339 replies to this topic

[Gas Guzzler]

Escef, on 24 September 2015 - 12:01 AM, said:

When was the last time you took 50 points of PPFLD from a Stalker? When was the last time you saw a Dire go over 54 kph? King Crab is one of the few assaults that can go toe-to-toe with a Dire and walk away looking for more victims.

Lol, that's funny, if I am in a Dire I see a King Crab and think "Oh awesome, a huge target for my 84 point alpha that can at best return fire with 57 damage."

But yeah, Stalker is better for sure, and I think the Banshee is also better.

[Gas Guzzler]

Nightshade24, on 24 September 2015 - 01:23 AM, said:

doesn't the king crab able to out do most direwolf builds?

Rather it be 2 x ER PPC + 2 x Gauss rifle
3 x Large pulse laser/ ER large laser + 2 gauss rifle (should mention this will always beat a direwolf 450 meters away due to ghost heat not present on those 3 larger laser combo's. If you want to compare shorter range damage potentual then I think you can easily spam SRM's to make up for that on the direwolf... not that it matters)
And in terms of 6 x u/ac 2 boating + a large laser/ other weapon of some kind the kingcrab beats it here as well... ish?

WTF??????

First of all, can't do 3 LPL and Dual gauss without an XL.
3 LL and dual gauss is probably the best you can do. So 57 damage at 495 (with range mod), vs 84 damage at 445 (range mod). Yeah no, King Crab builds do not out do Dire Wolf builds. There is a reason 0 King Crabs are used in competitive play and Dires are used. Occasionally you will see a Stalker.


BTW, did you know that 2 cLPL and 2 Gauss rifles is a 56 damage alpha at 600+ m, vs the King Crab at 57 dmg at 495 m. Then you add 3-4 cERMLs for more alpha power on the Dire...

There really is no comparison.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 24 September 2015 - 10:01 AM.

[lshtaria]

Too many pages for me to read unfortunately so I'll just have to respond to the OP.

Personally I'm disappointed with the Black Knight, not because it's terribad or it doesn't have 17 high mounted lasers but because a very well-known mech just hasn't translated well to the game. I'm not one of those who has to insist that every single new mech has to be comp meta viable and I don't even want every new mech to be "better" than the last. I just think that some mechs could really have been better than what they are, the BK being one of them.

The R2 pack as a whole is dreadfully poor really. Was it really necessary to choose 3 laser barfers for the pack? Whilst laser barf is the current meta, it's only IS meta for those super-quirked chassis. Without these quirks, IS barf is terribly poor and just can't compete with the clans in pretty much any way really.

I suppose that's my beef really, the pack as a whole and not the BK or, inevitably, the CRB. It was all laid out to me in black and white before I purchased though. Twice I almost went through with a refund but I stuck with it. Do I regret not getting a refund? Yes I do, however at the same time you won't hear me ranting and raving about anything in the pack because I laid down my money knowing full well what I was paying for.

Edited by Kyocera, 24 September 2015 - 10:16 AM.

[MischiefSC]

So here's the hard pill to swallow.

If your sub par favorite mech is actually so great, why aren't you out crushing tournaments with it? Why are you no the grim reaper of tier 1 play? Competitive players are people who have the most fun in the game by doing better and winning they are going to gravitate to what is consistently effective. LRMs, ppc+ac, gauss+erppc, Splatcats, it changes when game balance changes. It isn't some strange conspiracy to limit what mechs are played it is adaptation to what plays best.

That is it.

If "the meta" is wrong and all the top performing players "just don't get it" Then go prove them wrong. They will turn on a dime and you'll have made a new meta. The problem is that the players in question are constantly tweaking builds, tactics and meta to find an advantage and they've been doing it longer and more successfully.

Why do you think all the top performing teams have pretty much universally gone Clans? Because PGI Has left balance broken for two years and aggressively refused to fix it, instead doubling down on it with every single mech releases putting up Clan mechs in T1 and T2 with a few T3s while IS mechs are released as T4 with a few T5s and T3s.

Quirks were created to fix this (though at the time most of us raged that they should just fix IS/Clan balance) but even quirks aside the bulk of recent IS mechs have been gimped by build at their core.

[Deathlike]

Just a small thinking rant...

