves very fast, and will likely be harder to kill than you think.

What makes you think there will be just one person shotting Arrows at you? Hell no, you can expect four of the damn things to come flying in.



You see, I have already played the game you describe. It works differently than you hope. These light tanks come screaming in, very fast, and are hard to hit. You become visible to the arty. The arty begins blowing the hell out of everyone not behind one of the four rocks that can block arty shots.

I am very, very tired of playing a game where the single biggest tactical decision is about keeping the magic damage from nowhere from falling on my head.

Spheroid, on 07 July 2012 - 09:49 PM, said:

I don't see how a player could hack the actual A4 round after it is launched since it would become a server tracked object.

The worst you could have would be TAG aimbotter but even then I have doubts since a hit still would not be guaranteed.

The Arrow IV needs skill and teamwork to function or it will bring nothing to the battle. I really don't think it will be any sort of uber weapon.

You hope.

[Damion Sparhawk]

MogCarns, on 07 July 2012 - 09:52 PM, said:

Personally, I plan on having 11 teammates. I have no reason to think any of them can spot the Arrow shooting mech, located very far away on the enemy's side of the field. The TAG equipped mech, we may see. It likely moves very fast, and will likely be harder to kill than you think.

What makes you think there will be just one person shotting Arrows at you? Hell no, you can expect four of the damn things to come flying in.



You see, I have already played the game you describe. It works differently than you hope. These light tanks come screaming in, very fast, and are hard to hit. You become visible to the arty. The arty begins blowing the hell out of everyone not behind one of the four rocks that can block arty shots.

I am very, very tired of playing a game where the single biggest tactical decision is about keeping the magic damage from nowhere from falling on my head.

you seem to be misunderstanding the methods required for engaging this weapon system, there is no 'lock on' auto hit effect, the mech providing the paint has to keep you trained and targetted until the missile actually impacts, it's exactly like a wire guided missile of today, you paint the target, the missile is fired, you have to keep the target painted until the missile actually hits or it is nothing more than a dumb ballistic strike falling on it's last trajectory. i.e. you make that painting mech move he's going to have a very hard time keeping the paint going, especially if he's being harrassed by more than one teammate, or even worse peppered by AC's.

Like I said, this is NOT WoT, quit comparing what you know from there to what you think is going to happen here. the arrow missile system doesn't work on the same targetting aquisition as LRM's BECAUSE it's a one shot missile, if it used the same targetting then you'd have a huge chance of completely missing EVERY SHOT, just like an LRM strike doesn't hit with every missile every time. To prevent this they incorperate the wire guided system allowing a teammate to paint a target, giving more reliable coordinates but also making the system far more vulnerable to interruption. Without that paint hardware the arrow is nothing more sophisticated than a single dumb MRM with enhanced range.

[Tincan Nightmare]

MogCarns, on 07 July 2012 - 09:41 PM, said:

Hmm, a bait and switch on the first topic, then back to the bad analogy bucket.

We never debated the range of the Arrow. We do not know the range of TAG in MWO. In TT, is it 15, or 450m. We have no reason to assume that is the value in MWO. When losing, throw a wrench?

The LRM20, which has massive short range penalties, rarely hits for 20 damage, and when it does, spreads the damage all over. Thus, it is NOT a replacement for the AC/20, and does not render it obsolete. Very bad analogy, indeed.

Yep oops I was too pissed and thought you were saying the range of the A4 instead of the TAG, though why they would change the range of that when everything shown so far has stayed true to the TT ranges is unknown, of course I'm sure you checked your magic 8ball to give you the answer. Its amazing how you want to come on here and rage about something that, since the game isn't out, you know nothing about to say 'no it shouldn't be in the game now I'm going to act like a teenage crybaby' when you have know idea how it will even perform. How do you know you will suddenly die out of the clear blue? How do you know that maybe the TAG beam won't be visible or give away the unit painting you's position? Its great that you can see into the future to know how the game is going to turn out so you can whine and cry about a game mechnaic you have NO idea how its going to work, IF it even shows up. Don't need to bait and switch with someone whos cyring and complaining about something they know nothing about.