Back when I reviewed Grasshoppers, I forget if I discussed the 5P (because it was part of a bonus for buying Resistance Pack 2 in full) and my thought on that variant was that it sucked because you had literally no arm weapons... which in some ways was a bad thing (you don't have full range, and yet the 5J was terrible just as well due to lacking side torso weapons).

The thing that I kinda took for granted were the heat gen quirks.

By default, the 6B is actually the "best variant". The "7" variant shows "a little bit" of promise with its 3rd Energy Hardpoint in the Right Torso, but that's just it... (that's before we even bother with the squishy CT). Having a 375XL engine (like the Timberwolf) is a bit overrated in the "7L" variant. Of course, the Resistance variant (or many of the special IS variants) is usually the garbage one.

So, it's one of those things where one wonders why bother selling or buying IS packs.

It is what it is.

[CDLord HHGD]

MischiefSC, on 24 September 2015 - 11:32 AM, said:

So here's the hard pill to swallow.

If your sub par favorite mech is actually so great, why aren't you out crushing tournaments with it? Why are you no the grim reaper of tier 1 play? Competitive players are people who have the most fun in the game by doing better and winning they are going to gravitate to what is consistently effective. LRMs, ppc+ac, gauss+erppc, Splatcats, it changes when game balance changes. It isn't some strange conspiracy to limit what mechs are played it is adaptation to what plays best.

That is it.

If "the meta" is wrong and all the top performing players "just don't get it" Then go prove them wrong. They will turn on a dime and you'll have made a new meta. The problem is that the players in question are constantly tweaking builds, tactics and meta to find an advantage and they've been doing it longer and more successfully.

Why do you think all the top performing teams have pretty much universally gone Clans? Because PGI Has left balance broken for two years and aggressively refused to fix it, instead doubling down on it with every single mech releases putting up Clan mechs in T1 and T2 with a few T3s while IS mechs are released as T4 with a few T5s and T3s.

Quirks were created to fix this (though at the time most of us raged that they should just fix IS/Clan balance) but even quirks aside the bulk of recent IS mechs have been gimped by build at their core.

I don't want a new Meta. I want all you tryhards to realize that your insta-gib super-low TTK builds are discouraging players. Your use of meta and then comment about how balance isn't, is just as bad as the teams who posted how they intentionally exploited the system for science during the last challenge.

I have it out to PGI asking if this is what they want. If they say that this is defacto what they want, I'll drop it. Until then, I will rail against the meta every turn. Until then, using meta is against the spirit of the game and does more damage overall.

But you know what? Nothing I say will change your mind. Nothing you say will change mine. As long as PGI is trying, I know I'm in the right. Enjoy having to rewrite your doctrine every time there's a balance change. Mine's been the same since closed beta.

[Aggravated Assault Mech]

Kyocera, on 24 September 2015 - 10:15 AM, said:

Too many pages for me to read unfortunately so I'll just have to respond to the OP.

Personally I'm disappointed with the Black Knight, not because it's terribad or it doesn't have 17 high mounted lasers but because a very well-known mech just hasn't translated well to the game. I'm not one of those who has to insist that every single new mech has to be comp meta viable and I don't even want every new mech to be "better" than the last. I just think that some mechs could really have been better than what they are, the BK being one of them.

The R2 pack as a whole is dreadfully poor really. Was it really necessary to choose 3 laser barfers for the pack? Whilst laser barf is the current meta, it's only IS meta for those super-quirked chassis. Without these quirks, IS barf is terribly poor and just can't compete with the clans in pretty much any way really.

I suppose that's my beef really, the pack as a whole and not the BK or, inevitably, the CRB. It was all laid out to me in black and white before I purchased though. Twice I almost went through with a refund but I stuck with it. Do I regret not getting a refund? Yes I do, however at the same time you won't hear me ranting and raving about anything in the pack because I laid down my money knowing full well what I was paying for.

What sucks about the pack is that it suggested that IS was going to get some pretty serious laser boats. It suggested that even if these mechs weren't particularly interesting variant-wise, they'd at least potentially fit the meta as well as an IS mech can.

Sadly I doubt the Crab or Wolfhound will be any different than the Black Knight. Does anyone really expect the Crab to be better than the HBK-4P with this sort of direction on perks? The Wolfhound any better than the Firestarter?

The funniest thing about R2 is that the mech I was looking forward to the least (Mauler) is now one of my favorites. Even if it isn't high tier meta, at least it feels like it added something new to the IS arsenal.

Edited by vnlk65n, 24 September 2015 - 12:07 PM.

[MischiefSC]

cdlord, on 24 September 2015 - 11:55 AM, said:

I don't want a new Meta. I want all you tryhards to realize that your insta-gib super-low TTK builds are discouraging players. Your use of meta and then comment about how balance isn't, is just as bad as the teams who posted how they intentionally exploited the system for science during the last challenge.

I have it out to PGI asking if this is what they want. If they say that this is defacto what they want, I'll drop it. Until then, I will rail against the meta every turn. Until then, using meta is against the spirit of the game and does more damage overall.

But you know what? Nothing I say will change your mind. Nothing you say will change mine. As long as PGI is trying, I know I'm in the right. Enjoy having to rewrite your doctrine every time there's a balance change. Mine's been the same since closed beta.

What you're missing is that everyone, especially competitive players, want a better balanced game. I'm a huge fan of slower ttk and have been vocal about PGI Needing to balance mechs as evenly as possible. The problem is that the balance is so bad now that NOT running peak meta puts you at a significant disadvantage.

What you're railing against is the same thing comp teams and average Joe players like me who enjoy a more competitive game experience since closed beta. Think of it like a perpetual arms race - if you don't stockpile nukes and the other guy does you're screwed. Doesn't mean you want nuclear war.

When/if PGI actually balances stuff, awesome. They have studiously avoided doing so since closed beta. The reality of play right now is mechs T1 to T5 and quirks helping bridge the is/Clan gap. The solution to this isn't just only releasing is mechs that are universally inferior to their Clan counterparts and even previously released IS mechs. That just solidifies existing balance issues, it doesn't fix anything.

[lshtaria]

vnlk65n, on 24 September 2015 - 12:06 PM, said:

What sucks about the pack is that it suggested that IS was going to get some pretty serious laser boats. It suggested that even if these mechs weren't particularly interesting variant-wise, they'd at least potentially fit the meta as well as an IS mech can.

Sadly I doubt the Crab or Wolfhound will be any different than the Black Knight. Does anyone really expect the Crab to be better than the HBK-4P with this sort of direction on perks? The Wolfhound any better than the Firestarter?

The funniest thing about R2 is that the mech I was looking forward to the least (Mauler) is now one of my favorites. Even if it isn't high tier meta, at least it feels like it added something new to the IS arsenal.

I genuinely think the CRB is going to be one of the very worst mechs in the game

[LordBraxton]

MischiefSC, on 24 September 2015 - 12:20 PM, said:

What you're missing is that everyone, especially competitive players, want a better balanced game. I'm a huge fan of slower ttk and have been vocal about PGI Needing to balance mechs as evenly as possible. The problem is that the balance is so bad now that NOT running peak meta puts you at a significant disadvantage.

What you're railing against is the same thing comp teams and average Joe players like me who enjoy a more competitive game experience since closed beta. Think of it like a perpetual arms race - if you don't stockpile nukes and the other guy does you're screwed. Doesn't mean you want nuclear war.

When/if PGI actually balances stuff, awesome. They have studiously avoided doing so since closed beta. The reality of play right now is mechs T1 to T5 and quirks helping bridge the is/Clan gap. The solution to this isn't just only releasing is mechs that are universally inferior to their Clan counterparts and even previously released IS mechs. That just solidifies existing balance issues, it doesn't fix anything.

the arms race analogy is all too apt

it has led to a state of 'mutually assured boredom,' as everyone is forced to bring pinpoint (clan) laser mechs designed for the 300-600m range bracket and

[Mad Strike]

Guys stop crying for the arm hardpoints , really.

Do you even know how to build a mech or use the mechlab ?

You want your black knight to have his ppc mounted on the side arm ?

Ok is easy , take out both ppc and medium laser.....put first the medium laser and the the ppc.

That's it , simple !!!! Now the ppc is mounted on the sidearm.

Is amasing how useless some people are to the point they just don't eve try to solve such a simple "problem".

Edited by strikebrch, 24 September 2015 - 12:55 PM.

[MischiefSC]

The best thing to make the game more enjoyable for everyone from comp tryhard to entry level tier 5s is better game balance. If the Timber Wolf was about equal to a Orion then you would see more Orions in every level of play. Everyone wants more available options. The only difference is how you deal with the broken balance - either by playing sub-par mechs, getting hammered and being pissed at the guy who rolled you with the meta build or by playing what works best in the broken game balance and being pissed at PGI for refusing to balance the game so if you want to play to win you only have a handful of options.

[Gas Guzzler]

In all seriousness guys, finally got a chance to play the Black Knight last night. Its glaring issue right now, is that the CT is too hittable from all angles. I'm hoping that the changes to the neck and head do not destroy its XL viability. Other than that, I enjoyed playing them. Yes, the Grasshoppers jump jets allow it more shots. But I do like that some of the variants got range quirks, and the sheer firepower of the 6B build I'm running is super fun.

You just have to play it differently and understand that there are certain trades you aren't going to win due to your low hardpoints, which unfortunately I think is going to have an impact on its average damage output because you are limited more than you are with say a Grasshopper or QKD-5K. I see myself running these in a pack in CW and getting frustrated because I can't take shots due to teammates being in front of me and not being able to hop up on something and get a shot off. That being said, if you poke from the right places it can do a lot of damage.

[MischiefSC]

Gas Guzzler, on 24 September 2015 - 12:59 PM, said:

In all seriousness guys, finally got a chance to play the Black Knight last night. Its glaring issue right now, is that the CT is too hittable from all angles. I'm hoping that the changes to the neck and head do not destroy its XL viability. Other than that, I enjoyed playing them. Yes, the Grasshoppers jump jets allow it more shots. But I do like that some of the variants got range quirks, and the sheer firepower of the 6B build I'm running is super fun.

You just have to play it differently and understand that there are certain trades you aren't going to win due to your low hardpoints, which unfortunately I think is going to have an impact on its average damage output because you are limited more than you are with say a Grasshopper or QKD-5K. I see myself running these in a pack in CW and getting frustrated because I can't take shots due to teammates being in front of me and not being able to hop up on something and get a shot off. That being said, if you poke from the right places it can do a lot of damage.

So what is it doing better than the Hopper or Thuds? Or BMs or Stalkers? Not being sarcastic, wanting to know what it brings that makes it a good choice vs other options.

[CDLord HHGD]

MischiefSC, on 24 September 2015 - 12:20 PM, said:

What you're missing is that everyone, especially competitive players, want a better balanced game. I'm a huge fan of slower ttk and have been vocal about PGI Needing to balance mechs as evenly as possible. The problem is that the balance is so bad now that NOT running peak meta puts you at a significant disadvantage.

What you're railing against is the same thing comp teams and average Joe players like me who enjoy a more competitive game experience since closed beta. Think of it like a perpetual arms race - if you don't stockpile nukes and the other guy does you're screwed. Doesn't mean you want nuclear war.

When/if PGI actually balances stuff, awesome. They have studiously avoided doing so since closed beta. The reality of play right now is mechs T1 to T5 and quirks helping bridge the is/Clan gap. The solution to this isn't just only releasing is mechs that are universally inferior to their Clan counterparts and even previously released IS mechs. That just solidifies existing balance issues, it doesn't fix anything.

So if we're gonna wait till someone balances it for us, I guess. What if that balance is the removal of the mechlab? What if balance is never achieved and people leave due to my aforementioned points leaving MWO a ghost town (like CW, because of the meta), and the eventual shutdown of the game? At some point, we, the players, have to take responsibility. I do, every drop, where I refuse the meta. It's not an easy grind. I am actually surprised I am even T3. I just think the comp players have a responsibility to not meta out and PWN with ease "because they let us".

[Gas Guzzler]

MischiefSC, on 24 September 2015 - 01:06 PM, said:

So what is it doing better than the Hopper or Thuds? Or BMs or Stalkers? Not being sarcastic, wanting to know what it brings that makes it a good choice vs other options.

Well...

none of those can bring a heat manageable 63 pt laser vomit alpha at 340 m with 3 LPLs that reach out to 447m, with a 10% heat gen quirk whilst running 83 kph..

Fun fact, thats a ~54 damage alpha at 445 m..

I'm not trying to say its like comp level or anything, and it definitely has its limitations.. but its not TERRIBLE.

ref: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...fce2ee15225d90b

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 24 September 2015 - 01:14 PM.

[Victorion]

Gas Guzzler, on 24 September 2015 - 01:09 PM, said:

Well...

none of those can bring a heat manageable 63 pt laser vomit alpha at 340 m with 3 LPLs that reach out to 447m, with a 10% heat gen quirk whilst running 83 kph..

Fun fact, thats a ~54 damage alpha at 445 m..

I'm not trying to say its like comp level or anything, and it definitely has its limitations.. but its not TERRIBLE.

ref: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...fce2ee15225d90b

This is basically what I've been trying to say the whole time.

[xVLFBERHxT]

I love the Black Knight.
Got good results (the bad results go back mostly on the lack of teamwork). The Mech works for me. Whether he is comparable with the Timberwolf or has a high place in the tier system, is not important to me. Will probably my standard IS heavy mech and gets a place in my deck.

[MischiefSC]

cdlord, on 24 September 2015 - 01:07 PM, said:

So if we're gonna wait till someone balances it for us, I guess. What if that balance is the removal of the mechlab? What if balance is never achieved and people leave due to my aforementioned points leaving MWO a ghost town (like CW, because of the meta), and the eventual shutdown of the game? At some point, we, the players, have to take responsibility. I do, every drop, where I refuse the meta. It's not an easy grind. I am actually surprised I am even T3. I just think the comp players have a responsibility to not meta out and PWN with ease "because they let us".

So your solution is for people to voluntarily use only bad builds?

Look PGI badly balanced the game. Then they said they would us quirks to bad bad designs balanced with good ones. Now they are refusing to actually use quirks to do that, at best quirkiness to T3.

Ideally meta should be such a tiny difference it only matters in top level competitive matches. Unfortunately that's not the case. Why don't you just say everyone should only play IS mechs until balance is fixed? That's just not a realistic option. The problem is the you're upset at players for playing not just what pgi made the game to be but what PGI encouraged. Look at all the contests and challenges PGIs put out around peak mechs/meta/cw. This isn't people exploiting anything - this is them playing how pgi is encouraging and rewarding them to play, and we are all yelling at pgi we want balance. The people crying against balance are a narrow group who are nowhere near tryhards. They are scrubs who want op stuff to make them feel like they're better than they are.

Again - nobody wants game balance more than people who enjoy competitive play. It's not just that a couple things are exploitable, it's that game balance overall is badly skewed and playing the op stuff is strongly rewarded and encouraged by pgi.

Gas Guzzler, on 24 September 2015 - 01:09 PM, said:

Well...

none of those can bring a heat manageable 63 pt laser vomit alpha at 340 m with 3 LPLs that reach out to 447m, with a 10% heat gen quirk whilst running 83 kph..

Fun fact, thats a ~54 damage alpha at 445 m..

I'm not trying to say its like comp level or anything, and it definitely has its limitations.. but its not TERRIBLE.

ref: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...fce2ee15225d90b

Would you work it into your CW deck instead of the other options? What would you replace with it?

Edited by MischiefSC, 24 September 2015 - 01:51 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Gas Guzzler, on 24 September 2015 - 01:09 PM, said:

Well...

none of those can bring a heat manageable 63 pt laser vomit alpha at 340 m with 3 LPLs that reach out to 447m, with a 10% heat gen quirk whilst running 83 kph..

Fun fact, thats a ~54 damage alpha at 445 m..

I'm not trying to say its like comp level or anything, and it definitely has its limitations.. but its not TERRIBLE.

ref: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...fce2ee15225d90b

I decided to apply some Math/Matlab skillz.



As you can see, Timber Wolf with TC1 has a significant advantage over about 450 m.

This one below is "Damage per heat per double heat sink" if you will. Takes into account heat generated (including heat gen quirks) and number of heat sinks that the mech has, 19 vs 24 in this case. I understand that yes, this is not the perfect relation ship, because both mechs have 10 true dubs, and the Bk has 9 poordubs while the timber has 14. I know, but I didn't want to make it too complicated. Still, an interesting result despite the possible oversimplification.



Actually its not that bad. Here is damage per heat generated per heat dissipated. While the actual value isn't very useful, it basically shows that up until roughly~360-370 m, the BK is doing damage a little more heat efficiently than a Timber Wolf, whereas beyond that the Timber Wolf will have a very significant advantage.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 24 September 2015 - 02:14 PM.